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Posted: 9/17/2004 9:39:09 AM EST
I tried to buy a new stripped lower this morning and my fav. gun shop believes that they can not sell lower receivers except as a replacement. They said the ATF had audited them a few years back and told them they could not sell stripped lowers (I think ATF made it sound like no new guns could be manufactured, as in machine guns, but the FFL assumed ARs). Any official documents floating around that I can show them? I tried searching, but could not find anything within the last 30 days. Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:59:39 AM EST
Find a new FFL.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 10:06:28 AM EST
I had a FFL tell me that too. I knew he was wrong and I will never go to that sporting goods store again. If he is ignorant on that issue what else would he be wrong about? There are plenty off FFL holders around. Like Engineer said, "Find a new FFL."
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 10:07:52 AM EST
The serial # on the part makes it a firearm, stripped or not.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 10:08:12 AM EST
Yeah, I figured a new FFL would be the way to go. Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 10:12:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Engineer:
Find a new FFL.



+1 Life's too short to dick around.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 10:21:18 AM EST
Also possible he doesn't want to sell you a $200 lower that you can stick an upper on for around $350.

He'd probably rather sell you a complete rifle for $800+

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 11:49:47 AM EST
That is most like it.

Another excuse, "If you build it wrong, and it blows up, the liability comes back on me because I sold it to you, and I don't want to be responsible."

BS!

Best thing to do, find another FFL. The manufacturer should be able to direct you to dealers in your area.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 11:49:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By W-W:

Originally Posted By Engineer:
Find a new FFL.



+1 Life's too short to dick around.



+2 Life is too short to waste money buying from idiots. Besides, he obviously doesn't want your money
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 11:54:04 AM EST
I can help you with this.
Red
919-414-3247
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 12:15:04 PM EST
A while back I walked into a new gun store in North East Florida and I talked to the owner for awhile. I asked for a blue inked sighned copy of his FFL so I could order a gun/lower from a dealer here.

You would have thought I had asked for his first born son. I got the impression that he did not want to do a tranfer or my bussiness(sp). I had a copy of the FFL I have/had been using in the trunk of my car (he gives them to me two at a time, and with the ban now being gone I called him last week and requested he send me two more in the mail - I had them the next day).

Needless to say to this date I have not bought so much as a box of ammo from that store. The sad part is his shop is only five miles from the house and is well stocked with the black gun stuff.

I only I had a dollar for every dumb statment I have heard inside a gun store, I could by my wife dinner at outback tonight.

Rant off,

Badredfish

P.S. there are some good shops out thers, and they are not always the biggest.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:34:29 PM EST
Dont reward idiot or lying dealers with your hard earned cash.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 4:06:38 PM EST
anybody need lowers e-mail me fantasyfirearms@yahoo.com


We are in central FL

call my cell

863-558-1049

LT
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:05:31 PM EST
Tell your FFL to quit smoking his lunch.
In fact the ATF auditor probably supplied it to him.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 2:28:50 PM EST
I had to call around and go to several different shops after getting answers like, "We don't do those" or "People will only do illegal stuff to them". Where in TX are you?
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 2:50:36 PM EST
+1 on the "It isn't a receiver it is a firearm.."

They are processed through NICS just like a complete rifle would be...but I usually write "receiver" on 4473.

MT
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:48:38 PM EST
Your not by any chance in College Station, Texas are you? A buddy of mine got a complete ass chewing from (the place with the indoor range) for asking about ordering a striped RRA lower. He even called back on different days and talked to different folks, and the same bullshit spewed from their mouths. They said he'd go to jail for even possessing a stripped lower with intent to build an AR15! He was just wanting to put together a CMP type match rifle with a plain SS barrel! F-ing Idiots! What really pisses me off is, I've supported this place over the years, and have spent over $3k with them. Screw them, I'm doing all my business with the other gun shop (which also sells backpacking gear) :)
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:53:54 PM EST
You mean you actually have them order things for you?

Instead of buying it somewhere else & having them send the license?
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:03:56 PM EST
Usually I do ~75% of my stuff online and have it shipped in. However, there were a couple instances where it was actually cheaper to buy complete firearms from them instead of paying shipping & transfer fee's. Regardless, this place had always taken care of me up until about a month ago when the above instance occured.

It's their problem they don't know the law, and I fault them even more for NOT finding out & getting back with us. Their idle threats about jail were completely off base and uncalled for. After all, they've got even more resources than we do, and can easily check the legality of stuff if they'd pull their head out of their arse.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:08:27 PM EST
What we need is a listing by state of FFL's/gunshops that will transfer or have in stock stripped receivers.

