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Link Posted: 2/17/2012 11:35:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 12:30:13 PM EST by InfiniteGrim]
I will put all the pictures here...

Noveske 10.5"

Black Hills77gr



Black Hills 69gr



Pav 55gr Hornady FMJ



American Eagle XM855



Wolf 55gr




Centurion 11.5"


Black Hills77gr



Black Hills 69gr


Pav 55gr Hornady FMJ



American Eagle XM855



Wolf 55gr







Centurion 16"


Black Hills77gr



Black Hills 69gr



Pav 55gr Hornady FMJ


American Eagle XM855



Wolf 55gr











PSA 12.5"


Black Hills77gr



Black Hills 69gr



Pav 55gr Hornady FMJ


American Eagle XM855



Wolf 55gr



Link Posted: 2/17/2012 11:36:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
I'm over this. Any reasonable and intelligent person can see that none of these barrels are "night and day" better than the others. I am confident that they are all from the same blanks, forged around the same mandrels on the same machine, and capable of shooting reasonably similar. I'm done here. If there are those of you who do not like that statement, do your own test with integrity, or just buy what you like and run along.

I had three souces tell me they were internally and compositionally the same. I had ZERO sources tell me how they were internally or compositionally different. They all had their chance here and didn't speak up and tell us what is unique about their barrels, if anything at all. I'm done here. I urge the mods to do as they wish with the thread. Lock, delete, let it roll on.... I'm over it. If anyone wants me to delete the charts from the OP, let me know and I will pull them.


I don't believe that any reasonable person would have thought that there would be a night and day difference as it relates to accuracy (which is what you tested).  You have gathered a lot of information and were kind enough to take the time to share it with everyone on the site.  But that doesn't mean that everyone is going to look at that information and draw the same conclusions.  And if they don't reach the same conclusions, you shouldn't get worked up and take it as though your time, effort, and money are not appreciated.  I like what you are doing and would like to you or others build upon it so that we can get closer to a conclusive answer.

I wish FN could just come forth and tell us whether they are built to the exact same specs, but that is not going to happen.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 12:33:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 12:50:59 PM EST by evlblkwpnz]
PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE ARE ONLY 9 SHOTS IN THE FOLLOWING GROUPS IN THE ABOVE PICTURES....
Centurion 11.5"/ Pav's 55gr, Centurion 16"/Black Hills 69gr, and Centurion 16" Black hills 77gr




Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Hey OP do you have the fullsize pictures? I can split the pictures up by group and then use ON Target to calculate each group size. Its just that the resized versions on photobucket will make them look crappy.

Peengwin has the pics. I don't have them, but can take some if you will email me. I will not be able to get a pic of the full Noveske 10.5"/Black Hills 77gr group as one shot was off paper. Neither will I be able to get a pic of the Centurion Arms 16"/ Black Hills 77gr group as all but one shot was off paper. I saved these pics from photobucket last night, opened them with Paint, enlarged them until the grids on the targets were 1" on my screen, then measured the groups with a micrometer. The grids measured 1" on my mic at the time of measuring the groups. If you can process the pics with "OnTarget", I will gladly post them in the OP if you email them to me or put them on imageshack.

The groups are going to have the be calculated in 9 shot groups for Pav's handloads, Black Hills 69gr, and Black Hills 77gr. I'm not sure how it happened, but there are only 9 shots in 3 of the groups (Noveske 10.5"/Black Hills 77gr,  Centruion Arms 11.5"/Pav's handloads, Centurion Arms 16"/Black Hills 69gr, and Centurion Arms 16"/Black hills 77gr). I assume that excluding the farthest shot from the 10 shot groups would be the way to do it. I would absolutely appreciate your help.

Link Posted: 2/17/2012 12:54:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 12:57:30 PM EST by InfiniteGrim]
Too late already did them all, I just crunched a TON of numbers. Barrel Rank from best to worst : PSA 12.5">Centurion 16">Centurion11.5">Noveske10.5"  I will get some pictures soon
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 12:57:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By wolverine05:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
I'm over this. Any reasonable and intelligent person can see that none of these barrels are "night and day" better than the others. I am confident that they are all from the same blanks, forged around the same mandrels on the same machine, and capable of shooting reasonably similar. I'm done here. If there are those of you who do not like that statement, do your own test with integrity, or just buy what you like and run along.

