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Posted: 9/28/2004 5:56:21 AM EST
Does anyone know what kind of reputation these guys have for quality, customer service, ETC?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:06:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By KDragon:
Does anyone know what kind of reputation these guys have for quality, customer service, ETC?



FN doesn't sell any of its M16 products to the civilian sector. Legally they cannot.

Beware of anyone selling anything and they represent it as 'FN produced'.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:07:49 AM EST
BTW I'm sure Tweak will be along shortly and post the letter from FN stating what I have just outlined. If you're in a hurry you can sign up for AR15-L@Yahoogroups.com and seach the file archived there - a copy of the letter is stored there.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:25:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:
BTW I'm sure Tweak will be along shortly and post the letter from FN stating what I have just outlined. If you're in a hurry you can sign up for AR15-L@Yahoogroups.com and seach the file archived there - a copy of the letter is stored there.



I just signed up to that group specifically to see that letter. (My account their is currently pending). If it doesn't cause any sort of issue, if would be nice if that was psoted here and tacked to the top as this subject seems to come up often.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:44:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 8:48:06 AM EST by Forest]
Here is the Link to FN Letter in Tweak's Folder

Here is the Text:

From: Rodger Young [mailto:artweaker@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 8:40 AM
To: Beryl Myers
Subject: Parts Q



Beryl,

First, let me congratulate FN on being progressive enough to allow their staff to have open email addresses. It truly simplifies things.

We've never spoken before but I'm a regular on many of the online AR15 forums and a fan of FN’s military products.

I worked at Olympic Arms for several years as an assembler, am a US Army trained small arms repairer, and a Colt certified AR Armorer but please don't hold that against me. :D

Cutting to the chase, I see many shops listing "FN" AR15/M16 parts for sale but since I've been told by several reputable sources that FN doesn't sell AR15/M16 parts to the civilian sector I'm curious as to the origin of these parts. Are these deals I see listed simply scams or is there something I'm missing?

There is an ongoing thread regarding this subject on one of the larger forums and I wish to get 'the word' hoping to bring the thread to a close.

Looking forward to your answer,



=====
Tweak, WA


philogynist
WA State Shooters E-List
wa-shooters-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


"You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass." Trooper. M. Padgett

Subject: RE: Parts Q
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 11:22:22 -0500
From: "Beryl Myers" <---------@fnmfg.com>
To: ARtweaker@yahoo.com


Rodger,
Thank you for your email. We have become aware of this issue as well, and you are correct, FNMI ONLY produces and sells M16 Type Weapons for and to the US Government. We are prohibited from any other sales based on a Non Disclosure and Non Use Agreement, with the US Government.

The only explanation that we have been able to gather, is that these shop have gone to some of our suppliers who, either from a drawing supplied by that shop or from one of their own, is producing the part and selling it commercially, and that supplier says, that the parts are made to the same quality as FN parts.

I hope that this helps. If not, let me know.

Beryl


Addendum:
Beryl forgot to mention that FN’s subcontractors are bound by the same Non Disclosure and Non Use agreements as FN. That is a government requirement to obtain the Technical Data Package (TDP) containing the prints and procedures for making each item. That means that these subcontractors would be in violation of the TDP agreement if they use the information for something other than what was outlined in their contract with FN.




I edited the letter as follows:
1) Highlights in Red & Blue to point out specific information
2) Removed the e-mail addresses so Spamers can't get them (if you go to the original letter you can see them).
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:07:28 AM EST
FAC of America has uppers and barrels in their catalog. They are listed as first run.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 12:01:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 12:02:43 PM EST by Forest]

Originally Posted By KDragon:
FAC of America has uppers and barrels in their catalog. They are listed as first run.


Which tells you somthing about FAC...

I mean Geez they sold Hesse products.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 12:08:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 12:09:23 PM EST by Aimless]
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 12:19:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I still don't see a company the size of FAC lieing about this,



Yet their barrels are unlined 1:9 twist? Hmm all military barrels are 1:7 and are chrome lined (and NONE of them are HBARS).

