Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 9/24/2004 2:28:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2004 2:29:07 PM EST by bgcc11]
Anyone ever hear of an FFL who wont release a rifle (to the paid in full buyer) until they receive their original signed copy of the FFL that they sent to the seller?
This is happening in Washington State.
Is it even legal to keep someone's property like this?
I thought I needed to keep the original.
How else can I prove that I had the original?
Thanks
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 2:33:27 PM EST
I've never heard of such a thing.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 2:41:19 PM EST
StrkAliteN
Member
Joined :: July 2002
Post Number :: 146

WA, USA

User Info IM User Email User Reply Quote Edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

added note*

Be VERY careful of which gun shop / FFL you are using to transfer - recieve your LE rifles.

Rumors are circulating that some dealers are recieving the LE style rifles and KEEPING THEM knowing they can sell them themselves for big profits while demand is high & supplies are low.


Link Posted: 9/24/2004 2:43:26 PM EST
My above post was made earlier today on a seperate thread on this board.

This latest run on these premium LE guns has some dealers ( very few I would think ) doing less than ethical business practices.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 2:46:04 PM EST
If the rifle came from another dealer I belive that the selling dealer needs to have included a copy of their FFL with the firearm so that the receiving dealer can properly log the firearm into their bound book.

Of course, I could be wrong. That happened once
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 2:55:59 PM EST
I sent a post ban rifle to an FFL in WA to transfer to an AR15 member in WA.
I received the original ink signed FFL copy from that pawn shop before I shipped the rifle.
The pawn shop wont release the rifle to the current owner until I send them their original ink signed FFL copy.
I thought I had to keep that original ink signed copy for my records.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 2:58:58 PM EST
BS. The seller IS NOT REQUIRED TO EVEN HAVE AN FFL.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:00:01 PM EST
You don't have to keep it, and there is no law saying that you have to send it back. What shop is this? I am in WA and would like to know before I buy anything from an FFL here.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:02:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2004 3:03:13 PM EST by Aimless]
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:07:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What shop is this? I am in WA and would like to know before I buy anything from an FFL here.



+1
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:11:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
He wants the original FFL back from you because he's afraid you will use to illegally acquire guns with it. He sounds like an idiot, but if you are not an FFL you don't need it anyway so either send it back or copy it and send it back. I guess it's either that or you can just tell the buyer it's his problem as the deal was that you get to keep the original so the problem is between him and his ffl. Personally I'd just mail it back.



I'm going to overnight it on my dime.
This guy has been waiting a week already.
I just figured I needed the original for my records.
I guess not.
Thanks
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:14:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By Capro:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What shop is this? I am in WA and would like to know before I buy anything from an FFL here.



+1



It would probably be bad form to advertise the name of that shop in Lakewood; so I won't.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:15:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2004 3:17:34 PM EST by MT_Pockets]
I am not sure if the story you are hearing is factual.

A normal sale that involves a transfer would have the receiving Dealer sending a COPY of their FFL Document with ORIGINAL SIGNATURE to the Dealer shipping the firearm.

The Dealer that ships the firearm should not do so until he/she receives the COPY of the FFL Document.

Never send your FFL Document only a copy with a fresh signature.

And never give a copy to a customer to send to their Dealer...only Dealer to Dealer..

MT

Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:15:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:24:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By MT_Pockets:
I am not sure if the story you are hearing is factual. IT TIS

A normal sale that involves a transfer would have the receiving Dealer sending a COPY of their FFL Document with ORIGINAL SIGNATURE to the Dealer shipping the firearm. THEY DID. I'M NOT A DEALER. IN FLORIDA A CIVILIAN CAN SEND A FIREARM DIRECTLY TO A DEALER.

The Dealer that ships the firearm should not do so until he/she receives the COPY of the FFL Document. SEE ABOVE.

Never send your FFL Document only a copy with a fresh signature. !