I had three souces tell me they were internally and compositionally the same. I had ZERO sources tell me how they were internally or compositionally different. They all had their chance here and didn't speak up and tell us what is unique about their barrels, if anything at all. I'm done here. I urge the mods to do as they wish with the thread. Lock, delete, let it roll on.... I'm over it. If anyone wants me to delete the charts from the OP, let me know and I will pull them.


I don't believe that any reasonable person would have thought that there would be a night and day difference as it relates to accuracy (which is what you tested).  You have gathered a lot of information and were kind enough to take the time to share it with everyone on the site.  But that doesn't mean that everyone is going to look at that information and draw the same conclusions.  And if they don't reach the same conclusions, you shouldn't get worked up and take it as though your time, effort, and money are not appreciated.  I like what you are doing and would like to you or others build upon it so that we can get closer to a conclusive answer.

I wish FN could just come forth and tell us whether they are built to the exact same specs, but that is not going to happen.


Honestly, I'm not concerned with conclusions that people draw from this. As it says in the title "You decide". What has gotten under my skin is that I have operated with integrity here and some want to act like I'm lying here about something. I have been very open about everything. I am glad the pics have been posted by InfiniteG. He measured exactty as I did, but some of the centerpoints of the measurements are slightly off. No big deal though as it wasn't actually going to make or break where that particular barrel ranked compared to others. Very good job and most appreciated.

Link Posted: 2/17/2012 1:00:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 1:10:10 PM EST by evlblkwpnz]
Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Too late already did them all, I just crunched a TON of numbers. Barrel Rank from best to worst : PSA 12.5">Centurion 16">Centurion11.5">Noveske10.5"  I will get some pictures soon


PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE ARE ONLY 9 SHOTS IN THE FOLLOWING GROUPS IN THE ABOVE PICTURES....
Centurion 11.5"/ Pav's 55gr, Centurion 16"/Black Hills 69gr, and Centurion 16" Black hills 77gr



What blew me away is that I thought the Noveske 10.5" would do better because of the thicker profile and less flex due to the shorter length. I was actually somewhat disappointed in how it stacked up against the others. It is still probably my favorite barrel. 10.5" ARs are certainly a good time

Link Posted: 2/17/2012 1:10:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 1:16:49 PM EST by InfiniteGrim]
As for the center points On Target uses its mathematical formulas to calculate a weighted average of the center of the group.


To rank the barrels I ranked them using group size and average CTC for each group. The average CTC  measures how consistent the group is. Its basically the standard deviation of the group. So if you have a 4" group but 9 of the shots are touching, the average CTC to going to show that nearly all teh shots were touching and in a tight group.

The Centurion 16" and PSA 12.5" were very close. Looking at the data where the Centurion beat the other barrels it was by 1-2 tenths of an inch. But on some groups the PSA beat the Centurion by nearly 1/2". Also the PSA's Average CTC on the good ammo was MUCH better then the Centurion.









The ammo Rankings was determined by averaging the group size average and CTC average.







ETA: HOLY SHIT! I just looked at the clock, that took me nearly 3 hours Now I have a headache, someone owes me Tylenol!
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 1:26:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 2:14:17 PM EST
thanks again to all involved.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 4:05:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 4:08:37 PM EST by evlblkwpnz]
InfiniteGrim,
I can't express how much I appreciate your efforts here. You have been an asset to the testing and deserve some serious credt here.

I plan to do some more testing in warmer weather with what is left of the ammo. I'm pretty sure that there is enough to do 10 shot groups for each barrel. I welcome others to carry the torch until then.

In a nutshell, I feel it is fairly safe to say that these barrels, and probably any other FN manufactured CHF barrels, are reasonably similar in performance. However, with Spike's and PSA's recent rise in price, I think many might feel a little better about spending a few more $ for the Centurion, BCM, or Noveske. The choice to go with a Noveske would be fairly obvious (proprietary profile, brand recognition, and reputation). The choice to go with Centurion would be a geared more toward a few different things (Monty is active military, has an excellent reputation, and some people like for things to match and he offers sights, rails, and some other items for the AR platform). The choice to go with BCM is really obvious (excellent reputation and Paul has an extremely loyal following).

Spike's has a pretty hardcore fan base here too, so many may be fine with the increase in price. PSA is gaining some momentum here as far as fans go, in spite of some of the issues that they were having a while back, but many may be more inclined to get the Spike's for a few more bucks. However, I was impressed with how well the 12.5" PSA shot. I bought it for use on a host upper and it is apparently a keeper.

