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Posted: 9/24/2005 2:40:55 PM EDT
Just starting out the reload time is probably close although Id give the edge to the AR.Thats inserting a mag and charging it.But I say the true nature of the speed is more appropriately tested after ascertaing the rifle is empty and needs a reload.With the AK you dont know until you hear a click..hammer falling on an empty chamber.ARs you can feel the bolt lock back from the inertia and feel from your head on the stock.Aks have to be pushed up forward and rocked back and ARs are straight up.I think the AR is the fastest simply because you dont have to wait to hear a hammer drop on the empty chamber and its easier to insert or drop free a mag.What do you folks think?
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 2:52:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 2:53:07 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]
AR

no contest

while you can speed reload an AK quite quickly (w/ lots of practice), the AR is just simpler and eaiser and faster

bolt locks back, one hand on the grip, same hand pushes the mag release--mag drops free, the other hand grabs mag, reloads and slaps it

good to go

AK: hear a 'click', hand on the grip, other hand grabs a mag, nudge the mag release w/ fingers (while holding the mag)--might have to help the extra mag fall out, rock the extra mag in, rotate the AK on its side, charge the handle w/ the free hand
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 2:59:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 3:01:07 PM EDT by dmk0210]
The AK would be a lot faster if the bolt handle was on the left side, but still not as fast as the AR.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:02:37 PM EDT
AR, because you can do two things at once.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:10:18 PM EDT
Go watch Val Kilmer in Heat again. Then take the poll.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:10:59 PM EDT
I agree to all the great responses,the human engineering is so good on an AR.You can shoot,drop the mag and manipulate the safety with the hand your holding it in.one hand operation with the just the left hand with a fresh mag and hitting the bolt catch.But even if your left arm or hand was hurt you can just bang the catch on the bottom of your boot or leg to release it and reload right handed.I asked the question because of a similar one on the AK side and responses of people saying AKs were equal or better in this respect.Its not hard to see the 13 year difference in design with the 2 and how the AR was designed for ease of service and operation.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:12:32 PM EDT
Nightwatchman,Heats a great example.He does reload fast.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:25:32 PM EDT
AR, the design of the gun allows for argueably the quickest mag change of any military rifle around.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:35:07 PM EDT
now if only the AR had the reliability of an AK74

just kidding.

The AR by far is designed better with the shooter's needs in mind. I love the AK, I just bought my first AK-74 type rifle and absolutely love it, but being an AR guy I miss the ease of changing mags, and the well-positioned safety of the AR
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:51:48 PM EDT
AR hands down...with an AK you have to use your left hand to release the old mag, then get a fresh mag, then insert it and pull the bolt. With the AR, you can release the mag with your right hand while getting a fresh mag with your left, insert, hit the bolt catch on the left side and you're ready to rock 'n' roll.

Gotta love simplicity
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:09:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
AR, because you can do two things at once.



That's the key. The AR is far more ergonomic than the AK.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:16:37 PM EDT
With the AK you can get add ons that let you dump empty mags. You can use an AK74 clone that will lock back on the follower or they even make after market bolt hold open devices. Problem is rock and lock is always slower than shove straight in. This question is like asking which is more accurate Remington 700 or SKS?
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:31:23 PM EDT
AR hands down.

Devl
I think if the weapon needs these type of add ons well the weapon needs replaced with something better.

I like AK's dont get me wrong, there just not close to the AR.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:22:01 PM EDT
There just is no comparison on this one, and it is one of the AR-15/M-16's greatest advantages over the Russian rifle.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:28:38 PM EDT
AR15/M16, no question about it. Who the hell answered AK??
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:36:11 PM EDT
I'd say AR15, without a doubt.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:48:43 PM EDT
AR15
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:55:53 PM EDT
AR without a doubt.

But you folks who want to keep comparing the AR and the AK have to remember who designed these weapons, when they were designed, and most importantly of all, who they were designed for. The AK was designed in the mid 1940's by a low tech country for an uneducated peasant soldier who's most complex tool before given the AK was a ox and plow. The AR was designed in a high tech country in the late 50's for an educated soldier who was used to cars, motorcycles, electric guitars, airplanes, etc, etc.

They are both great weapons and it's fun to compare them because they faced each other on the battlefield so many times, but let's not forget the above info when we make the comparisons.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:14:38 PM EDT
Are you serious!? AR duh!
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:21:36 PM EDT
Like I said I posed the question to see the diference in responses from when I saw it on the AK side of the site..but without a pole.In bothe instances the response favored the type of rifle for what ever side you are on AR people and AK people.But it was only the AR15 side who supported their rifle based on real facts of comparison as the AK side was simply claiming but with no facts.And at leas t3 reponses here either prove some one simply played devils advocate or they really like the AK side beleive their rifle has a faster reload or with practice is just as fast.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:35:48 PM EDT
AR. No contest.

