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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 1/18/2015 9:18:31 AM EST
So, why is everyone selling em and selling em cheap? They're not illegal to own, just not legal to shoulder.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 9:20:22 AM EST
Most people got them with the intent to shoulder them. It's as simple as that.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 9:22:03 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TeeRex:
Most people got them with the intent to shoulder them. It's as simple as that.
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Yep
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 9:34:39 AM EST
I need one for my sbr
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 1:22:41 PM EST
how long ago did braces officially come out with the original letter? Just trying to determine how long it took for it go full tard and then getting kiboshed... Just so I can keep track as people get stupider.

For all the olds (early 40s myself) who told you to knock it the F off and keep it on the down low and were routinely bashed on this forum, there I told you so...

I miss the old days when people could keep shit on the down low and then 5-10 years or even longer, it was too late to do anything about it. Now every idiot has to crow from the rooftops on how awesome they are.

And please don't start with how this should all be legal and what not, if so go to court over this.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 1:25:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By KYGun:
So, why is everyone selling em and selling em cheap? They're not illegal to own, just not legal to shoulder.
View Quote

I sold mine because everyone else was panic selling them. They will be worth $50-60 within a few weeks.

I've been planning on selling mine for months to fund a tax stamp, If I wanted any decent amount of money out of it, I needed to sell it now.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:03:20 PM EST
I had two, one is mounted, the other was not and slated for a future project. I dumped it at a small loss. Did I panic? Nope. Just realized that soon they would lose their value.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:32:45 PM EST
My brand new one is literally on the way in the mail!!!! My timing is awesome!
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:44:01 PM EST
Osage County Guns is selling the SB15 for $89.99 in both black and FDE....
FDE
Black
They state "No Returns" down in the description. They have sold thousands of the braces in the past.. guess they know something we don't yet...
I wonder how soon the other retailers will follow suit??
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:45:38 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By azlester:
Osage County Guns is selling the SB15 for $89.99 in both black and FDE....
FDE
Black
They state "No Returns" down in the description. They have sold thousands of the braces in the past.. guess they know something we don't yet...
I wonder how soon the other retailers will follow suit??
View Quote

They are stating no returns because they know the demand for the brace is now gone.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:53:07 PM EST
$89 is not really cheap. They should be blowing them out at $25, IMO. They are basically worthless. They were basically worthless before anyways.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 3:16:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 3:33:53 PM EST by averwo]
nvmd
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 9:53:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 9:55:22 PM EST by CavScout8]
The SB15 won't be worth much in a little while.

But that's not nearly as bad as how much SB47 braces will lose in value. I'd definitely dump those, even if you lose a bit. In no time you'll completely lose your butts on them. I was informed of that just earlier today by some high up resources who are definitely in-the-know and the someone high up in the BATFE.

On a completely unrelated note, I'm looking for an SB47 brace.... anyone looking to dump?
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 11:17:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ebman74:
My brand new one is literally on the way in the mail!!!! My timing is awesome!
View Quote

I use the same technique when purchasing homes
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 11:44:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 11:44:33 PM EST by Ej6fade]
The desicion on the Sig brace doesn't change anything imo. Don't be stupid, don't shoulder it in front of an ATF guy or an LEO that cares, don't be on camera. We all knew this was gonna come sooner or later...
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 12:14:22 AM EST
Yep, jumped from that sinking ship. Sold mine three weeks ago for nearly full purchase price. Oh well, it was a nice idea while it lasted.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 12:18:55 AM EST
Least people didn't raped as bad on this deal as the Akins Accelerator. I think they were like a grand new.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 3:59:17 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ebman74:
My brand new one is literally on the way in the mail!!!! My timing is awesome!
View Quote


See if they will take it back?? Hopefully before a store "policy" change
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 4:30:59 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TeeRex:

They are stating no returns because they know the demand for the brace is now gone.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TeeRex:
Originally Posted By azlester:
Osage County Guns is selling the SB15 for $89.99 in both black and FDE....
FDE
Black
They state "No Returns" down in the description. They have sold thousands of the braces in the past.. guess they know something we don't yet...
I wonder how soon the other retailers will follow suit??

They are stating no returns because they know the demand for the brace is now gone.


I wouldn't say demand is gone. This has drawn a lot of attention to them. Slickguns lists the SB15 as a top seller right now. And $89 isn't cheap, since the new version, the SBX, is selling for $109. I think the panic will settle down when people realize nothing has changed. You guys are acting like the braces were made illegal, they were not.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 9:23:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By KYGun:
So, why is everyone selling em and selling em cheap? They're not illegal to own, just not legal to shoulder.
View Quote


You think it says it is illegal to shoulder because it may be written the way you think it is? It did not say that.

It said ''using, redesigning it as a shoulder stock'' would be. Using a physical item for a different purpose IS NOT a redesign of that item in any physical sense and not what you think it means. This does not set any legal precedent that I can now submit patents on existing items because I will ''use'' them differently and that means they are now my designs, or redesigns.

