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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/6/2003 7:55:12 PM EDT
[noobie-mode on] I am considering replacing my standard handguards with 1 of these 2 (carbine length). I plan to use it basically to attach a fore-grip, possibly use it for future items (?), and for the visual improvement it provides. I understand that the FIRSH free-floats the barrel, should I consider this in choosing? Any opinions and/or pics will be greatly appreciated. [/noobie-mode]

(yes, I have read the tacked topic )
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:05:14 PM EDT
Well if you don't want to spend the money on a free float system like the FIRSH, SIR, etc., then you could get a set of First Samco M33 handguards. They are bi-rail (two rails) and are fairly reasonable. I have a set on my Bushmaster M4A3 and I love them. Here's a link to them. [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/handguards/fbs-m33.asp[/url] They now make a four rail set of handguards. [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/handguards/fbs-m44.asp[/url]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:20:22 PM EDT
Oh god. please, get the FIRSH. The SAMCO's really are the bottom of the barrel. They are not bad for some applications, but really, the FIRSH is the better system. If they cost anything more at all, it will easily be worth the added expense. Do you have a flash hider or muzzle brake on your barrel?
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:30:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By new-arguy: Oh god. please, get the FIRSH. The SAMCO's really are the bottom of the barrel. They are not bad for some applications, but really, the FIRSH is the better system. If they cost anything more at all, it will easily be worth the added expense. Do you have a flash hider or muzzle brake on your barrel?
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I agree, if you have the money to spend. However, if you do get the FIRSH, new-arguy is trying to say that you have to remove your flash hider or brake if you have one to install the FIRSH. If you are not a gunsmith or are afraid to screw something up, then have a gunsmith install the FIRSH if you get it. If you really want to step up your rifle, then I highly recommend the ARMS SIR or KAC RAS II. However, the M33 handguards will work fine until you can afford something better.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:31:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By new-arguy: Oh god. please, get the FIRSH. The SAMCO's really are the bottom of the barrel.
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I second this. The FIRSH is a real bargain for a railed FF handguard. The only thing you can put on a First Samco handguard that doesn't really need to be free-floated is a light. If you want a sling mount, forward grip, or optic on the handguard, you'd better have an FF tube, and the FIRSH is the cheapest railed FF tube out there. I have them on 3 of my 4 ARs.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 9:01:06 PM EDT
I also agree with the above comments about the FIRSCH. I currently run one on one of my carbines and find it a really secure and stable optic platform.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 9:04:52 PM EDT
By all means get the FIRSH! You can add whatever you have in mind to it and it doesn't give you that CHEEZY look and feel. A buddy of mine bought the Samco junk, and now he uses it as a play toy for his Labs. [img]http://www.msnusers.com/_Secure/0TQDiAhkWeErqL!HZE4xdU!8qQiSIVRf9n11A8zk9kZAQ­F7dWCGoNSKghsRS*HHhHFBOdrbx15FQ9yJ!fN!U6J7Z9t­K3pXpBkwxmM9yrDEwAYkh4CsASHeg/Finished-AR1-015.jpg?dc=4675419207762147114[/img]
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 1:06:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fizassist: I second this. The FIRSH is a real bargain for a railed FF handguard. The only thing you can put on a First Samco handguard that doesn't really need to be free-floated is a light. If you want a sling mount, forward grip, or optic on the handguard, you'd better have an FF tube, and the FIRSH is the cheapest railed FF tube out there. I have them on 3 of my 4 ARs.
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This sounds weird to me... I thought "free floating" applies to the barrel in regards to the handguards which results in (marginally?) more accuracy. Why would someone NEED an FF tube to mount a sling/grip/optic as you said?
