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Posted: 10/31/2004 11:09:01 AM EST
Hi,
My wife and I are new to the AR scene but have numerous other guns. ( We both have concealed carry permits and enjoy target shooting). My wife is quite petite and wants a light comfortable gun. My research so far has lead me to the Bushmaster "Lady" Carbon 15. I am hoping to be able to order it with a collapsible stock if this is available for it. The EOTech 552 is the sight I'm leaning towards at this point.
For myself I plan on ordering a Les Baer M4 Flattop and will probably also go with the EOTech sight.
Any insight or opinions would be welcome. Cost is not much of an issue but my wife is more frugal and doesn't want to spend as much on hers as I will on mine!
TIA
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:15:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 11:15:51 AM EST by markm]
Forget the Carbon junk, in my opinion. And forget wasting money on Les Baer. I think most here will agree that you'd be paying way to much for the name! Whatever you do, avoid Olympic Arms like the PLAGUE.

I think you'd like a couple of Bushmaster's Real AR-15's. I like Eagle/Armalite and Colt myself. But Rock River Arms seems to have a favorable following here too.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:16:27 AM EST
First things first - Welcome to ARFCOM.



Then I think you're right. Bushmaster is a good choice from several perspectives - quality is quite high and if there happens to be a problem for some reason their warantee is good too. Lady or lightweight (pencil barrel) for your wife is probably a smart. Lightweight would have a collapsible stock so it might be more adjustable for her size. A3 version is more adaptable also.

You didn't mention your personal interests though?
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:24:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By markm:
Forget the Carbon junk, in my opinion. And forget wasting money on Les Baer.
I think you'd like a couple of Bushmaster's Real AR-15's. I like Eagle/Armalite and Colt myself. But Rock River Arms seems to have a favorable following here too.



I FULLY agree with that!

My wife's AR has the standard A2 buttstock on it and she's petite too, that stock is too long for her. We will probably put a collapsable buttstock on it for her to decrease the length of pull.
But my Mrs. handles the AR just fine!
Again, I fully agree with markm's quote above!
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:31:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 11:38:18 AM EST by DrT]

Originally Posted By 4get_No1:
First things first - Welcome to ARFCOM.

hen
You didn't mention your personal interests though?


Thanks for the welcome.
We're both mainly interested in recreational target shooting.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:31:43 AM EST
welcome
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:38:12 AM EST
Why not just get a matching his/hers set of Bushmaster AR15s? You can get a top quality Bushy AR15 M4 A3 type for around $850 each, and you'd each have AWESOME rifles. Then, you can send hers in to get refinished pink or purple or something like that, and you'd still be spending less than the Lady AR + LesBaer. That's what I would do (minus the part about painting it purple or pink)
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:57:34 AM EST
Skip the Carbon 15 POS. You should each order Bushmasters with flat-top uppers and 16" pencil barrels. The lowers should have the carbine retractable stocks. Order a pair of ARMS #40 BUIS sights and then worry about optics when the time comes and funds allow.

You'll thank me later.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:10:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 12:13:55 PM EST by DrT]
Purple or pink... I'll have to ask herheThe reason I'm intersted in the Les Baer is their reputation for great quality and reliability. Guaranteed 1/2"MOA. I realize this is beyond my capabilities at this point but in all my hobbies I like to use equipment that is beyond my personal abilities. For example, I'm into downhill mountain biking and have a bike that costs over $4000. A lot of younger guys told me "dude, the way you ride you could spend half that much and have a bike that is just fine!" However, the stability, handling and reliability of this bike makes it more than worth it. (If you saw some of the trails we ride you would realize a mechanical failure could be career ending or worse). Same thing goes for the cars I drive. I can never hope to be able to drive up to my car's limit ( It's a 911 turbo and I go to the track a few times a year) but the quality and safety it delivers is worth it to me. I'm figuring it's the same thing with the Les Baer. Because of my limited ability, my shooting may be just as accurate with a rifle at half the cost but as I improve the rifle is there for me and I'm sure that after shooting the Les Baer if I went to a "lesser" rifle I would probably notice it. Maybe I'm wrong but as they say, it's only money
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:24:03 PM EST
All the carbon 15s I have seen on the firing line at the local ranges I frequent have been jam-o-matics.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:48:27 PM EST
Les Baer rifles are chambered for .223 and not 5.56mm (IIRC). You'll probably end up shooting .223 only, or face extraction problems.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:56:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Les Baer rifles are chambered for .223 and not 5.56mm (IIRC). You'll probably end up shooting .223 only, or face extraction problems.