To make this simple, I can not make an exact copy of a UBR stock and sell them because I have redesigned them to be paper weights.
I can not walk down the street swinging an M4 rifle and tell the police this is a fly swatter because that is my redesign of it.
The ATF wants you to think you can not shoulder it but the problem is that once they called it an arm brace you could .
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 9:36:14 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bigjunk1:


You think it says it is illegal to shoulder because it may be written the way you think it is? It did not say that.

It said ''using, redesigning it as a shoulder stock'' would be. Using a physical item for a different purpose IS NOT a redesign of that item in any physical sense and not what you think it means. This does not set any legal precedent that I can now submit patents on existing items because I will ''use'' them differently and that means they are now my designs, or redesigns.

To make this simple, I can not make an exact copy of a UBR stock and sell them because I have redesigned them to be paper weights.
I can not walk down the street swinging an M4 rifle and tell the police this is a fly swatter because that is my redesign of it.
The ATF wants you to think you can not shoulder it but the problem is that once they called it an arm brace you could .
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Originally Posted By bigjunk1:
Originally Posted By KYGun:
So, why is everyone selling em and selling em cheap? They're not illegal to own, just not legal to shoulder.


You think it says it is illegal to shoulder because it may be written the way you think it is? It did not say that.

It said ''using, redesigning it as a shoulder stock'' would be. Using a physical item for a different purpose IS NOT a redesign of that item in any physical sense and not what you think it means. This does not set any legal precedent that I can now submit patents on existing items because I will ''use'' them differently and that means they are now my designs, or redesigns.

To make this simple, I can not make an exact copy of a UBR stock and sell them because I have redesigned them to be paper weights.
I can not walk down the street swinging an M4 rifle and tell the police this is a fly swatter because that is my redesign of it.
The ATF wants you to think you can not shoulder it but the problem is that once they called it an arm brace you could .


If you've the time and money for a winning defense then I say go for it. I'm not rich so I think I'll play it safe. I dumped my braces while they still had some value.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 10:33:54 AM EST
It actually states that improper use is a redesign Not that I am in panic mode but the letter states that buy shouldering you are causing a redesign. This is a excerpt from the actual letter by Max Kingery

The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 10:44:20 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By nsane1:
It actually states that improper use is a redesign Not that I am in panic mode but the letter states that buy shouldering you are causing a redesign. This is a excerpt from the actual letter by Max Kingery

The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.
View Quote


I think I should start injection molding Magpul products (this is an example), and sell them as paper weights, because according to the BATF I have not violated any copyright laws because it is a redesign. Remember the ATF is branch of the government and what they write could have consequences for other parts of the government as well.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 10:52:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2015 10:53:19 AM EST by DanishM1Garand]
Firing an m1 carbine while wearing boots with laces isn't illegal. Using a boot lace to act as a sear is.


This ruling isn't any different.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 11:01:21 AM EST
Well since I bought a different brand and it's just a cover for the pistol tube and it makes a great cheek weld, I'm keeping mine.

Like one of the previous threads here, people don't know how to keep their mouths shut. With all these sources of social media ie: YouTube, FB, Twitter and shit people feel that they have to put all of their business out there for everyone to see.

Just got my tinfoil hat on, has anyone ever thought that the government has made these sites so they can keep track of who has what? Just saying!

Just put my tin foil hat back in the closet.

Doc
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 12:07:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2015 1:09:48 PM EST by Yelpers]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
Firing an m1 carbine while wearing boots with laces isn't illegal. Using a boot lace to act as a sear is.


This ruling isn't any different.
View Quote


It's completely different. I mechanical device that pulls the trigger for you is different than how one shoots a legal firearm. His definition makes any pistol with a barrel shroud an AOW. Before, a barrel shroud was just there to protect you from burning your hand after firing. Now, if you use the off hand to control the pistol while firing, you've redesigned it. He can't arbitrarily pick and choose where that definition is applied. That's called being "arbitrary and capricious". That's a legal term you can google.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/25/shoestring-machine-gun/
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 2:50:32 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Yelpers:


It's completely different. I mechanical device that pulls the trigger for you is different than how one shoots a legal firearm. His definition makes any pistol with a barrel shroud an AOW. Before, a barrel shroud was just there to protect you from burning your hand after firing. Now, if you use the off hand to control the pistol while firing, you've redesigned it. He can't arbitrarily pick and choose where that definition is applied. That's called being "arbitrary and capricious". That's a legal term you can google.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/25/shoestring-machine-gun/
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Originally Posted By Yelpers:
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
Firing an m1 carbine while wearing boots with laces isn't illegal. Using a boot lace to act as a sear is.


This ruling isn't any different.