They are all winners, IMO. Pick a rollmark and price point.  

 


Link Posted: 2/17/2012 5:40:05 PM EST
AND kudos to Aimless for keeping the train on the track.

Aimless, your efforts are as well appreciated as anyone's in this thread.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 5:40:47 PM EST
Now, show's over.

Move along, folks.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:45:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 8:37:56 PM EST by scottybr]
removed
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 11:53:50 PM EST
left
Link Posted: 2/18/2012 8:09:04 AM EST
Now with testing done of the CHF barrels ...............
Lets see how those barrels do against reg non CHF barrel from BCM,Colt, DD etc...

My biggest question is ARE the CHF barrels really more accurate then non CHF from quality milspec barrels?
Link Posted: 2/18/2012 8:17:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By dmvfr:
Now with testing done of the CHF barrels ...............
Lets see how those barrels do against reg non CHF barrel from BCM,Colt, DD etc...

My biggest question is ARE the CHF barrels really more accurate then non CHF from quality milspec barrels?


They are not more accurate, they are 1) cheaper to make and 2) a bit longer lasting.





Bill
Link Posted: 2/18/2012 11:02:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By Another-Bill:
Originally Posted By dmvfr:
Now with testing done of the CHF barrels ...............
Lets see how those barrels do against reg non CHF barrel from BCM,Colt, DD etc...

My biggest question is ARE the CHF barrels really more accurate then non CHF from quality milspec barrels?


They are not more accurate, they are 1) cheaper to make and 2) a bit longer lasting.





Bill


They are only cheaper after you have made a gazillion of them.

Okay,  maybe not that many, but a lot.

Link Posted: 2/18/2012 11:42:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By dmvfr:
Now with testing done of the CHF barrels ...............
Lets see how those barrels do against reg non CHF barrel from BCM,Colt, DD etc...

My biggest question is ARE the CHF barrels really more accurate then non CHF from quality milspec barrels?


We had a Colt SOCOM barrel with low rounds that we were going to test as well, but there just wasn't enough time for it. I think that particular barrel would have done well against these.

I may do another comparison of sorts after I refine the shooting rest and find a closer range to shoot 100 yards. I will likely use the best two of these CHF barrels, the SOCOM, and maybe a 1/9 CL Delton Lightweight middy, for fun.

Link Posted: 2/18/2012 12:47:23 PM EST
If you really want to subject yourself to another test. Give me some advance notice and I'll load up everything from 52gr match bullet to something single loaded like a 80gr VLD.

You guys can come to SC and I'll put you up here for a weekend. Just me and my son, and lots of extra room, and food.  Oh, and real good fishing down on the Catawba river here and on Lake Wateree. The little town I'm from is basically an island, with another island inside of it, so there's lots of fish if you're so inclined.

I think maybe getting all the CHF barrels in a 16" length might prove a bit more consistent control wise. I already have a Spikes here, and may have a PSA soon enough.

Link Posted: 2/18/2012 1:16:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/18/2012 1:16:59 PM EST by Peengwin]
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Originally Posted By dmvfr:
Now with testing done of the CHF barrels ...............
Lets see how those barrels do against reg non CHF barrel from BCM,Colt, DD etc...

My biggest question is ARE the CHF barrels really more accurate then non CHF from quality milspec barrels?


We had a Colt SOCOM barrel with low rounds that we were going to test as well, but there just wasn't enough time for it. I think that particular barrel would have done well against these.

I may do another comparison of sorts after I refine the shooting rest and find a closer range to shoot 100 yards. I will likely use the best two of these CHF barrels, the SOCOM, and maybe a 1/9 CL Delton Lightweight middy, for fun.



Keep us informed. I'll drive to lend a hand and some ammo...any excuse to take the Zed out of town is a good one!
ETA: You've got my number. Let me know if you need a hand closer to your home town.
Link Posted: 2/18/2012 2:11:34 PM EST
Excellent job. Thanks to all for their efforts. Greatly appreciated. Most interesting thread in a long time.
Link Posted: 2/18/2012 6:49:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
If you really want to subject yourself to another test. Give me some advance notice and I'll load up everything from 52gr match bullet to something single loaded like a 80gr VLD.