And never give a copy to a customer to send to their Dealer...only Dealer to Dealer..
?
MT


Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:29:08 PM EST
Guns can only be shipped to the addy on the FFL, so I don't know why he would be worried that you would buy guns with it, they would be free when they hit his door.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:34:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:39:17 PM EST
Did the dealer send you his ORIGINAL FFL? I could see him wanting that back!
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:44:35 PM EST
Well HECK , I got a couple of signed FFL copies layin around somewhere
that I got when I sold personal rifles to guys in other states.

Hell , maybe I'll send away for an UZI or Two

Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:47:25 PM EST
If the dealer sent you and ink signed copy of his license, that is what you needed to ship the gun. This is mostly a CYA thing to make sure the address you shipped to has a valid FFL. I would, and always have kept that license for my records.

I have a C&R FFL. I sign it in ink, blue. I then use a highlighter, mark through the center of it one big line from corner to corner. I write on it with a pen or a sharpie, FILE COPY.

Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:53:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Guns can only be shipped to the addy on the FFL, so I don't know why he would be worried that you would buy guns with it, they would be free when they hit his door.



Got me, but I've heard this before, probably a bunch of baloney but for some reason dealers seem to think you're going to do something- I don't know what, buy guns from a distributor and drive off with them saying that you are picking them up? who knows with gun dealers.



Basicly, a lot of FFLs WON'T send copies to unlicensed persons. They are afraid of the recipient making "photoshop" copies with altered info to acquire firearms illegally.

It HAS happenned.

However THIS FFL is an idiot. He already sent the copy, the recipient would be free to photocopy it, return the original and STILL illegally "photoshop" it to make counterfeit FFLs.

Makes no sense whatsoever.

The place I work at is one of those that does NOT send copies of FFL to individuals. No legal requirement to do so when the sender is a non-licensee. What we do in this instance, is require a copy of the sender's driver's license (address MUST be the same as return address on the package), or state issued ID, along with a statement describing the firearm, including serial number, and stating the firearm is his legal property.

This has worked quite well, with no problems.



Lonny
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:57:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2004 3:58:12 PM EST by MT_Pockets]

Originally Posted By MT_Pockets:
I am not sure if the story you are hearing is factual. IT TIS

A normal sale that involves a transfer would have the receiving Dealer sending a COPY of their FFL Document with ORIGINAL SIGNATURE to the Dealer shipping the firearm. THEY DID. I'M NOT A DEALER. IN FLORIDA A CIVILIAN CAN SEND A FIREARM DIRECTLY TO A DEALER.

The Dealer that ships the firearm should not do so until he/she receives the COPY of the FFL Document. SEE ABOVE.

Never send your FFL Document only a copy with a fresh signature. !

And never give a copy to a customer to send to their Dealer...only Dealer to Dealer..
?
MT



Sorry was just sharing the info that is available on the Washington end of the world. We are lucky to be able to send a blunt object from person to person.

MT
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 4:02:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2004 4:02:50 PM EST by gaspipes]
Lonny, how does the seller of the rifle, unlicensed individual, varify he is sending to a real dealer if he doesn't get a copy of the FFL? Just send the rifle to Bob's Gun Shop. We are dealers, you can tell by the name. Bob's Gun Shop?
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 4:16:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By BB:
BS. The seller IS NOT REQUIRED TO EVEN HAVE AN FFL.



While this is very much true, most FFLs are VERY reluctant to do a sale/transfer from an non-FFL. They are very paranoid about stuff and most are ignorant of the current laws regarding interstate sals/transfers.

I aint saying its right, just a fact of the times.....
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 4:25:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By gaspipes:
Lonny, how does the seller of the rifle, unlicensed individual, varify he is sending to a real dealer if he doesn't get a copy of the FFL? Just send the rifle to Bob's Gun Shop. We are dealers, you can tell by the name. Bob's Gun Shop?



FFL EZ check on BATF website can verify if it is a valid FFL, by using the first three and last five digits.

I understand what you are saying, and it is a bit of a problem in some instances, but if you have to ship a gun back to the factory for repair, the factory doesn't send you an FFL copy, do they?

