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Posted: 10/29/2006 5:49:36 PM EST
Federal Ammunition
XM 193
5.56mm M193 Ball

Lot # 124


Second day out with my new rifle and had multiple (by multiple I mean...A HECK OF A LOT) of FTF. Upon inspection of the rounds I found that the primers had impact marks from the firing pin...but alas, not "bang".

This is my first time with this ammo....for the break in I used very nice civilian rounds...absolutely no issues.

However, with this ammo I was having issues every 2-5 shots. Only one magazine fired with less than 3 FTF. All of the others had issues with every 3rd or 5th shot.

Any ideas as to what is going on? Is the ammo just bad/dirty/cheap and thus I got what I paid for?

The casings look dirty...the powder was not a clean burn at all.

I am new to this so I am learning about what brands to stay away from... educate me please!!!

Thanks in advance for replies. I simply want to find a reliable brand that isn't going to cost me an arm and a leg for alot of it.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 6:01:27 PM EST
In for an answer.

XM193 is supposed to be the most reliable (according to the thread tacked in this forum)...I have 1,000rds of lot 124 and 1,000rds of lot 135
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 6:03:03 PM EST
so what gives? Why so many failures with this ammo but not any other?

The primers were impacted but never fired. Some of them I rechambered and they went off after being struck twice.


I am lost.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 6:20:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 6:21:15 PM EST by MP5_guy]
Could be a couple of things to look at... Since mil-spec ammo is going to have slightly harder primers than "civilian" ammo, you should look at:

* the hammer spring being too light causing light strikes on the primer
* possibly the tip of the firing pin is broken, or (very remote chance) that the firing pin is just a hair too short
* debris/dirt in the bolt/carrier, or on the fiing pin preventing it from fully traveling forward

Does your rifle have a trigger job? Did you clean it before taking to the range?
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 6:42:10 PM EST
It would be very helpful to see a picture of these primers that show "impact". That's actually normal. All chambered AR-15 ammo has "impact" marks due to the free-floating firing pin hitting it as the bolt slams forward and locks.

The odds are... it's not the ammo.

It might help to show pictures of your hammer/trigger mechanism also.

Link Posted: 10/29/2006 6:44:13 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By MP5_guy:
Could be a couple of things to look at... Since mil-spec ammo is going to have slightly harder primers than "civilian" ammo, you should look at:

* the hammer spring being too light causing light strikes on the primer
* possibly the tip of the firing pin is broken, or (very remote chance) that the firing pin is just a hair too short
* debris/dirt in the bolt/carrier, or on the fiing pin preventing it from fully traveling forward

Does your rifle have a trigger job? Did you clean it before taking to the range?


yes, the rifle has a trigger job. The guy that helped me put this thing together spent weeks with the rifle working out the kinks...

I did clean it before taking it to the range today. The firing pin is correct...as it was replaced last week with a 110% correct sized pin.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 6:45:47 PM EST
Military primers are harder than commercial primers.

Are you using some form of "match" trigger? low mass hammer? modified or "match" hammer spring?

If you are having fails to fire military primers with a stadard fire control group them Wolff makes an extra power hammer spring which will solve the problem. I had some south african ammo in the early 90's with really hard primers and the wolff spring solved that issue.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 6:52:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By gordo23:

yes, the rifle has a trigger job. The guy that helped me put this thing together spent weeks with the rifle working out the kinks...

I did clean it before taking it to the range today. The firing pin is correct...as it was replaced last week with a 110% correct sized pin.



Then I would bet that the hammer isn't strking hard enough to set off the military primers.

The easy way to check that would be to replace the fire control group with stock parts, or put the upper on a lower that has a stock FCG.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 7:09:21 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By MP5_guy:
height=8
Originally Posted By gordo23:

yes, the rifle has a trigger job. The guy that helped me put this thing together spent weeks with the rifle working out the kinks...

I did clean it before taking it to the range today. The firing pin is correct...as it was replaced last week with a 110% correct sized pin.



Then I would bet that the hammer isn't strking hard enough to set off the military primers.

The easy way to check that would be to replace the fire control group with stock parts, or put the upper on a lower that has a stock FCG.


I am lost because the guy that helped put this together (rifle builder and SWAT officer) put this rifle through a huge test before giving it to me, He said it didn't have problems with anything after he worked out the kinks and replaced the necessary parts.

I am going to be getting in touch with him to figure out what his next step would be...and then use the advice gathered here as well..

Any other ideas I should throw his way?
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 8:48:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By gordo23:
yes, the rifle has a trigger job. The guy that helped me put this thing together spent weeks with the rifle working out the kinks...

I did clean it before taking it to the range today. The firing pin is correct...as it was replaced last week with a 110% correct sized pin.



This sounds ALL wrong... What "kinks"? "Replaced Pin"... AR pins are all the same size.

I can almost guaranty there is nothing wrong with the ammo. XM193 is great ammo.

I would suggest getting your AR to a gunsmith for a check up.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 9:55:04 PM EST
Its the trigger job. He used a low mass hammer or a low weight hammer spring or some kitchen table gunsmith trick like cutting off one of the hammer spring legs to lower the felt trigger pull.

Install a Bushmaster trigger, hammer, disconnector and springs and the problem will be solved. its a 10 minute job.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 7:40:55 AM EST
Sounds like the Swat guy has some problems
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 9:12:01 AM EST
the original firing pin was faulty....he pulled it (had this same problem) and discovered the pin had a flaw so he replaced it. He then installed a JP trigger job and had zero issues with all the ammo he tested.

I am getting in touch with him to find out what gives...

Thanks for the replies.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 9:24:39 AM EST
It's clearly an AMMO problem!!
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 9:41:46 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By markm:
It's clearly an AMMO problem!! hough
I really do appreciate all the helpful replies...this is why I come to this site.