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 1:15:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2003 1:18:50 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Because the M-33, plastic handguards probably don't have level rails like a real FF tube. Even if you manage to mount an optic on there, it won't retain zero because the handguards will be able to move around enough to mess up the zero. Also the pastic probably isn't strong enough to stand up to use with a swivel, or verticle grip mounted on it.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 5:00:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2003 5:03:51 AM EDT by fizassist]
Originally Posted By TPS-Report: This sounds weird to me... I thought "free floating" applies to the barrel in regards to the handguards which results in (marginally?) more accuracy. Why would someone NEED an FF tube to mount a sling/grip/optic as you said?
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If you mount a sling (that you're goin to use for shooting support), bipod, or vertical grip to a rail that is bearing directly on the barrel (as is the case with the standard handguards and the First Samco versions), you apply pressure to the barrel when firing. If that pressure is not completely uniform every single shot, you will lose accuracy. It won't matter at 15", but it will be noticable at 100 yards. If you mount these items on a rail on a FF tube, you are bearing on the upper receiver, not the barrel. The First Samco rails aren't great for optics because, as OLY-M4gery said, they will have some play to them, even if they are a tighter fit than the standard handguards. That means you could loze zero over time. Again, you probably won't notice the effect at 15".
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 7:34:43 AM EDT
Thanks for the replies! In regards to a brake or flash suppressor, my barrel is the 'naked' crowned type. I'm hoping that means installation would be easier? It seems that the majority recommend the FIRSH between the 2. I have looked @ the SIR, but do not really want to spend that kind of $$ on it, I also want to keep sort of an original look as well. Keep em comin'!
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 11:07:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SuperYiggie: In regards to a brake or flash suppressor, my barrel is the 'naked' crowned type. I'm hoping that means installation would be easier?
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Yep! What you would need to do is: 1) knock out the taper pins holding the front sight tower in place. Make sure to punch from the small side. [;)] 2) slide off the front sight tower, handguard cap, and handguards. You can leave the gas tube attached to the front sight tower. 3) remove the existing barrel nut with a barrel wrench. 4) install the FIRSH barrel nut with a barrel wrench (and a torque wrench). 5) screw the FIRSH on the barrel nut 6) replace the front sight tower and pound the taper pins back in.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 12:34:16 PM EDT
if i have an m4gery with m4 handguards, will the carbine length firsh fit? does anyone know the lengths of the m4 handguards compared to the carbine HG's?
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 12:42:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TPS-Report: if i have an m4gery with m4 handguards, will the carbine length firsh fit? does anyone know the lengths of the m4 handguards compared to the carbine HG's?
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M4's are carbine length. M4 handguards are double insulated, and a little more oblong. Same length.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 12:55:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tzyck: By all means get the FIRSH! You can add whatever you have in mind to it and it doesn't give you that CHEEZY look and feel. A buddy of mine bought the Samco junk, and now he uses it as a play toy for his Labs. [url]http://www.msnusers.com/_Secure/0TQDiAhkWeErqL!HZE4xdU!8qQiSIVRf9n11A8zk9kZAQ­F7dWCGoNSKghsRS*HHhHFBOdrbx15FQ9yJ!fN!U6J7Z9t­K3pXpBkwxmM9yrDEwAYkh4CsASHeg/Finished-AR1-015.jpg?dc=4675419207762147114[/url]
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How do you like the TAC-MIII light? I am considering one to replace my Surefire G2. I have heard good things about them and for a very bright light with a remote switch, they seem like a bargain.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 5:00:21 PM EDT
SuperYiggie, I made the mistake of buying the Samco first. Big mistake! The rail covers are so loose it is a joke and they look and feel CHEESY. They stayed on my M4 only long enough for me to get a Surefire 500A. I have since put a FIRSH on my son's 24" Bushy, and have been very impressed by the quality for the price. Don't make the same mistake I did, get the FIRSH FIRST! Say that ten times fast. However, if you decide to get the Samco, IM me I'll make you a h*ll of a deal on a barely used pair! DILBERT_556
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 5:24:12 PM EDT
No matter which way you end up going you want to free float the barrel. It is the best thing you can do for consistant accuracy.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 5:29:08 PM EDT
I have the First Samco four rail handguard on one of my ARs. I only use it for a vertical foregrip. I have completely satisfied with it. It fits tight, it is very strong, and provides the function I wanted without spending a fortune on it. If money is tight, I would not hesitate to recommend it. I also have another AR with a KAC RAS II on it. There is no comparison between the two. The RAS II is IMO the ultimate. But, it is also what 3X the price ?