But, the AK does hold the mag more securely. And the mag is (at least) twice the mag the disposable aluminum box we have in the AR.

I don't think the mag issue itself makes the AR a better combat rifle. But, combined with other human engineering concerns (grip, stock, handguard, sights, BHO, safety) I think overall (oh how I hate to admit this) the AR is the better rifle.

Unless of course your idea of combat training is taking Ivan Muzhikovich off the street, beating him up and raping him, sticking a rifle in his hand, traning him for an hour and sending him off to go fight the evil capitalist west in a BMP that he doesn't fit in. It doesn't matter that he doesn't really know how to fight. He's just a cog in a machine, designed to work so far before he becomes dog food. It doesn't matter that you loose 5 men for every enemy KIA. Your army wins by mass.

Oh wait. I did I just describe the Soviet Army?
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 8:48:09 PM EDT
Ar goes straight in, ak needs to snap in.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 9:34:42 PM EDT
I've managed to speed up my AK time a good bit with practice..but the AR wins no contest
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 9:54:35 PM EDT
AK mag quick changes take practice and it is not often taught to AK users in any real form even foreign militaries. I had to have a buddy a combat veteran from Bosnia show me how to do it. Ar still wins handsdown though, quicker mag release with a button versus a hook.

Fastest method I have seen with AKs is two mags taped inverted.
1.Thumb the hook with non-trigger hand
2. slap forward palming mags
3. Invert/rotate mags in hand
4. Hook front mag catch and pull back and up.

Buddy did it in about 3 seconds. I am not as fluid as he is though.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 9:58:55 PM EDT
Not even a close call. AR all the way. Here is an example.............

Video of a mag dump with "quick" mag change. I even screwed up and put the second mag in my right pocket and still fired off 2 mags with reload in just under 9 seconds. If I reloaded from my left side and didn't have to release my trigger hand, I probably could have shaved at least a second off that time.

Mag change video

The gun is a stock Olympic PCR and yes, it's a semi

P.S. the first mag is an Orlite. They are the only ones that will drop free from any of my ARs.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 10:12:10 PM EDT
I cannot believe this question even needed to be asked
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 10:13:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Not even a close call. AR all the way. Here is an example.............

Video of a mag dump with "quick" mag change. I even screwed up and put the second mag in my right pocket and still fired off 2 mags with reload in just under 9 seconds. If I reloaded from my left side and didn't have to release my trigger hand, I probably could have shaved at least a second off that time.

Mag change video

The gun is a stock Olympic PCR and yes, it's a semi

P.S. the first mag is an Orlite. They are the only ones that will drop free from any of my ARs.



How do you bumpfire it from the shoulder like that?
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 10:20:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 10:22:05 PM EDT by steve-oh]
What? I can't believe some people think it's even possibly close. With the bolt catch and the drop free mags, this is a no brainer.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 10:42:42 PM EDT
ar15 hands down is the fast
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 11:15:54 PM EDT
Quickest reload is another loaded gun.

However the AR platform is quicker and more eronomicial efficient. Yes, there are some AK mags that have a straight back follower allowing the bolt to lock open on the last round. However when you remove the mag the bolt will automatically go forward since the follower is removed. The Russian did have a good design to copy the mag release from in the scense that the AK assualt rifle was a Russian equivant to the MP43/44/STG44 (its a straight insertion and push button release) Armalite also borrowed the dust cover from the MP44 and put it on the AR10/15.

CD
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 11:33:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Not even a close call. AR all the way. Here is an example.............

Video of a mag dump with "quick" mag change. I even screwed up and put the second mag in my right pocket and still fired off 2 mags with reload in just under 9 seconds. If I reloaded from my left side and didn't have to release my trigger hand, I probably could have shaved at least a second off that time.

Mag change video

The gun is a stock Olympic PCR and yes, it's a semi

P.S. the first mag is an Orlite. They are the only ones that will drop free from any of my ARs.



thats the quickest mag dump i have seen w/ a semi auto

Link Posted: 9/24/2005 11:42:06 PM EDT
It is either modified(legally?) or has a 2lb hair trigger.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 11:47:13 PM EDT
AR-15 hands down
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 11:55:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mattl:
It is either modified(legally?) or has a 2lb hair trigger.