So if it's chambered for .223 you can't shoot 5.56mm but if it's chambered for 5.56mm you can use either? What is the significance of this? When would I want to use .223 instead of 5.56mm or visaversa?
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:57:47 PM EST
Got to play with a Carbon 15 at the range this past summer, and most of my trigger time on it was spent clearing jams, with USGI mags and M193. NOT a good gun. And I don't think you can get the tele stocks for them either. SKIP IT.

Now, you obviously have money to burn here. Get your wife this one except with a real telestock, A2 flash hider, and A3 upper with removable carry handle. Good to go.

Go over to the industry section and get MSTN to build you a primo rifle out of LMT components. They build rifles for security contrators in Iraq, rifles that see real combat. They KNOW reliablility, and have a very good rep here. I think you will be much better off quality wise, and may actually wind up spending less.

Next, sell the Porsche to me for $10,000, and go buy a registered M16 with the money!

Good luck, and welcome to the board!
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:58:58 PM EST
Welcome to the site.

Mike
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:59:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 1:00:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By DrT:

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Les Baer rifles are chambered for .223 and not 5.56mm (IIRC). You'll probably end up shooting .223 only, or face extraction problems.


So if it's chambered for .223 you can't shoot 5.56mm but if it's chambered for 5.56mm you can use either? What is the significance of this? When would I want to use .223 instead of 5.56mm or visaversa?



5.56 chambers are slightly longer, as the military 5.56 ammo is slightly more powerful than .223 Rem. Using milsurp ammo in a .223 chamber is going to result in stuck cases. Get a rifle with a chrome lined bore and chamber, 1 in 9" rifling twist rate. That will stabilize 55grn thru 69 grn ammo pretty well.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 1:01:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 1:01:50 PM EST by bfieldburt]
Correct. Don't get a .223 rifle. Go for the Nato .556. That will allow you to shoot both and to use good quality surplus ammo also.

And +1 on what innocent bystander said....

>> Skip the Carbon 15 POS. You should each order Bushmasters with flat-top uppers and 16" pencil barrels. The lowers should have the carbine retractable stocks. Order a pair of ARMS #40 BUIS sights and then worry about optics when the time comes and funds allow.

Follow his advice and you will be sittin' pretty.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 1:05:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 1:12:33 PM EST by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By DrT:
The reason I'm intersted in the Les Baer is their reputation for great quality and reliability. Guaranteed 1/2"MOA. I realize this is beyond my capabilities at this point but in all my hobbies I like to use equipment that is beyond my personal abilities. ...

Maybe I'm wrong but as they say, it's only money



I'm the exact same way, which is why I bought Colt's. Not saying anything other than them having the best reputation for reliability and performance, as well as being the most proven and tested AR type in military combat. Being that you have such good taste in designer brands, a Colt is one that you can own with pride.

As if you didn't see this coming... I do have a Colt LE6920 (Law Enforcement Carbine) that is available for sale. It wont come cheap though as, even though there are a couple of 'comparable' rifles out there, this one has more of a collectors appeal because of the RESTRICTED FOR LE/MIL/GOV USE ONLY markings they have on them from Colt. It also has the chrome lined, 1/7" twist (not 1/9"), step cut barrel, and a few other goodies to boot. If you don't already know, Colt stopped producing these for the civilian market. This rifle was made by COLT DEFENSE, not COLT MFG for use in law enforcement and the military. If you're interested in it, drop me an email/IM, but I can tell you now that it's not cheap.

This (link below) is NEARLY the same rifle in Bushmaster form, with the exception of the barrel, markings, and maybe something else (other than the brand name)

Closest Bushmaster to the Colt LE6920
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 1:27:21 PM EST
You might also consider buying a LMT lower and upper.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 1:34:47 PM EST
As a previous owner of a carbon 15---STAY AWAY. The problems HAVE NOT been worked out. After a few rounds the feed ramp, where it changes from metal to carbon, gets dents that WILL hang up rounds. Get the lightweight bushy with the pencil barrel---not that much heavier and you can actually accessorize it.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 1:40:23 PM EST
Sorry for the NOOB question but if I remove the carry handle from the Bushmaster Superlight (A3 upper) and mount the EOTech 552 (or similar) sight, will the permanent looking front sight on the barrel be in the way?
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 3:40:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 3:42:32 PM EST by DrT]
OK,
After searching I think I'm beginning to understand the sight issues and will be avoiding the Carbon 15. What do you guys think of the following for the wife?
The Bushmaster Superlight Click here
With a collapsible stock
The ARMS #40L BUIS Sight Click here
The 0.40 higher front sight Click here
The EOTech 552 sight Click here

What else should I consider for her rifle? Possibly a compensator to reduce perceived recoil? What would you recommend? I would like to order her rifle tommorow.
Thanks for all the help so far
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 3:47:44 PM EST
In a word...

