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Posted: 7/8/2004 6:23:25 PM EST
Hey
Has anyone messed around with paintball markers much? A lot of the high end ones have electronic triggers. These triggers use a sollonoid to release the sear, rather than a standard mecnanical trigger. My paintball marker has a trigger with about 20 grams of force required to fire, and around .5 mm of travel. With this, I can fire 15 shots a second by drumming my 1st 2 fingers of my trigger hand, much like drumming your fingers on a table. Has anyone tried to install the internals from a electric paintball marker on a modified ar15 lower receiver, to make an electrically operated ar15? This would offer tons more firepower than the standard ar15 with semi auto. Reliablity is not a problem; these trigger set-ups fire hundreds of thousands of times without a problem. The electronic set-up I am planning to use (if I ever get around to this project) cannot be made to fire full auto, so this should be legal. Any feedback ideas/comments? I am curious if anyones knows if this is legal, and if anyone sees any practical problems with it. This is not something for defense weapon, just a novelty project. Here is a link to an electric paintball trigger being tested that shows the rate of fire.
http://www.dragunempire.com/movs/tes.wmv
Link Posted: 7/8/2004 6:30:59 PM EST
I got a dogs timmy up to 19 bps with not much effort. There are vikings that have cycled at 40 CPS which is amazing if you think about it.

Justin
Link Posted: 7/8/2004 6:44:42 PM EST
It is legal only if you cannot, CAN NOT convert it to Full Auto at ALL. That is a BATF requirement. Oh, and it only fires once per trigger pull.

But it seems pretty dangerous to me.
Link Posted: 7/8/2004 6:53:52 PM EST
i know several people with extremely light, tweaked out triggers like that on their PB guns. They ND all the time. Don't know how'd I'd like that on a real gun. And really, what difference does 5 extra rnds per second make doing what your talking about as opposed to bump firing? I can bump a whole mag controlled from the shoulder, using sights, in about 2.5 seconds. Just doesnt seem very safe.
Link Posted: 7/8/2004 7:26:11 PM EST
you are kidding me right?
Link Posted: 7/8/2004 7:55:32 PM EST
Check the ATF site, I was curious about doing that too....but its not legal.

I'm too lazy to check, but there is some ruling on electronic, or motorized methods attached triggers.
Link Posted: 7/8/2004 8:07:29 PM EST
I B T L!!
Link Posted: 7/8/2004 8:34:50 PM EST
Not much more useful than to waste good ammo...but whatever floats your boat.

PeeKay...you have the best signature line on this site.

what, did you loose your retaining spring again?
Link Posted: 7/8/2004 8:56:42 PM EST
learn to bumpfire

there are lots of cool thingds you could do to make a gun shoot faster, but some of them are in a gray area, i do not like to play in gray areas, that is where you get in trouble
Link Posted: 7/9/2004 1:43:29 AM EST
IBTL
Link Posted: 7/10/2004 8:57:50 AM EST
Electronic triggers have been manufactured on pistols in the past, so I don't see any problem.
Link Posted: 7/10/2004 9:06:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2004 9:07:23 AM EST by Mordak]
+1 on the IBTL! Cool idea though.
Link Posted: 7/10/2004 9:10:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/10/2004 8:34:28 PM EST
What about that Remington Enox, I think that is right. It was a bolt action that ran off electricity and a mouse click trigger. Remington probably would have sold a lot more of them if they didn't require special ammo with electric primers.

Jerad

O'yea I've got an E-blade Autococker and a Dark Angel, both of which ROCK!!! I would love to see an AR with a trigger like a Paintball gun; you could fire it quickly from the shoulder with a very high rate of fire.

Link Posted: 7/10/2004 8:47:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
learn to bumpfire

there are lots of cool thingds you could do to make a gun shoot faster, but some of them are in a gray area, i do not like to play in gray areas, that is where you get in trouble



+1

Link Posted: 7/10/2004 9:08:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
If it was just an electronic mechanism firing the gun in a traditional semi-automatic manner, I'm not sure it'd be illegal



Nope, The electronic switch become the means of fire, and if the switch allows more than 1 shot per depression, then the rifle is a Machine gun.