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 9:02:17 PM EDT
Thomas, The TAC-MIII light has worked fine for me. There are poeple that say if it's not a surefire it's crap. The light is just as bright as a surefire. I have ran a few K rounds though my weapon w/ the TACM and has never failed. I can afford a surefire but I just had an easy opportunity to purchase the TACM. I see no reason to replace it.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 9:31:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 5:35:33 AM EDT by fizassist]
Originally Posted By 444: I have the First Samco four rail handguard on one of my ARs. .... If money is tight, I would not hesitate to recommend it. I also have another AR with a KAC RAS II on it. There is no comparison between the two. The RAS II is IMO the ultimate. But, it is also what 3X the price ?
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The FIRSH wins on economy, too! $100 for the handguard (+$35 if you want rail panels) vs. $130 for the M44. If the M44 was in the sub-$50 range, I'd say it had a niche. As it is, I think the FIRSH wins hands down, unless you don't want to do the 10 minutes of work necessary to install it. Edited to ad: if you have a welded/pinned comp, you're looking at more than 10 minutes of work to install the FIRSH.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 11:03:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2003 11:08:46 PM EDT by 444]
I must have got lucky because my M44 was $99. And you are right, I am not willing to do the work to install a FIRSH. The M44 handguards are on a post ban gun and removing the muzzle brake would be more than a 10 minute job. I have no real intention of doing anything to my pre-bans, so the point is moot. The money wasn't even an issue. It is an aftermarket item that does exactly what I wanted it to do and does it well. It certainly isn't the best possible solution, but it is far from what some of the earlier posts described. I have the M44 handguard on a Bushmaster M4 clone. I am planning on sending that upper to KKF to have the mini-y comp removed. After I get it back a year later, I plan on putting another KAC RAS II on it; if that is the best option at that time. At that point, the M44 will be easily removed and moved on down the line to another AR. I have become quite fond of the vertical foregrip. I now have one on my main go-to AR and one on my backup. When I have the RAS II on my backup, I will then also have a vertical foregrip on my thrid in line gun. In addition, I am going to be buying a Surefire 900 series light. With the M44 handguard I can install them in seconds on any one of my eight ARs that dont' have a RAS II and can use that rifle with my light. Personally, I think the ease of installation and removeal makes it worthwhile in and of itself.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 5:22:38 AM EDT
I've got the M33's, and have to say I've been happy with them on my M4. I don't mount optics on it, but they're tight, firm, and the rubber rail covers are TIGHT. Perhaps I got lucky, but for the price and EASE (I don't want to remove my comp and front sight), it was unmatched. I plan on mounting AT THE MOST maybe a vertical foregrip and/or a light. The flat-top receiver is where I'm putting my ML2 and BUIS. Just my $.02. My next M4 will have some kind of fancy rail system on it for sure, but this one is staying the way it is... for now, at least. [;)]
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 9:54:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SuperYiggie: Thanks for the replies! In regards to a brake or flash suppressor, my barrel is the 'naked' crowned type. I'm hoping that means installation would be easier?
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Here are the directions on how to install FIRSH... [url]http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/Olympic/how_to_install_FIRSH.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 12:08:12 PM EDT
The M33s are great if you have 2 CAR length guns. I bought one set to put a foregrip on my Bushy Superlight, worked great and made my brother (who has my old HBAR CAR) jealous. I put the original upper guard back on mine and put the 1/2 Samco on his and now we both have foregrips. Of course I had to one-up so I made a custom weaver mount for my Surefire 6p and put it in my ideal spot to use the light with my left thumb.
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