It's completely different. I mechanical device that pulls the trigger for you is different than how one shoots a legal firearm. His definition makes any pistol with a barrel shroud an AOW. Before, a barrel shroud was just there to protect you from burning your hand after firing. Now, if you use the off hand to control the pistol while firing, you've redesigned it. He can't arbitrarily pick and choose where that definition is applied. That's called being "arbitrary and capricious". That's a legal term you can google.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/25/shoestring-machine-gun/


I will never, ever again talk about building my ARs on a shoestring budget. I don 't want the mistaken identity of being a machine-gun maker!
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 7:45:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2015 7:51:49 PM EST by aircorpnut]
sold mine this morning for what i paid for it, then bought another one for $25 less than i sold mine for. may do the same thing tomorrow with the other one i have on hand.

call me a profitteer if you want, but i'm in the same place i was yesterday, but with an extra $25 in my pocket! sure beats pissing away $40-$50 out of fear...


edit: just had someone offer me 16 100rd packs of mini mags for my other brace, so any of you guys who need to dump your brace off for $50, let me know.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 8:19:29 PM EST
on a side note, they are fun to use as a arm brace, I do Mr. Roboto and fire off some rounds, it actually does improve the accuracy vs. unsupported. And I get all the laughs...

If I was retired and was all DILLIGAF, I would start sending in letters asking about my redesign of the arm braces into couches, sex toys, etc...

BTW, still legal although unsure about making them folding and/or dramatically increasing the length of them.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 8:24:24 PM EST
What I want to know is where are all the -14.5" uppers???? If people are selling off there braces and tubes then where are the uppers going?

If you sell off the tube and brace and have a sub 16" barrel then you have an intent to manufacturer a SBR if you have a lower sitting around or rifle. That's how I always interpreted the law.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 8:53:03 PM EST
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Originally Posted By doubleshot00:
What I want to know is where are all the -14.5" uppers???? If people are selling off there braces and tubes then where are the uppers going?

If you sell off the tube and brace and have a sub 16" barrel then you have an intent to manufacturer a SBR if you have a lower sitting around or rifle. That's how I always interpreted the law.
View Quote

Dude, AR pistols were around a LLOOOONNNNNGGGGGG time before the SB15!
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 8:55:42 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doubleshot00:
What I want to know is where are all the -14.5" uppers???? If people are selling off there braces and tubes then where are the uppers going?

If you sell off the tube and brace and have a sub 16" barrel then you have an intent to manufacturer a SBR if you have a lower sitting around or rifle. That's how I always interpreted the law.
View Quote


unless that lower can be traced to a previously built rifle there is nothing to worry about. if it was built as a pistol first, it can legally be swapped back & forth.

something else to think about:

us population: 317,000,000

batfe employees: 4770

# of citizens per each batfe employee: 66,457

does anybody honestly think that all the atf has to do is go door to door checking inventory on what parts people have in their posession? unless you are up to other felonious activities that pop up in an investigation or are drawing major attention in some other way, i don't think they will ever show up at your door.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 9:43:56 PM EST
I know the sb15 has been around a long time but people are selling the buffer tubes too. So in theory they have a lower with no buffer and a upper with a sub16" barrel. What's the plan now is what I would like to know.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 9:57:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By doubleshot00:
I know the sb15 has been around a long time but people are selling the buffer tubes too. So in theory they have a lower with no buffer and a upper with a sub16" barrel. What's the plan now is what I would like to know.
View Quote


Your point is what?
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 10:16:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By aircorpnut:
sold mine this morning for what i paid for it, then bought another one for $25 less than i sold mine for. may do the same thing tomorrow with the other one i have on hand.

call me a profitteer if you want, but i'm in the same place i was yesterday, but with an extra $25 in my pocket! sure beats pissing away $40-$50 out of fear...


edit: just had someone offer me 16 100rd packs of mini mags for my other brace, so any of you guys who need to dump your brace off for $50, let me know.
View Quote


That's pretty funny! Keep doing that and see if you can get enough cash to buy another pistol!
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 10:23:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2015 10:23:39 PM EST by ebr_citizen]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doubleshot00:
I know the sb15 has been around a long time but people are selling the buffer tubes too. So in theory they have a lower with no buffer and a upper with a sub16" barrel. What's the plan now is what I would like to know.
View Quote
Your question has already been answered. AR pistols have been around long before there was ever a Sig brace.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 10:33:34 PM EST
This makes me glad I do 99% of my shooting on my own private property. Of course, I will abide by all ATF rules and regulations.
Link Posted: 1/20/2015 2:22:19 PM EST
If this whole debacle hasn't proved the ATFs incompetence, I don't know what will. They clearly can't do their jobs, fuck em. If anything these new rulings make all SBRs legal as long as you don't intend to shoulder them.
Link Posted: 1/20/2015 2:26:49 PM EST
Well If I were still living In rural PA on 100+ acres I would shoot what I want when I want. Yes I would be rocking an SBR with suppressor and no paperwork.

But that is not the case now and I follow all the rules since I either shoot on game land or private ranges.
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