Link Posted: 7/10/2004 9:37:03 PM EST
not sure what paintball gun internals your looking at but on the angel i had in the past along with almost any other electronic gun the brain in it controlls the time the gas valves are open. there is also a big series of valves(angel had a 14-way valve) to control the forward and backward movement of the bolt. put it all together and you can get a gun going 20 rounds/sec. no problem at all. to the best of my knowledge there is no way to put those kind of control units in a gun, especialy a gas operated one.
Link Posted: 7/10/2004 10:28:23 PM EST
The main potential for electronic fire-control is NOT rate-of-fire...

It's trigger precision...

With a touch-pad trigger, you could get a PRECISE 4.5lb pull with no actual trigger movement (or whatever weight you want. 4.5 is mandatory for service-rifle, so I used it as an example), the other possibility would be a dial-a-trigger circuit...

However, if your firing mechanisim is readily convertable to full-autio (eg snip-ship, solder, braaappp), the ATF will not be happy...

One shot per function of the trigger, no exceptions...

Link Posted: 7/10/2004 10:30:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jerad:
What about that Remington Enox, I think that is right. It was a bolt action that ran off electricity and a mouse click trigger. Remington probably would have sold a lot more of them if they didn't require special ammo with electric primers.

Jerad

O'yea I've got an E-blade Autococker and a Dark Angel, both of which ROCK!!! I would love to see an AR with a trigger like a Paintball gun; you could fire it quickly from the shoulder with a very high rate of fire.




Etronix gun was bolt-action, DEFINATELY legal, as no amount of electrical mods would make it a MG...

The question with a semi-auto is 'With a soldering iron and a nearby RadioShack, how easy is it to make this thing go full-auto'...

If the ATV believes the answer is 'too', then they will ban said gun by administrative fiat...
Link Posted: 7/11/2004 6:04:53 PM EST
I would also think that you would be limited by the cyclic rate of the weapon, the bolt carrier and gas system wouldn't be abl to keep up with that rate?
Link Posted: 7/12/2004 12:44:00 AM EST
form being a paintballer since it began in 86 and having all the electro guns made now. a few are incredible ie: angel, matrix, e-mag, eclipse cockers, bushys, ect id say yes you could do that but you need a machine shop for sure to make the trigger housing then some kind of heat sheild for the electronic components they could not handle the temps in my oppinion but if they could or they could be remade stronger or more heat resistant then its possible for sure then the next thing the rate of fire would have to be somewhere in the neighboorhood of 15 bps or rps thats 900 per minute... and in the real world weather its paintball guns or real guns thats hard in semi no matter what gun its used in the AR could take it well a good one could.... lets say if you get it all together and it works perfect in other words it cycles the problem your gonna have just like on paintball weapons is trigger bounce which even in recoiless paintball marker (gun) happens so when that thing (trigger) feels that recoil its gonna go full auto instantly... thats just my 2 cents if ya think about it or go outside and blaze your marker youl see what im sayin the trigger is way to light for any weapon that is charged by powder
Link Posted: 7/12/2004 1:16:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/13/2004 7:27:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Dano523:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
If it was just an electronic mechanism firing the gun in a traditional semi-automatic manner, I'm not sure it'd be illegal



Nope, The electronic switch become the means of fire, and if the switch allows more than 1 shot per depression, then the rifle is a Machine gun.




I said "in a traditional semi-automatic manner" which is not "more than one shot per depression"



No worries!!!! Just passing on what has all ready been stated by the BATF.

The running on such a device is the means of operation. In regards to a manual crank device, the trigger is still pulled once per firing by the cam which you control by hand, but when you add a electronic motor, it not the crank/cam that you control, but the switch. Somewhere I have a copy of a BATF request letter that asked this same question, and my response to this post/question is just the same as the response given by them.

IIRQ, The request was to see if you could motor drive the crank on a twin 10-22 gat gun. The response is that this turns the gun into a Mini Type gun, since the control/fire trigger for the firearm is no longer the crank/ rifle triggers, but the switch to control the motor/crank.


Link Posted: 7/13/2004 7:45:14 AM EST
I have also looked at this and I didn't look at it for increasing the rate for fire but I looked at it for a target rifle use. There is a huge amount of room in the AR-15 lower receiver and I believe that it would be possible for someone to come up with a mechanism to do this.