You guys can come to SC and I'll put you up here for a weekend. Just me and my son, and lots of extra room, and food.  Oh, and real good fishing down on the Catawba river here and on Lake Wateree. The little town I'm from is basically an island, with another island inside of it, so there's lots of fish if you're so inclined.

I think maybe getting all the CHF barrels in a 16" length might prove a bit more consistent control wise. I already have a Spikes here, and may have a PSA soon enough.


I'm due for a road trip after I can get caught up at work. It will be a while though. I hear ya on the "subject myself to", lol. I suppose I'm a glutton for punishment. It was good though. Next time I will have the luxury of just springing the results all of a sudden. It will be a clandestine mission until all is ready

Link Posted: 2/19/2012 2:10:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2012 3:34:58 PM EST by Aimless]
Thanks for doing this test guys.  I appreciate the effort and money spent on your own accord.  We need more people like you on this site.  Now that we have the hard data, we can draw our own conclusions.  It's SCIENCE.




















 
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 3:12:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2012 3:14:21 PM EST by Yojimbo]
The next thing I am really interested in getting some hard data on is how much longer CHF barrels really last compared to the standard button rifled, chrome lined CMV barrels.

IMHO, once there is enough thoat erosion and chrome lining wear the barrel will be shot out regardless of whether or not it's CHF.  The double lining might help but how much does it affect the barrel when half the chrome lining has worn out?

Exactly how much difference will having a CHF barrel make in regards to throat erosion and chrome lining wear?
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 3:49:09 PM EST
Yes yes yes, jolly good show!

3 cheers for the OP on a jolly good show!




No bullshit, thanks more than I going into here for what you did.





Bill
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 4:01:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 4:26:26 PM EST
seems like the "two times the normal Cr lining" or "twice the Cr lining" is makes more sense in a machine gun barrel than in a fighting rifle....even if the tolerances open up a bit you are
still slinging enough belt fed in the general vicinity to make up for it....
imo
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 4:34:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
The next thing I am really interested in getting some hard data on is how much longer CHF barrels really last compared to the standard button rifled, chrome lined CMV barrels.

IMHO, once there is enough thoat erosion and chrome lining wear the barrel will be shot out regardless of whether or not it's CHF.  The double lining might help but how much does it affect the barrel when half the chrome lining has worn out?

Exactly how much difference will having a CHF barrel make in regards to throat erosion and chrome lining wear?

I don't get that part either. If a regular barrel is so worn the chrome is gone presumably it shoots like shit. So if the same diameter of chrome missing but there's still chrome there instead of chrome moly, whatever difference does it make in a carbine?  


Most of us will never see that much use from one. One of the major things a chrome lined or a chrome moly bore does is it negates  or rather reduces the need for a proper break in. If you don't break in a steel barrel correctly ( one that hasn't been lapped ), you wind up with a barrel that gets copper and fouling into the pores of the steel early on, and then as the steel seasons, the pores won't be as small, and or copper/residue will still be there, or with the bigger pores copper and residue will build up faster. You will have a barrel that fouls much quicker and will become less accurate quicker during a string of firing. You will see some barrels that aren't broken in right that will foul and be noticeably less accurate in as little as 20 to 30 rounds.

Sorry for my horrible explanation  of the above. I'm hungry and in the middle of cooking supper.
I will post something in that regard from an actual barrel maker.

The other thing is in rough conditions where a barrel is not likely to get a decent cleaning for a while, harsh environments and the like, humid areas, the Chrome barrels will show less damage. Again, most of us will never subject our guns or ourselves to that sort of thing.
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 4:51:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2012 4:53:59 PM EST by pavlovwolf]
This is from Krieger.

BREAK-IN & CLEANING:



With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped –– such as your Krieger Barrel ––, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal compared to a barrel with internal tooling marks. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.

Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished” without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.

Every barrel will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is a similar hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more "color" if you are using a chemical cleaner. (Chrome moly and stainless steel are different materials with some things in common and others different.) Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in, sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the cleaning procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while breaking in the throat with bullets being fired over it.

Finally, the best way to tell if the barrel is broken in is to observe the patches; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of "shoot and clean" as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary.

One other part of it. And if you notice, there is a difference between the Chrome moly and the steel.



Below are our recomendations for proper break in and cleaning of a barrel. The information below is meant as a guideline and not meant as step by step instructions. If you have a better way that works for you without damaging the bore or using improper chemicals, by all means continue to use your methods. Many successfull competitive shooters will use these instructions to the letter, some will disagree.