BUSHMASTER

Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:02:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By DrT:
Purple or pink... I'll have to ask her
I know the original Carbon 15s manufactured by PO had problems but I thought that Bushmaster had worked them out? The "lady" sounds like a great rifle for her..... only 3.9lbs, match grade stainless steel barrel, detachable compensator.......add a collapsible stock so it fits her and it sounds great.
The reason I'm intersted in the Les Baer is their reputation for great quality and reliability. Guaranteed 1/2"MOA. I realize this is beyond my capabilities at this point but in all my hobbies I like to use equipment that is beyond my personal abilities. For example, I'm into downhill mountain biking and have a bike that costs over $4000. A lot of younger guys told me "dude, the way you ride you could spend half that much and have a bike that is just fine!" However, the stability, handling and reliability of this bike makes it more than worth it. (If you saw some of the trails we ride you would realize a mechanical failure could be career ending or worse). Same thing goes for the cars I drive. I can never hope to be able to drive up to my car's limit ( It's a 911 turbo and I go to the track a few times a year) but the quality and safety it delivers is worth it to me. I'm figuring it's the same thing with the Les Baer. Because of my limited ability, my shooting may be just as accurate with a rifle at half the cost but as I improve the rifle is there for me and I'm sure that after shooting the Les Baer if I went to a "lesser" rifle I would probably notice it. Maybe I'm wrong but as they say, it's only money



To use your same comparison, buying a Wilson or Les Baer would be like buying a high performance street bike, NOT like buying a high end off road bike. They offer accuracy at the expence of durability, reliabilty, and utility.

In other words, you figured wrong.

If you want to pay top coin for a top notch AR, MSTN is a good place to go.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:08:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 4:21:20 PM EST by CJan_NH]
Despite my warnings to the contrary, my wife wanted me to buy her a Carbon 15 Lady.

I ended up buying it and to put it simply, my initial fears came to life before my eyes.

Given a choice I would not buy another one until Bushmaster gets them sorted out. The most frustrating thing is that it's a great little rig to shoot for the first couple of mags, but once it gets hot the fun is pretty much over-it transforms itself into the jam-o-matic from hell.

What is almost as frustrating is that one of our friends bought one for his fiance, and hers runs like a raped ape with no problems whatsoever.

Edited to add:


What else should I consider for her rifle? Possibly a compensator to reduce perceived recoil? What would you recommend? I would like to order her rifle tommorow.

A good training class for the both of you will help you hone your skills and teach you the proper manual of arms for the AR. Even if you are an expert who has been around guns your whole life a training class led by a competent instructor will help you wring the most enjoyment out of your new rifles
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:13:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 4:46:16 PM EST by bfieldburt]

Originally Posted By DrT:
OK,
After searching I think I'm beginning to understand the sight issues and will be avoiding the Carbon 15. What do you guys think of the following for the wife?
The Bushmaster Superlight Click here
With a collapsible stock
The ARMS #40L BUIS Sight Click here
The 0.40 higher front sight Click here
The EOTech 552 sight Click here

What else should I consider for her rifle? Possibly a compensator to reduce perceived recoil? What would you recommend? I would like to order her rifle tommorow.
Thanks for all the help so far



Great set up. I don't think you could go wrong with that. As far as a "compensator". Not necessary. We're talkin' about a 5.56 round. The rifle will come with an FS (flash suppressor). A muzzle break shouldn't be needed. I know plenty of females that shot ARs and have never needed a muzzle break. One last little accessory you might consider. A "Battle Grip". It replaced the normal, uncomfortable pistol grip and it also holds extra batteries for the Eotech. With all that, you should be good to go.
----------------------------
ADD: I just looked at the Superlight photo on Bushmaster's website. In the pic it doesn't have a flash suppressor. Because that barrel is littler than standard, maybe an A2 FS won't fit on it. Get an FS if you can, but, if not, I still wouldn't add a muzzle break. You can have your wife shoot the gun, if she thinks it still kicks too much, you can have a break added later by a local gunsmith for not too much. Again, it probably won't be needed though.
-----------------------------------
ADD #2: Your front sight/Eotech question.