Nope. No mods and the stock trigger has never been out of the gun. I have broken a couple of hammer pins though.

It's just a technique I've developed after a lot of practice.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:09:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By Mattl:
It is either modified(legally?) or has a 2lb hair trigger.



Nope. No mods and the stock trigger has never been out of the gun. I have broken a couple of hammer pins though.

It's just a technique I've developed after a lot of practice.



care to share?

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:14:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 1:15:25 AM EDT by Combat_Jack]
.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:16:20 AM EDT
Like the first reply said. AR, no contest.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:32:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By repub18:
I cannot believe this question even needed to be asked


Me neither.......
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:39:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By repub18:
I cannot believe this question even needed to be asked



+1
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:49:13 AM EDT
Whats this let the mag drop free stuff? I was taught to strip the mag out. My D&H mags all drop free, but I still strip them out when doing a mag change because you never know if it will or will not. Something could happen to the mags, you could get dirt or something in the magwell or a very dirty gun could make it not drop free. Murphy likes to show up at bad times. I had it happen when a couple of us got together to do some run n'gun. Don't take it for granted that just because a mag will drop free in a clean environment that it will when the gun is dirty or the conditions less then ideal.

I voted AR too. I got good with my AK but the mag changes were never as fast.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 6:36:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 7:21:54 AM EDT by zragon13]
Actually in practice, I always found switching mags on the Galil faster than with the M16 (which I've been using since '94):
1) Grab new mag from pouch with left (non-firing) hand and place it adjacent to the left side of the empty inserted mag -- but a little higher up. Now you are holding both mags in your hand.
2) Using trigger finger of right (firing hand) or thumb of left hand, press the mag release paddle/catch to release the empty mag and rock both mags forward
3) Move both mags slightly to the right, inserting the forward tip of the new mag (which is higher up) into the rifle and rock it back until it locks.
4) rack the cocking handle with the bottom of your left hand - now holding only the empty mag - and you're ready to go.
5) If you have time, place the empty in the pouch, or pants pocket. If not, let it drop and hope you can find it later (in the IDF you pay for lost mags- inc M16 mags).

This is actually simpler than it sounds. It becomes instinctive with practice.

I always found that the M16 mag switch harder because after inserting the new mag you had to slap it in with the palm of your left hand and tug it to make sure it was properly locked in place, and sometimes even pull it out and reinsert. This is hard to do while you're holding the empty mag in your hand.
As for the advantage of just letting the empty mag drop, see #5 above.

Recocking the weapon when it's empty seems more natural to me than remembering to slap the bolt release (while holding the empty mag in your left hand. When running around and firing the M16 in the field I never notice that the bolt is locked back anyway.
Besides, the Galil had the advantage of 5-6 extra rounds before going empty.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:08:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Originally Posted By repub18:
I cannot believe this question even needed to be asked



+1



+1

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:30:20 AM EDT
201 for the AR 4 for the AK. Wonder what the final results will be.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:42:06 AM EDT
rickinvegas how the hell did you do that?!
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:52:02 AM EDT
I don't believe for a second that was semi-auto, and I won't believe it until I see a video in which we can actually SEE YOUR TRIGGER FINGER!
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:50:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NightWatchman:
Go watch Val Kilmer in Heat again. Then take the poll.



So much to be learned from that movie.

AR is faster by far.

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:52:24 AM EDT
I love My M-14, but it's mag change is too much like My AK. Need quick changes out here - gophers charge when they're wounded!
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:23:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chevrofreak:
I don't believe for a second that was semi-auto, and I won't believe it until I see a video in which we can actually SEE YOUR TRIGGER FINGER!



<devilsadvocate> Cheek weld looked a little too good for bumping <devilsadvocate>
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:31:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chevrofreak:
I don't believe for a second that was semi-auto, and I won't believe it until I see a video in which we can actually SEE YOUR TRIGGER FINGER!



Believe it. MisterPX can do the same thing.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:32:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:

Originally Posted By chevrofreak:
I don't believe for a second that was semi-auto, and I won't believe it until I see a video in which we can actually SEE YOUR TRIGGER FINGER!



<devilsadvocate> Cheek weld looked a little too good for bumping <devilsadvocate>



What are you talking about? thats about what yers looks like half the time Capt. Bumpsalot. You just don't see it from the same angle we do.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:06:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chevrofreak:
I don't believe for a second that was semi-auto, and I won't believe it until I see a video in which we can actually SEE YOUR TRIGGER FINGER!


Your hand is alot quicker than you think it is.
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