Also, I forgot to add, there are a large number of dealers, due to lack of knowledge, or fear of complications, who will NOT accept shipment from a non-licensed individual, requiring the shipment be made from the seller's local FFL dealer.

Maybe someone ought to contact BATF Legal Division, and get a written clarification.



Lonny
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 4:34:22 PM EST
That's screwed up. I am in WA state and here's what I go through when buying a rifle.

1. Get FFL from local dealer.
2. Mail the FFL to the place I buy the rifle from.
3. Order the rifle and pay for it.
4. The manufacturer of rifle ships it to the dealer from #1 above.
5. I pick up my rifle at the dealer with $15-25 dollar transfer fee.

That's it.

If you aren't experiencing this in WA, your dealer has problems.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 5:18:43 PM EST
Lonny, sending a gun back to the mfg.....I guess we all know who Bushmaster is and that they definetly have a license. I've sent guns to "kitchen table dealers". I feel better having a copy on file. Any store(ffl) can use the EZ check too. But they all want that license on file.

I think it's funny, some shops won't except a gun shipped from an unlicensed individual because "they need a license for the records" But they will buy and sell and trade all day long over the counter. Fact is, all they need is the name and the adress of the person the rifle came from, end of story.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 5:47:31 PM EST
Seller is required to ship rifle to an FFL if out of state, that's the federal law. While it's spelled out that seller must receiver an FFL, it is the normal practice for receiving FFL to send an ink signed copy to the seller. The seller's FFL must be paranoid to not allow copies sent to nonlicensed individuals. Not to mention the shippers often ask for the destination's FFL upon knowing it's a firearm. If they are paranoid, have them write "For File Copy" on it. Of course, in Photoshop you can do lots of stuff, including editing address info and wiping out "File Copy".
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 6:13:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Beyond_Visual_Range:
Of course, in Photoshop you can do lots of stuff, including editing address info and wiping out "File Copy".



It's kinda hard to Photoshop the info obtained from the ATF's FFL eZ check.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 1:54:02 PM EST
My FFL here in the Seattle area told me it was a WA state requirement that he receive and keep a copy of a signed FFL for all my firearm transactions. Basicly he had to have a FFL from the seller or he could not legally (under WA law) complete the transfer. Remember these guys have to abide by state and local laws in addtion to federal firearms laws.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:43:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Soup-Nazi:
My FFL here in the Seattle area told me it was a WA state requirement that he receive and keep a copy of a signed FFL for all my firearm transactions. Basicly he had to have a FFL from the seller or he could not legally (under WA law) complete the transfer. Remember these guys have to abide by state and local laws in addtion to federal firearms laws.



Most dealers either don't know the law or blow smoke up your ass. Check this before you believe.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:27:11 PM EST
I have dealt with retards like this before ! Maybe a IQ test should be given before they receive their liscence and a reminder "YOU ARE HERE TO SALE ME A FIREARM NOT TO MESS UP MY DEALS ".......................................................GOOD LUCK
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:57:46 PM EST
I have delt with some dimwit FFLs as well. Go in there and have the guy call the local ATF field office (you should probably be in ear shot for this) and ask them about the requirements for recieving a firearm from out of state. Tell the sale idiot it is just for your piece of mind or whatever, and then wait for the call to end and an apoligy from Cheif "I HAVE AN FFL AND KNOW ALL GUN LAWS BUT NOT REALLY". Despite what alot of dealers say they often times don't know thier ass from a hole in the ground . A couple years ago I went from being accused of commiting a felony (by the OWNER no less, not even a retard salesman) to a no eye contact apoligy-you were right in a span of 2 minutes, after I told him to go ahead and call the ATF branch chief.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:01:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By bgcc11:
Anyone ever hear of an FFL who wont release a rifle (to the paid in full buyer) until they receive their original signed copy of the FFL that they sent to the seller?
This is happening in Washington State.
Is it even legal to keep someone's property like this?
I thought I needed to keep the original.
How else can I prove that I had the original?
Thanks



Are you a dealer?