Yes, the front site block will be in the way of the Eotech. That is called "co-witnessing". That is so, if the Eotech goes out on you, you can still use your iron sites and not get killed by the bad guys. Some people like their sights to "absolute co-witness". That means that the Eotech dot and the iron sites line up exactly. Some people only want their iron sites in the bottom 3rd of the Eotech--so that the Eotech dot floats above the iron sites. To get the Eotech to do this, you need to get a riser for the Eotech instead of mounting it directly on the a3 flattop rail. Also, you have a third cholce. Some people get a new collapsable front site base put on. That way they can lay down their rear and front iron sites and
just use the Eotech unobstructed. Then, if the Eotech goes out, you can flip up the rear and front iron sites and just use them through the dead glass of the Eotech.

Now, one potential problem: with that little barrel on the Superlight, you might not get a fold-down after market front sight block to fit. Also, you might not be able to have a flash suppressor as mentioned above. Which leads me to the final question.

Do you really want a "Superlight"? How small is your wife?

A 16" barreled "M4" isn't that heavy anyway. The M4 barrel is also littler/thinner to shave wait (as compared to a nomral Hbar (heavy barrel). And, with a collapsable stock, and the gun only being 30 or 31" anyway, you're wife shouldn't have any problems with it.

Final note: this also would make the rifle easier to sell if your wife decides she doesn't like evil black guns after all.
--------------------------
Comments by other board members on the "Superlight" would be appreciated.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:29:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 4:38:56 PM EST by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By DrT:
Sorry for the NOOB question but if I remove the carry handle from the Bushmaster Superlight (A3 upper) and mount the EOTech 552 (or similar) sight, will the permanent looking front sight on the barrel be in the way?



If you mount the EOTech directly to the flat top upper, the front iron sight/base will be seen through the lens of the EOTech or any NON-magnified optic mounted directly on the flat top. It's supposed to be that way. It's actually a good thing because it keeps your aiming stance/positioning consistent for when using the optics or not (iron sights). What you do is purchase and mount a rear flip up backup iron sight (BUIS) behind the EOTech that will CO-WITNESSES with your EOTech (there are many options). I use a GG&G MAD BUIS with my EOTech 552 mounted directly on the flat top.

Now I'm just going to see if I've got this image hosting thing figured out... plust a little showing off. I'm a terrible photographer. I'm not really that good with lighting.

This is a COWITNESSING shot looking through the large apature on the GG&G MAD through the EOTech. This is a TERRIBLE photograph. What's difficult to see is that you are looking at the reticle THROUGH the BUIS and that it's perfectly alligned with the front iron sight. It's beautiful!



This is a shot of the setup with the sight in the up position.



This is with the sight folded down.



If you don't like the Co-witnessing, you can always buy a quick detach mount that raises the EOTech up a bit.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:31:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By DrT:
We're both mainly interested in recreational target shooting.



... no problems with zombies on your island?
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:41:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 4:42:16 PM EST by bfieldburt]
I just saw that NiceGuyMr just answered many of the same questions I just answered. And he added pics!!

But back to the "Superlight" (see my previous post).

Does this thin barrel allow for the addition of standard flip down after market FSBs?

And how about a standard flash suppressor?

If not, I'd bag the Superlight and just go with an M4 (semi-civilian version) which, of course, isn't that heavy anyway, and which is used by females in the miltary right now as is.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 5:06:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 5:09:20 PM EST by Remman]


ADD: I just looked at the Superlight photo on Bushmaster's website. In the pic it doesn't have a flash suppressor. Because that barrel is littler than standard, maybe an A2 FS won't fit on it. Get an FS if you can, but, if not, I still wouldn't add a muzzle break.





Thats a bushmaster superlight with a A2 FH.

I would go with MSTN. They built the flat top which is waiting on a TA31, SureFire, Magpull grip and a sling. The the A2 carry handle rifle is a Bushy M4 that needs a vortex and a new grip.




Remman

edit: wording
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 6:14:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By DrT:
Hi,
My wife and I are new to the AR scene but have numerous other guns. ( We both have concealed carry permits and enjoy target shooting). My wife is quite petite and wants a light comfortable gun. My research so far has lead me to the Bushmaster "Lady" Carbon 15. I am hoping to be able to order it with a collapsible stock if this is available for it. The EOTech 552 is the sight I'm leaning towards at this point.
For myself I plan on ordering a Les Baer M4 Flattop and will probably also go with the EOTech sight.
Any insight or opinions would be welcome. Cost is not much of an issue but my wife is more frugal and doesn't want to spend as much on hers as I will on mine!
TIA