Vulcan94
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:12:49 PM EST
95% of shops will do transfers, it's just the prickish minority that won't, and you can easily tell by their price tags on Bushmasters LOL! Yeah, I won't mention any shops by name, but this past summer, one particular shop was wanting $1149 for a post-ban, 16" A3 (no carry handle) plain-jane flat-top bushmaster AR15 LOL. For the out-the-door price with tax on that rifle, I could have bought TWO!!!
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:53:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 3:00:27 AM EST
+1 on finding new FFL. Plenty of them out there and in your area. Just look around.

Also welcome to the site!!
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 5:29:01 AM EST
Dads house is about 15 minutes from Denny's/GTS...hahahahahahahaha!!!

Bad gunshops do indeed suck ass, thankfully I've got Dennys and a good one down in Springfield.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:00:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By TXAGGIECCL:
Your not by any chance in College Station, Texas are you? A buddy of mine got a complete ass chewing from (the place with the indoor range) for asking about ordering a striped RRA lower. He even called back on different days and talked to different folks, and the same bullshit spewed from their mouths. They said he'd go to jail for even possessing a stripped lower with intent to build an AR15! He was just wanting to put together a CMP type match rifle with a plain SS barrel! F-ing Idiots! What really pisses me off is, I've supported this place over the years, and have spent over $3k with them. Screw them, I'm doing all my business with the other gun shop (which also sells backpacking gear) :)




Dealers must've graduated from A&M, lmao. Hook 'em, baby!

J/k TXAGGIECCL, Gig em!
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:06:17 AM EST
I've met some serious asshat FFLs in Texas, for some reason. I went to visit my parents in Houston about 5 years ago, and we decided to go shoot at this indoor range....I don't remember the name. I had a suppressed .22 with me, and a copy of my paperwork, and the dipshit got all huffy with me and said I couldn't shoot it unless I had the ORIGINAL paperwork with me. He said that's what ATF told him when they were in there the previous week.

I said, hmmm...did he also point out to you that that SP89 you have in the case there is an illegal AOW with that K-grip you have mounted on it? Unless YOU have paperwork on it?

He blew up - "That's not illegal, you don't know what the hell you're talking about!"

I didn't say anything, just opened my cell phone, dialed 411, and asked for the ATF's Houston office number so we could get a ruling on both questions.

He told me to get the fuck out. I and did.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:36:10 AM EST
I am sorry about the way dealers have been treating you... BUT in the dealers defense, alot is up the ATF Inspector to determine and understand the law... When I started out I had the ATF tell my that I should apply for a manufactures licsense if I plan on doing gunsmithing... They said that if I change the value of a firearm, i.e. put a scope on it then it is considered manufacuring...


What r you going to do...

NOT all of us are IDOTS!!!


LT

Link Posted: 9/19/2004 9:14:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By rescue:
NOT all of us are IDOTS!!!



Maybe not all but my experience has been that most are. In fairness though, I've seen a lot of the asswipes that dealers sometimes have to put up with. Some of them are bad enough for me to know I would never want to be a dealer!
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 10:03:17 AM EST
So, I went to the Gander Mountain in Wausau, WI the other day & asked a nice youg guy " Do you sell AR15's?" and he said "What are they? I just started here." I told him that it is basically the civilian version of the M16, but "you know, semi-automatic." He said that he would ask someone so he went over to another guy who told him, "No." I said "OK" & walked away.

Now, tell me, why would Gander Mountain, or any gun shop for that matter, hire someone who knew nothing about guns & put them in the gun department?
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 10:06:51 AM EST
There is a manufactureing definition under the "Gun Control Act" Which is as we all know is a reciever. Then under TTB There is an "Act Of Manufacture" or "Manufacture of a Taxable Article" This is serious stuff, if you are caught Manufacturing taxable articles without paying excise tax thats tax evasion. You can manufacture for yourself or for others if they furnish all the parts. But you can not buy all the parts from the same store and not pay excise tax. It is called selling in "Knockdown Condition". If you buy the reciever from me I cannot build the rifle for you. Even if you have all the other parts. If your excise tax liability exceeds 2000 in any quarter you must have a type 7 manufacture licence. If you build custom Guns for a means of income You need a Type 7. in order to file quarterly's you need a type 7 its a slippery slope there are conflicting deffinitions that can catch you up in the grey area. best do your homework.


+1 Get a new FFL. There is nothing stopping a Type 1 FFL from selling recievers.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 10:14:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
The serial # on the part makes it a firearm, stripped or not.