If not, why do you have his FFL?

Remember: FFL signed copy is only required between dealers, non-dealers can ship to a FFL if they run the LIC# thru EZcheck....
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:02:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By gaspipes:
Lonny, sending a gun back to the mfg.....I guess we all know who Bushmaster is and that they definetly have a license. I've sent guns to "kitchen table dealers". I feel better having a copy on file. Any store(ffl) can use the EZ check too. But they all want that license on file.

I think it's funny, some shops won't except a gun shipped from an unlicensed individual because "they need a license for the records" But they will buy and sell and trade all day long over the counter. Fact is, all they need is the name and the adress of the person the rifle came from, end of story.



The reason the FFLs don't use EZcheck is that they are REQUIRED to get a signed copy.

Non-FFLs are not required to do this...
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:20:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 7:24:49 PM EST by grizzlyarms]
i am an FFL. the seller, if not licenced, does not have to send the buyer ANYTHING, except their name and address. i usually require a photocopy of their drivers licence, or if it is from an FFL, that person is Required to have MY FFL. if that person doesn't, it's his ass with the ATF, not mine. point is, I need the ffl from the buyer or do an in person 4473 to be legal.


edited to add- if you are a seller, it is a very good idea to demand an FFL, period. that way you know who is actually receiving the gun.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 4:43:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 4:58:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 4:19:16 AM EST by ian187]
This whole thing stinks from both ends.

Link Posted: 9/30/2004 4:59:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 5:00:35 PM EST by Stokes]
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 6:19:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 6:48:48 PM EST by Perfectforce]
Sounds like some communication breakdown between some people here. I think it's an interesting concept to ask for the FFL back, that never crossed my mind. Anything to avoid being mixed up in a scandal with the ATF crawling up your ass sounds like a wise plan.

Edited to add: If I was going to ask for an FFL back I wouldn't even send it in the first place. If one was so inclined to forge documents they would be scanning it anyways, so sending back a FFL they scanned stops nothing imho, just wastes stamps and creates problems.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 6:43:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 8:36:24 PM EST by jonathan1994]
The way I have read it, the Law would say that the fullfilments for the transfer were met without the signed copy being returned. This was only a company policy, not the Law, saying the FFL copy had to be returned. Whether or not this is illegal or not I dont know. It depends on the wording of the law. Most likely its worded something like " once blah, blah, blah, and blah have been met, the FFL MUST transfer the firearm to the owner". If thats the case, then the shop was legally in the wrong. Any other policy it sets would contradict the law

It If the law is worded " the shop MAY NOT transfer blah blah blah UNTIL blah, blah, and blah has been completed" , then the company can set any other policy it wants.

Also note that if an FFL does not get a reply from the NIC check within 3 days, they must transfer the firearm anyway.

Some state laws with the waiting periods dont apply to the NIC or transfer, but other separate ownerhip or whatever permints. So even the state laws cant override the FFL laws. (this part Im not certain of since I live in gun loving Mississippi and my FFL dont charge a dime or give any troulbe. He does it all legally and I've had to force him to take money for doing the transfer so I could feel good about myself)

Keep the flames below 900degrees F if im wrong on something boys

Edited per what Stokes said
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 7:16:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:38:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
He wants the original FFL back from you because he's afraid you will use to illegally acquire guns with it. He sounds like an idiot, but if you are not an FFL you don't need it anyway so either send it back or copy it and send it back. I guess it's either that or you can just tell the buyer it's his problem as the deal was that you get to keep the original so the problem is between him and his ffl. Personally I'd just mail it back.