I only shoot Bushmaster and Olympic Arms, so I can say first hand that the Olympic CAR97M4 is a good place to start. I got mine for $750. Never a jam or anything to speak of. If you actually believe the internet fools that insist on bashing Olympic, then RRA is a good choice that isnt much of a wallet breaker. I personally think their finish is kinda weak and the two stage triggers are fragile, but all in all, a good rifle...
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 10:03:06 PM EST
welcom!

forget the lebaer--there are ok for m1911a1, tooo damn much for ARs
dont get the bushy carbons; good concept, bad in reality as well as unreliable as unproven

BUSHMASTER all the way; rra close behind

i would recomed a bushy m-4 profile lightweight bbl w/ m-4 or CAR stock for your wife
any other bushy (exceot carbons) for you; CAR015 w/ HBAR or m-4 w/ phantom fh

also, get a chrome LINED bbl ALL the time as well as 5.56 chambering; chrome lining gives longert life, less wear, 5.56 chambering allows you to shoo .223 and the higher presure chambered, slightly more powerful 5.56 round
USGI mags all the time
Link Posted: 11/1/2004 1:28:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By DrT:
We're both mainly interested in recreational target shooting.



... no problems with zombies on your island?





Link Posted: 11/1/2004 10:48:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2004 10:56:32 AM EST by wittzo]
I got a Stagarms Model 1 left handed AR-15 for my wife.
Good trade, huh?

But really, I ordered her one for Christmas, it'll be better than DeBiers. I also have some magazines and ammo and other accessories coming in that's just for her. She's really excited about it. I'm proud that I have a wife that likes shooting.

Since July and August, I've been accessorizing my AR's with neat stuff (Eotech, Larue BUIS, single point sling) that I never got around to getting before. I would show them to her and she acted disinterested. I thought that she just didn't care, it turned out that she was dissapointed that she "couldn't" use it and she was feeling left out. I could not convince her that she could shoot an AR left handed, even after pointing at that big hunk of of a deflector. Now there's something we can do together.
I can't wait to show her how to fieldstrip it and clean it and show her how everything works. It would be neat if we could find time to compete, but that might be pushing it.
Link Posted: 11/2/2004 5:35:20 PM EST
IMO
Get yourself a flattop 20: government profile and put a DD12.0 on it. Add an Aimpoint M2 on the Larue mount and an Arms 40A2. Later on outfit it with a good surefire light and a vertical grip. Harris bipod optional

Get yourself......um.......your wife the Bushy superlight 16" with a removable carry handle an collapsible stock. Later add her an TA31F or equivalent with Arms 40A2 or 40L
Link Posted: 11/2/2004 5:46:13 PM EST
I'm personaly going to be getting a bushmaster superlight carbine in A3, hopefully with or add on a collapsible stock. i would also +1 on the RRA, i like their entry carbine
Link Posted: 11/2/2004 6:47:30 PM EST
make her a bushmaster super light 16" barrel... you can do it for about 5lbs... and you'll accually have a metal gun
Link Posted: 11/2/2004 6:59:37 PM EST
Can you guys not read?

This rich effer obviously does not care how much money he has to spend. He's got a $4000 mountain bike. Why are recommending Oly & Rock River to him and touting the cost savings?



Mr. Rich Effer,

I suggest that you go with Colt M4 type rifles. Although it makes vomit chunks percolate into my upper esophogus to say so, Colt does seem to have the best quality product out there. Followed very closely by Bushmaster.

I question the idea of a featherweight rifle. A rifle should have a little heft to it.

Think back to that crappy, flyweight freshman physics class you pre-med snakes were forced to take: weight is proportional to mass, and mass is defined as the resistance to accelleration. In other words, the heavier that something is, the harder it is to jiggle it around. Since a rifle has six degress of freedom (of motion), some mass comes in handy. Witness the fact that the Service Match rifles have lead weights in them and weigh up to 20 pounds.

Note also that gun weight soaks up recoil. Many a man has purchased a featherweight hunting rifle that felt great in the store but sucked when it came time to hit the target with it.

Usually, hyper-ultralight guns are used for hiking and camping, when light weight is more important than pure utility.

Have your woman hold the rifle out in front of her vertically with one straight arm. If she can hold it for a whole minute then she's good to go.

In any case, there's no need for you to get a puss-bag little rifle just because she's getting one.

And for heaven's sake get a Garand immediately. From CMP.

THANK YOU

Link Posted: 11/2/2004 8:00:52 PM EST
Just get a matching pair of these



Bushmaster 16" m4a3
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