Acording to the gun control act you are right. Acording to TTB its not a gun till it can go bang.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 12:20:52 PM EST
Them FFl's want to get you anyway they can. It is like doing transfers. My one and only choice is charging me $40 per serial number. Good thing is going to be just one time and just 2 items.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 1:15:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By TXAGGIECCL:
Your not by any chance in College Station, Texas are you? A buddy of mine got a complete ass chewing from (the place with the indoor range) for asking about ordering a striped RRA lower. He even called back on different days and talked to different folks, and the same bullshit spewed from their mouths. They said he'd go to jail for even possessing a stripped lower with intent to build an AR15! He was just wanting to put together a CMP type match rifle with a plain SS barrel! F-ing Idiots! What really pisses me off is, I've supported this place over the years, and have spent over $3k with them. Screw them, I'm doing all my business with the other gun shop (which also sells backpacking gear) :)



Yep, I am hanging out in CS. Class of '02. I have purchased several pistols and my first AR at Champion and always had good experiences with them. But with their total lack of knowledge on this issue, I will definitely be looking someplace else in the future.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 1:48:58 PM EST
Dang, of all the FFL's in Texas, I called this one correct! (I had no clue what city you were in either).
Go to Burdett's. I've actually got two stripped lowers from RB Precision coming in Monday @ Burdett's, and my buddy's national match stuff should be in my the end of the month (RRA is really backed up with certain items). RB Precision already has Burdett's signed ink copy of their FFL, so you should be set.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 1:55:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By hardcase:
So, I went to the Gander Mountain in Wausau, WI the other day & asked a nice youg guy " Do you sell AR15's?" and he said "What are they? I just started here." I told him that it is basically the civilian version of the M16, but "you know, semi-automatic." He said that he would ask someone so he went over to another guy who told him, "No." I said "OK" & walked away.

Now, tell me, why would Gander Mountain, or any gun shop for that matter, hire someone who knew nothing about guns & put them in the gun department?



My OLD favorite FFL lost a lot of his old employees - you know, the gun guru types you go to for ANSWERS, and he replaced them with guys who had a lot of experience in retail sales. They may have known fishing or hiking, but nearly all of them were pretty lame when it came to guns. The gun section is 2/3rds of the store.

I preferred to deal with his 80 year old mom at the shop. She did not put up any pretension.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:23:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By ArmorerKrug:
You can manufacture for yourself or for others if they furnish all the parts. But you can not buy all the parts from the same store and not pay excise tax. It is called selling in "Knockdown Condition". If you buy the reciever from me I cannot build the rifle for you. Even if you have all the other parts.



Exception is:

"The gunsmith sells a firearm to the customer and makes alterations to it as separate transactions."

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 9:21:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By hardcase:
So, I went to the Gander Mountain in Wausau, WI the other day & asked a nice youg guy " Do you sell AR15's?" and he said "What are they? I just started here." I told him that it is basically the civilian version of the M16, but "you know, semi-automatic." He said that he would ask someone so he went over to another guy who told him, "No." I said "OK" & walked away.

Now, tell me, why would Gander Mountain, or any gun shop for that matter, hire someone who knew nothing about guns & put them in the gun department?



If you're in wausau, try the dunham's there. They have a big book and they can special order bushmaster's. Hell, dunhams is even stocking AK's and FAL copies now.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:50:02 AM EST
Badredfish, right on man. I never thought of getting signed copies from ffl holders. Its the ignorance out there that seems to rule the land. I bet there is less sense among ffl holders than there are with sense. Hell I never did think of asking for a signed ffl to shop around with. I have to be checked anyway right? so what difference does it make? I mean hell! You woke me up. I mean if anything they should be proud to give them out, more advertising.hippie.gif
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:21:33 AM EST
Hell, you'd think they'd be calling YOU to get your transfer business. Heck at $15-$30 pure profit for 5 minutes of work, who WOULDN'T want transfers?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:31:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By badredfish:
A while back I walked into a new gun store in North East Florida and I talked to the owner for awhile. I asked for a blue inked sighned copy of his FFL so I could order a gun/lower from a dealer here.

You would have thought I had asked for his first born son.