LONG & SHORT TERM STORAGE:



Your Krieger barrel has been shipped to you with a SHORT TERM rust inhibitor sprayed in the bore to protect it from corrosion during shipping. Upon receipt of your barrel, you should first review the order confirmation and/or packing list to make sure the barrel matches the specifications you ordered. The very next thing you should do is clean the bore and apply a bore protectant suitable for the length of time it will be stored. This can range from a light gun oil all the way up to a preservative grease or cosmoline. The same should be done after a barrel is fit to your rifle. Preventing oxidation/corrosion in the barrel is the responsibility of the customer. We cannot be responsible for a barrel that has been improperly stored, neglected, or abused by either the end customer, gunsmith, or a distributor.






CLEANING:



This section on cleaning is not intended to be a detailed instruction, but rather to point out a few "do's and don'ts". Instructions furnished with bore cleaners, equipment, etc. should be followed unless they would conflict with these "do's and don'ts."        



You should use a good quality one piece coated cleaning rod with a freely rotating handle and a rod guide that fits both your receiver raceway and the rod snugly. How straight and how snug? The object is to make sure the rod cannot touch the bore. With M14/M1 Garand barrels a good rod and muzzle guide set-up is especially important as all the cleaning must be done from the muzzle. Even slight damage to the barrel crown is extremely detrimental to accuracy.



There are two basic types of bore cleaners, chemical and abrasive. The chemical cleaners are usually a blend of various ingredients including oils, solvents, and ammonia (in copper solvents). The abrasive cleaners generally contain no chemical solvents and are an oil, wax, or grease base with an extremely fine abrasive such as chalk, clay, or gypsum.



We recommend the use of good quality, name brand chemical cleaners on a proper fitting patch/jag combination for your particular bore size and good quality properly sized nylon or bronze brushes.  



So what is the proper way to use them? First, not all chemical cleaners are compatible with each other. Some, when used together can cause severe pitting of the barrel, even stainless steel barrels. It is fine to use two different cleaners as long as you completely dry the bore of the  first cleaner from the barrel before cleaning with the second. And, of course, never mix them in the same bottle. NOTE: Some copper solvents contain a high percentage of ammonia. This makes them a great copper solvent, but if left in the bore too long, can damage/corrode the steel. Do not leave these chemicals in a bore any longer than 10-15 minutes MAXIMUM! DO NOT EVER use straight ammonia to clean a barrel.



Follow instructions on the bottle as far as soak time, etc. Always clean from the breech whenever possible, pushing the patch up to the muzzle and then back without completely exiting the muzzle. If you exit the muzzle, the rod is going to touch the bore and be dragged back in across the crown followed by the patch or brush. Try to avoid dragging items in and out of the muzzle, it will eventually cause uneven wear of the crown. Accuracy will suffer and this can lead you to believe the barrel is shot out, when in fact, it still may have a lot of serviceable life left. A barrel with a worn or damaged crown can be re-crowned and accuracy will usually return. Have the crown checked by a competent gunsmith before giving up on a barrel that may otherwise be in good condition.



This information is intended to touch on the critical areas of break-in and cleaning and is not intended as a complete, step-by-step guide or recommendation of any product. Use a quality one piece cleaning rod that is either vinyl coated or carbon fiber, a rod guide proper for the action you are cleaning, and chemicals, jag’s, patches, and brushes that you have determined work best for you. There is no “right” answer to cleaning products and equipment, however under NO circumstances should you use a stainless brush. If you choose to use brushes in your cleaning use only quality bronze phosphor brushes or nylon. Clean them after every use to extend their life. Copper solvents will dissolve a bronze brush rather quickly.



 

BREAK IN:



The following is a guide to "break-in" based on our experience. This is not a hard and fast rule, only a guide. Some barrel, chamber, bullet, primer, powder, pressure, velocity etc. combinations may require more cycles some less. It is a good idea to just observe what the barrel is telling you with its fouling pattern and the patches. But once it is broken in, there is no need to continue breaking it in.



Initially you should perform the shoot-one-shot-and-clean cycle for five shots. If fouling hasn't reduced, fire five more cycles and so on until fouling begins to drop off. At that point shoot three shots before cleaning and observe. If fouling is reduced, fire five shots before cleaning. Do not be alarmed if your seating depth gets longer during break in. This is typical of the “high” spots in the throat being knocked down during this procedure. It is not uncommon for throat length to grow .005”-.030” from a fresh unfired chamber during break in.