The Plot Thickens...
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 12:31:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 12:36:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 12:48:22 PM EST by fight4yourrights]
FN DOES NOT sell to the commercial market.


I meet people from FN all the time at military shows, and I often ask the question.

Tweak's letter is the response I always get. Legally, they CAN NOT sell to the commerical market.

People here love to presuppose they know something, often based on a feeling. Some of us check into things.

I was always asking if S&W was still bound by the HUD agreement. Many here tried to tell me that they weren't. I finally contacted S&W and got the straight scoop - technically, yes they are. Further conversations convinced me they can't get it cleared right now, and they won't be obeying it anyway. Point being, until you hear if from the horse's mouth, you don't know for sure.



If you don't believe me, Forest or Tweak, ask them yourself.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 12:38:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 12:43:38 PM EST by Aimless]
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 1:12:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 1:16:29 PM EST by cgv69]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
There's an old thread about this, I'll see if I can find it. Anybody have a link to thread about what the FN barrels are marked?

Could these be barrels a different FN division (i.e. not the US one) made and were imported?

too old, couldn't find it



I think you are talking about a thread I started based off of a barrel I bought from Fulton Armory. (I can't find the original thread anymore either). This barrel is 100%, no question about it, FN produced M16 barrel and is not any kind of factory 2nd or reject (which is what most people like to assume)






For those having a had time reading this pic... FNMI MP 5.56 NATO 1/7

There is a lot of debate about how these parts get out but they do in fact get out. Too many to just write them all off as stolen, particularly when they are being sold by places like FAC and FA in number.

Is FAC selling genuine FN M16 uppers? Don't know haven't seen one but you can't just dismiss it because of FN's sales agreement with the USG. There are ways for FN parts to legally hit the civilian market without FN breaching their contract. Keep in mind, FN is the only one bound to the agreement (assuming it does in fact exist). The contract in no way regulates what the USG (or individual Dept's within the USG) do with the parts once received.

Link Posted: 9/28/2004 2:06:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:37:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By cgv69:
This barrel is 100%, no question about it, FN produced M16 barrel and is not any kind of factory 2nd or reject (which is what most people like to assume)


How can you say that? What proof do you have that it is not a factory reject?

Because the only other option is stolen USG property...


Don't know haven't seen one but you can't just dismiss it because of FN's sales agreement with the USG.

It's not just a 'sales agreement' - it's a legal binding which Colt has already gone to court once over.

Besides there is the statement (above) from one of FN's executives.

BTW FN at one time did come to the site and make a similar statement


The contract in no way regulates what the USG (or individual Dept's within the USG) do with the parts once received.

Actually the agreement does - It's part of the agreement between Colt and the US Gov (about surplusing parts & weapons). But it would be up to Colt to cry foul if the USG suplused the parts.

BTW why would they be surplusing A2 uppers & barrels when there are units that still have M16A1s?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:41:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:
How can you say that? What proof do you have that it is not a factory reject?

Because the only other option is stolen USG property...



I'm sorry Forest but I don't have the patience to play this game again. This has already been hashed out here once before and I don't have the time or energy to play again. If somebody here has the ability to search back more then 3 months maybe they can find the original thread.

Long story short, This barrel was verified as a true FN barrel by both an FN employee and by other members here who an intimate knowledge of FN made M16's. The FN employee I referred to is an Engineer there (as well as a member of this forum) and his office is next to one of the assembly\machining areas. He verified that FN does not mark, package, sell or in any other way release barrels that do not pass their inspections. Defect barrels go into a barrel for recycling.

As far the stolen and contract issues. Once the USG buys a rifle (or rifle component) they can do what ever they want with it. There is no law, contract or agreement telling them that they can not sell anything but just to play along for a minute, lets say there was. That still would not stop a unit or agency who needed to raise capital for other non-budgeted item to sell off assets not knowing (or possible caring) what the contract details where with FN.

Believe what I have written or don't. That's up to you but I have given you the straight scoop based off of a lot of research and conversations with people who know.
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