Perhaps, but if he hands you the FFL and you go to a local gunshow and walk out with a dozen handguns using his license, who's gonna get screwed when one of them ends up at a crime scene? Years ago dealers would do this, but not any more. Your best bet would be to print a copy of your order w/ CC number or money order and take it with a stamped, addressed envelope to the dealer where he can stuff his FFL in the envelope, seal it, and then send it with the rest of his outgoing mail. That way he's covered and since you did all the leg work he should be willing to charge you no more than the usual nominal transfer fee...
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:23:49 AM EST
heres some help and if your around houston give coz a ring did some transfers with him and went down very smooth and you pay what its worth ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=8&t=182816
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:15:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By GcS:

Originally Posted By badredfish:
A while back I walked into a new gun store in North East Florida and I talked to the owner for awhile. I asked for a blue inked sighned copy of his FFL so I could order a gun/lower from a dealer here.

You would have thought I had asked for his first born son.



Perhaps, but if he hands you the FFL and you go to a local gunshow and walk out with a dozen handguns using his license, who's gonna get screwed when one of them ends up at a crime scene? Years ago dealers would do this, but not any more. Your best bet would be to print a copy of your order w/ CC number or money order and take it with a stamped, addressed envelope to the dealer where he can stuff his FFL in the envelope, seal it, and then send it with the rest of his outgoing mail. That way he's covered and since you did all the leg work he should be willing to charge you no more than the usual nominal transfer fee...



I suppose that an FFL will to that IF he knows you REALLY well.

Since my buddy got out of guns, I go to another place..... and I do exactly that. Have an envelope addressed, stamped and w/ the info of the weopon being transfered. My transfer dealer says I'm the only one who comes in ready like that. All they do is put in the FFL and mail it w/ their stuff.... they even stamp the return addy on it. I figure it's easier on the dealer, and getting the info wrong is only blamed on one party, the person requestion the transfer. Actually, when a weopon is received, my transfer dealer WILL NOT open the box w/out the person who bought it present.

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:01:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 2:02:02 PM EST by TheAmaazingCarl]

Originally Posted By sluther:
I had a FFL tell me that too. I knew he was wrong and I will never go to that sporting goods store again. If he is ignorant on that issue what else would he be wrong about? There are plenty off FFL holders around. Like Engineer said, "Find a new FFL."




totally correct, this is their business he should know it, what if he gives you advice on a weapon and sells it to you when he shouldnt. his mistake, but i imagine you would still get hammered by the po po
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:40:04 PM EST
So what would be considered a "taxable article". SBR, AOW, or RR? What if you want to buy a particular AR15 in a certain set up that is not in mass production?

For example: M4 profile, 16" bbl, SIR (painted blue), A3 upper w/an Eotech, Magpul stock, and the whole rifle painted saftey orange.

So I can't just walk up to a regular 'ol FFL individual and say, "Here is a deposit. I'll pay you the rest when it's ready to pick up." The FFL needs a manufacturers license? There are extra taxes involved in him building a rifle like that for me? (Cause I really want one.)

What if I want a .50 Bewolf upper attatched to a RRA lower? If he buys these items from individual dealers and assembles them for me, any extra taxes involved? Does he need to be a gunsmith?

I think a FFL 01 can do those things. Nothing special.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:42:07 PM EST
Plenty of dumbass places, find a new one try that one again in 4 or 5 years.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 9:19:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By newbe:
So what would be considered a "taxable article". SBR, AOW, or RR? What if you want to buy a particular AR15 in a certain set up that is not in mass production?

For example: M4 profile, 16" bbl, SIR (painted blue), A3 upper w/an Eotech, Magpul stock, and the whole rifle painted saftey orange.

So I can't just walk up to a regular 'ol FFL individual and say, "Here is a deposit. I'll pay you the rest when it's ready to pick up." The FFL needs a manufacturers license? There are extra taxes involved in him building a rifle like that for me? (Cause I really want one.)

What if I want a .50 Bewolf upper attatched to a RRA lower? If he buys these items from individual dealers and assembles them for me, any extra taxes involved? Does he need to be a gunsmith?

I think a FFL 01 can do those things. Nothing special.



You need to read teh regs yourself. Visit www.ttb.gov/ for more information. It has a lot of information, but even then you will probably have to go to the regs, I usually do.

If you do NOT want to pay any taxes on it, have yuor dealer order everything but the bolt carrier assembly and you buy the BC assembly. Pay for everything and give the FFL the BCA and have them assemble the whole deal. That should be legit, IMHO.

If he buys parts from multiple dealers/manufacturers, then FAET needs to be paid on it. 10% for handguns, 11% for everything else.

In regards to your belief that a ype 01 can do it, sure he can, but depending on how they do it, they can be taxed or charged with tax evasion.

Read the TTB site as it will give you a basic understanding. Better et, I did the leg work for you... read this.. www.ttb.gov/fet/faet_gunsmiths.htm

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
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