Stainless                       Chrome moly

5-10 one-shot cycles    5 - 25 - one-shot cycles

1 three-shot cycle        2 - three-shot cycles

1 five-shot cycle          1 - five-shot cycle

Link Posted: 2/19/2012 5:22:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 5:41:54 PM EST
Maybe there is still a little life left in a standard barrel beyond the CL. If there is, another layer or thickness of chrome might wear slower than unlined bore. Maybe that is the big idea behind that extra lining.


Aimless,
The "break-in Watusi"....

Fire 1 shot, 25 patches, swab twice with bore conditioner, 25 patches, electric slide, macaranga, moonwalk, 50 hail Kreigers, 3 sips of beer, spit twice NNE while standing on the support side foot, repeat for 100 rounds.
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 5:45:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 5:50:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Who was the barrel maker aho had an "anti break in" article that was liked to,all the time? Not that I know the truth either way.


Not sure on the article, but Noveske and Superior are 2 that do not advocate "barrel break in"
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 6:04:47 PM EST
Either way, the amount of shots used to break in a barrel are insignificant to the life of the barrel unless you're going to shoot the barrel out in a couple of hundred rounds.

The only real way to tell would be for someone to get a couple of barrels that are identical and do a break in with one, and not with the other, and actually use a borescope that is capable of photographing the bore and chamber at the microscopic level. Personally, knowing some metallurgy from the automotive field, and seeing test of that sort on the metal at different levels of wear and lubrication, I can see that it makes sense to break one in. I have seen the metal pores change with friction and time. It seems plausible that if you get the grain going all the right direction, and close up the pores, that you will have less fouling over time. The closing of the pores would also make sense as far as keeping rust and the like from forming. Again, most of us will clean and baby these things anyway, and, like you say, to a hunter that is shooting a rack grade 30-06 a few times a year, it can be a fruitless effort.

Wonder where evlblkwpnz is on this. Sounds right up his alley. lol

Link Posted: 2/19/2012 6:06:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Who was the barrel maker aho had an "anti break in" article that was liked to,all the time? Not that I know the truth either way.


I think it was Gale McMillan that you refer to.
Link Posted: 2/19/2012 6:27:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Who was the barrel maker aho had an "anti break in" article that was liked to,all the time? Not that I know the truth either way.


I think it was Noveske.

Link Posted: 2/19/2012 7:17:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2012 7:20:56 PM EST by 9divdoc]
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Who was the barrel maker aho had an "anti break in" article that was liked to,all the time? Not that I know the truth either way.


McMillan iirc

Barrel Breakin Procedure by Gale McMillan -Sniper's Hide thread
Link Posted: 2/20/2012 7:26:41 AM EST
Noveske actually has a sheet on how to clean your barrel when it is new.  It is not really a break in procedure though.  I received one when I ordered my Noveske SS Afghan.  I probably got one with my Noveske SS Recon too but I was so damn excited I paid no attention to it if it was in there.  I just went out an shoot my Recon normally I would any other time.  If it hurt accuracy any I would hate to see that thing before it because it is a straight tack driver.  I would not worry about breaking one in but then again I am the farthest thing from a barrel aurthority or expert of any kind, except for pissing my girlfriend off.
Link Posted: 2/20/2012 2:11:26 PM EST
Regarding break-in, I find my self in the "It's not needed crowd".  My personal experience comes from six, remington 700 PSS, .308 rifles.  I did the the whole song and dance break in  with the first two and just shot the other four and there was no noticable difference in accuracy or barrel fouling levels after 1000 rounds each.  

On barrels, I belive the advantages of CHF really come into play with unlined barrels.  It seems to me, that the chrome lining will have the same wear rate regardless of barrel being CHF or not.  I would really like to see see some had data on this...
Link Posted: 2/21/2012 8:13:18 PM EST
Let me know if you'd like to test an ST spec'd FN CHF barrel.
We have 14.5" and 16" Mid-length, Optimum profile. We also have 11.5" with a light weight profile.
Link Posted: 2/22/2012 1:25:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By badazzar15:
Let me know if you'd like to test an ST spec'd FN CHF barrel.
We have 14.5" and 16" Mid-length, Optimum profile. We also have 11.5" with a light weight profile.