Thanks again!
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 10:50:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By gordo23:
He then installed a JP trigger job and had zero issues with all the ammo he tested.

He probably only used commercial ammo.

The light weight JP hammer spring and low mass hammer is likely the culprit.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 11:27:30 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
height=8
Originally Posted By gordo23:
He then installed a JP trigger job and had zero issues with all the ammo he tested.

He probably only used commercial ammo.

The light weight JP hammer spring and low mass hammer is likely the culprit.


So what is the fix for it?
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 12:47:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By gordo23:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By gordo23:
He then installed a JP trigger job and had zero issues with all the ammo he tested.

He probably only used commercial ammo.

The light weight JP hammer spring and low mass hammer is likely the culprit.


So what is the fix for it?


A standard FCG.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 12:48:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/30/2006 12:49:06 PM EST by dave89iroc]
I'd try a heavier hammer spring at the least, but if it has a low mass hammer, might as well swap the hammer and spring at the same time
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 2:29:00 PM EST
I just spoke with the guy that helped me put this together. He said this is exactly what the rifle was doing, but he thought he had fixed the issue. He told me that he has tried all of the fixes you all have listed...but after talking with the manufacturer they all believe it to be a bolt issue.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 5:45:50 PM EST
The light weight JP hammer spring = culprit.

of the 3 rifles that run Jp yellow Springs all 3 need to have the springs replaced with std stock USGI Hammer springs.

I run a JP low mass hammer and a JP trigger with stock colt 6721 Springs. 3k of my ammo has been Xm193, 2k PMC, 2k IMI .223a. all rounds went boom.

For my exp the JP yellows usally crap out at 2k or less.

If you rifle has the JP yellow springs, replace then with USGI springs.

Also if you run a non procted firing pin carrier the low mass hammer will wreck havoc on your firing pin retaining pin in short order.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 6:23:25 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
The light weight JP hammer spring = culprit.

of the 3 rifles that run Jp yellow Springs all 3 need to have the springs replaced with std stock USGI Hammer springs.

I run a JP low mass hammer and a JP trigger with stock colt 6721 Springs. 3k of my ammo has been Xm193, 2k PMC, 2k IMI .223a. all rounds went boom.

For my exp the JP yellows usally crap out at 2k or less.

If you rifle has the JP yellow springs, replace then with USGI springs.

Also if you run a non procted firing pin carrier the low mass hammer will wreck havoc on your firing pin retaining pin in short order.


I just finished replacing the springs...thanks for the heads up!
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 6:51:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By gordo23:
Federal Ammunition
XM 193
5.56mm M193 Ball

Lot # 124


Second day out with my new rifle and had multiple (by multiple I mean...A HECK OF A LOT) of FTF. Upon inspection of the rounds I found that the primers had impact marks from the firing pin...but alas, not "bang".

This is my first time with this ammo....for the break in I used very nice civilian rounds...absolutely no issues.

However, with this ammo I was having issues every 2-5 shots. Only one magazine fired with less than 3 FTF. All of the others had issues with every 3rd or 5th shot.

Any ideas as to what is going on? Is the ammo just bad/dirty/cheap and thus I got what I paid for?

The casings look dirty...the powder was not a clean burn at all.

I am new to this so I am learning about what brands to stay away from... educate me please!!!

Thanks in advance for replies. I simply want to find a reliable brand that isn't going to cost me an arm and a leg for alot of it.

Thanks!


Not clean burning powder you say? Where did you get the ammo? What were the storage conditions prior to your possession? What rifle were you using (brand)? Why did you customize a new rifle? Did you try it before the trigger job (with the civilian stuff --what was the civilian stuff)? How many rounds did you use for the "break in"?

If it was cheap, then it either wasn't Federal XM193 or there's another reason it was cheap (probably not in your favor).

I highly recommend reading the ammo oracle and current ammo ratings. You will see that Fed XM193 (not PD) is highly rated and coveted (provided it comes from a reliable source, see also top 2 posts in ammunition for decent retailers; I think most people would agree the vendors all sell ammo that is properly stored and not misrepresented . . . other than CTD, wonder how they think they can keep their name?)
You will also see highly rated regular .223 Rem.

Asking a lot of questions will help you isolate a problem. Having these questions answered in an open forum with experts reading and advising will help you get to the bottom of this. I'm not trying to grill you, these are just questions that need to be answered before attempting solve your problem(s).

You will go further in in your query if you post pics (as recommended by some other fellas) . . .

ASIDE: I really don't understand why anyone would need a trigger job for regular field work types of activities. Target and match purposes yes . . . but, for anything within a hundred yards, trigger jobs on quality AR's aren't necessary (some may argue 200 yds . . . do I hear 300?). And . . . if one wants and gets a trigger job, then why not stick with match grade ammo and/or regular .223 Rem? Why bother with surplus?
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 8:52:30 PM EST
It's also possible the hammer spring was installed backward. BTDT.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 2:29:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By gordo23:
He then installed a JP trigger job and had zero issues with all the ammo he tested.

He probably only used commercial ammo.

The light weight JP hammer spring and low mass hammer is likely the culprit.



I felt a JP trigger on a guys AR15 at the local range

Man it was LITE

better than the trigger on my COLT 1911

I wouldnt use that trigger unless I was shooting Targets or Pest
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:07:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By FMJ:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By gordo23:
He then installed a JP trigger job and had zero issues with all the ammo he tested.

He probably only used commercial ammo.

The light weight JP hammer spring and low mass hammer is likely the culprit.



I felt a JP trigger on a guys AR15 at the local range

Man it was LITE

better than the trigger on my COLT 1911

I wouldnt use that trigger unless I was shooting Targets or Pest


you can adjust the weight to what you want.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:32:30 AM EST
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