Aimless is right on the info and the comment about the FFL holder being a nut. Since Gun Dealers are only going to ship to the address on the FFL, I don't see where you keeping the signed copy would be a problem. There's a web site that dealers can use to verify FFL's.
Sending it back is the right thing to do after you record the info for your records.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:56:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:15:28 PM EST
I have heard of the same thing happening. Gun dealers are getting their hands on AR's that are hard to come by right now and selling them for huge profits. I have a great dealer that I use and he will get any gun I have sent to him and pass it along to me. I only pay $25 for his receiving it. He's never done me wrong and now I don't even have to call him when I have ordered a gun and he calls me within minutes of the time it arives at his shop. A great dealer that's trustworthy and honest is worth a premium!
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 10:19:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 10:20:13 PM EST by SAICO]

Originally Posted By Stokes:
And, just to give PBNW a little plug, if you're in the South Sound Region, he's conviently located right off I-5 in Lakewood. You don't even need to come into the store until your gun arrives. Give him a call with your details and who you want his license sent to, he'll mail it off, and then call you when the gun arrives. When you're done with the 4473 and the NICS, hand him $15 and you're done. Pretty damn convient and easy. Following a few prudent rules that he has set shouldn't be a problem when he goes out of his way to make things easy on you.



Stokes steered me towards PBNW a while ago, because I wanted an FFL that's trusted and wouldn't monkey with some large ticket items I was purchasing. They're over an hour's drive and I'll gladly continue to do so for "ALL" my transfers large and small. And as Stokes mentioned, I only have to call and its taken care of from there.

And BTW, he's hardly an idiot as someone called him.

Link Posted: 9/30/2004 10:59:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By black_heart:
I have heard of the same thing happening. Gun dealers are getting their hands on AR's that are hard to come by right now and selling them for huge profits. I have a great dealer that I use and he will get any gun I have sent to him and pass it along to me. I only pay $25 for his receiving it. He's never done me wrong and now I don't even have to call him when I have ordered a gun and he calls me within minutes of the time it arives at his shop. A great dealer that's trustworthy and honest is worth a premium!



Did you read any of the posts besides the first one?
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 1:00:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 1:02:09 AM EST by redmenace]

Here is a little background information. As a non-licensee, Bgcc11 has absolutely no need or requirement to have an certified ink signed copy of PBNWs license. It doesn't matter what is written on it (FILE COPY ONLY), it's still a legal copy, and you don't need it. I don't blame any FFL for not wanting someone to have a legal copy of thier FFL. The risk of fraud is there, and a risk that is absolutely unnecessary.


So why in God's name did the FFL send out the license in the first place if they didnt want him to have a copy?

Apparently this shop runs the most bassackwards transfer in the entire state. Thank you for identifying them so i know at least one place NOT to do business with.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 5:36:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By redmenace:

Here is a little background information. As a non-licensee, Bgcc11 has absolutely no need or requirement to have an certified ink signed copy of PBNWs license. It doesn't matter what is written on it (FILE COPY ONLY), it's still a legal copy, and you don't need it. I don't blame any FFL for not wanting someone to have a legal copy of thier FFL. The risk of fraud is there, and a risk that is absolutely unnecessary.


So why in God's name did the FFL send out the license in the first place if they didnt want him to have a copy?

Apparently this shop runs the most bassackwards transfer in the entire state. Thank you for identifying them so i know at least one place NOT to do business with.



+1
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 5:43:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 5:52:09 AM EST by _DR]
It all sounds like a chinese fire drill to me.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:11:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 6:20:38 AM EST by TheTic00]
I will also vouch for PBNW
He also held a order or two of mine until he had the necessary paperwork. From what I understand paperwork needs are a bit different for pawn shops.
When I was in my buying frenzy he took care of me. He took care of my ridiculous orders with no complaints as long as the law was followed. I even had 8 guns come in one shipment with no complaints about all the paperwork. PBNW is probably one of the strictest FFLs I have ever dealt with, who can blame him with all the law suits, but he was also one of the best priced. Many FFLs want tax + 10% just to transfer something that you already paid for. I have 3 or 4 shops within a few miles of me but I still drive the 20+ miles up I-5 to deal with PBNW. I would say this is the FFL that we all wish FFLs were, he has to make a buck to keep the doors open but he isn't trying to rape us with fees. Nothing is better than transfering a 4000.00 riffle with a 15.00 fee, no tax no 10%. I have to assume after this thread is done PBNW will only have more business.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top