I tried to get one, but couldn't afford to build another FF upper. I would be thrilled to have a Spike's FN sample for the next test. IM me....

I plan to do another test soon, but I need to find a good range in FL where people won't be calling "cold range" every 5 minutes. It would take 2 days with all of that stopping and starting every 5 mins. Other than Second Amendment Outfitters' 20 yard indoor range in Yulee, this area sucks for rifle shooters.
Link Posted: 2/22/2012 2:06:47 PM EST
The next test honestly should involve all barrels of the same length. Either 16" or 14.5, since those are the most common. Like I said, if you can get up here, I have a Spikes 16" that has less than 100 rounds through it if that, and in fact probably closer to 50-75 range. My son got much worse health wise not long after we sold his Oly and bought the Spikes. He never really got to shoot it. If you get up here during the week, there are two 100 yard ranges that are pretty empty on weekdays. I also have a friend that we can get 400 yards on his ( actually his father's, but he wouldn't mind out of season ),property.

If, and I would have to ask, and it depends on what side of the Interstate the cows are on, I can get close to 800 yards. I have to get permission, but it shouldn't be a problem. This place is less than 10 minutes from my home. Good coyote hunting there too. It's on a chicken/ turkey/ and cow farm.
Link Posted: 2/22/2012 2:19:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2012 2:46:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
The next test honestly should involve all barrels of the same length. Either 16" or 14.5, since those are the most common. Like I said, if you can get up here, I have a Spikes 16" that has less than 100 rounds through it if that, and in fact probably closer to 50-75 range. My son got much worse health wise not long after we sold his Oly and bought the Spikes. He never really got to shoot it. If you get up here during the week, there are two 100 yard ranges that are pretty empty on weekdays. I also have a friend that we can get 400 yards on his ( actually his father's, but he wouldn't mind out of season ),property.

If, and I would have to ask, and it depends on what side of the Interstate the cows are on, I can get close to 800 yards. I have to get permission, but it shouldn't be a problem. This place is less than 10 minutes from my home. Good coyote hunting there too. It's on a chicken/ turkey/ and cow farm.

Dear God in Heaven, if you guys shoot a cow we never heard of you  


lol. My eyesight is pretty bad, but they haven't started calling me Aimless yet. lol
You really need to head south and hang out here for a few days. I'll take you down to Palmetto State Armory , and even show you really rare cows, ( only a few breeders in the U.S., ), and let you drink some good raw milk from them.
Link Posted: 2/22/2012 2:49:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2012 2:51:28 PM EST by Aimless]
Link Posted: 2/22/2012 3:01:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Maybe there is still a little life left in a standard barrel beyond the CL. If there is, another layer or thickness of chrome might wear slower than unlined bore. Maybe that is the big idea behind that extra lining.


Aimless,
The "break-in Watusi"....

Fire 1 shot, 25 patches, swab twice with bore conditioner, 25 patches, electric slide, macaranga, moonwalk, 50 hail Kreigers, 3 sips of beer, spit twice NNE while standing on the support side foot, repeat for 100 rounds.




BTW OP, GREAT JOB, I am digging this.
Link Posted: 2/22/2012 4:04:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By diaz_aa:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Maybe there is still a little life left in a standard barrel beyond the CL. If there is, another layer or thickness of chrome might wear slower than unlined bore. Maybe that is the big idea behind that extra lining.


Aimless,
The "break-in Watusi"....

Fire 1 shot, 25 patches, swab twice with bore conditioner, 25 patches, electric slide, macaranga, moonwalk, 50 hail Kreigers, 3 sips of beer, spit twice NNE while standing on the support side foot, repeat for 100 rounds.




BTW OP, GREAT JOB, I am digging this.


I did as Kreiger says on my first Kreiger barrel and it was THE MOST ACCURATE barrel I have ever owned.
I am about to order another one and I WILL break it in as they say.





Bill
Link Posted: 2/22/2012 6:51:45 PM EST
This thread has been a good read.  

Is PSA still the best place for a goo bang for the buck chrome lined barrel.

I've seen DD cut rifling and hammer forged.  Cut is cheaper, does that make it a #2 pick?
Link Posted: 2/22/2012 7:02:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2012 7:03:19 PM EST by Operator42]
Double tap
Link Posted: 3/6/2012 9:18:09 AM EST
Just a thought if you guys do another test.... $89 M4 style stripped barrel LINK  They also have complete heavy or M4 contours for $150
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