Now, I don't know about a semi-auto, but I could see some type of electronic trigger system in a MG especially if you could select a rate of fire electronically. Someone above did point to the Remington Etronix and while I am not sure I would want to go into combat with something like that it does offer some interesting possibilities for future Small Arms development. Just imagine 1, 2 or 3 rd bursts as well as full auto at 100, 200, 300, 400, 600 RPM rates. The DROZD BB gun is another good example of where this technology could go in the future. Just imagine if this was an open bolt 9mm instead of a BB gun!
Link Posted: 7/13/2004 8:07:47 AM EST
This is a little off the topic since it's mechanical and not electrical.
I'm dating myself here, but in the Pre-Ban days I seem to remember a mechanical cam device with an arm like a fishing reel that you could attach to your trigger gaurd to increase your rate of fire. Worked on all Semi-Autos not just AR's made them kind of like the old hand crank gattling gun.
Link Posted: 7/13/2004 8:11:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/13/2004 8:14:52 AM EST by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By madmortigan:
This is a little off the topic since it's mechanical and not electrical.
I'm dating myself here, but in the Pre-Ban days I seem to remember a mechanical cam device with an arm like a fishing reel that you could attach to your trigger gaurd to increase your rate of fire. Worked on all Semi-Autos not just AR's made them kind of like the old hand crank gattling gun.



Not that bad... isn't that the Hellfire system? I know of one guy that had tried one back in those days with a 10/22... these would stilll be legal today!

Actually, thet is the GAT trigger, right www.sksman.com/access/GAT%20trigger%20system.html
Link Posted: 7/13/2004 8:24:06 AM EST
learn to do the bump
Link Posted: 7/14/2004 8:25:43 PM EST
Bumping can be fun and all but that is all it is. Something like this could be useful for IPSC competitions where hitting targets fast counts. This would also allow for good triggers on bullpup rifles.

The biggest problem is getting it past the ATF.
Link Posted: 7/15/2004 6:19:05 AM EST
Electronic triggers probably wouldn't get anywhere. First of all, its electronic. People have back up sights on their rifle for a reason; you can't depend on electronics as a sole aiming system in the field, and the same should be true of your trigger. Also I'm thinking ADs would run rampant. There are always idiots that put their fingers on the trigger when they aren't ready to fire (John Kerry, for one).
Link Posted: 7/15/2004 3:20:36 PM EST
A few years ago, a company at spaceguns.com was showing a target rifle which looked like a match rifle; looked like an AR with a match upper. But the trigger pushed a switch. It was not electronic ignition (i.e., Remington) but an electrically controlled trigger/hammer mechanism. So there was still lock time, but no trigger effort (I think he said 3 ounces). I did not get many details. I expect you could shoot it really fast, but it was intended for target applications.

Lee
Link Posted: 7/15/2004 4:41:02 PM EST
You could do some really cool stuff once you have a basic electronic fire control system. A zero ounce trigger could be possible by using a small beam and an optical transistor. No more worrying about pulling your shot off target with your trigger pull.
Link Posted: 7/15/2004 5:06:02 PM EST
The recoil of the gun firing would be too much for the switch to handle. It's called mechanical bounce in the paintball world. It tends to be a problem for Matrix's in particular when their operating presure is adjusted too high. I am tlaking about 20gram switches. There are more advanced antimechanical bounce software alogarithms being put out now, but still. A little soldering, 3 position switch and a crystal oscillator and full auto in the same package. It woud be impossible to tell from the outside either. That's how professionals cheat in paintball. Little hardware hacks and work arounds.
Link Posted: 7/15/2004 8:12:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dano523:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Dano523:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
If it was just an electronic mechanism firing the gun in a traditional semi-automatic manner, I'm not sure it'd be illegal



Nope, The electronic switch become the means of fire, and if the switch allows more than 1 shot per depression, then the rifle is a Machine gun.




I said "in a traditional semi-automatic manner" which is not "more than one shot per depression"



No worries!!!! Just passing on what has all ready been stated by the BATF.

The running on such a device is the means of operation. In regards to a manual crank device, the trigger is still pulled once per firing by the cam which you control by hand, but when you add a electronic motor, it not the crank/cam that you control, but the switch. Somewhere I have a copy of a BATF request letter that asked this same question, and my response to this post/question is just the same as the response given by them.

IIRQ, The request was to see if you could motor drive the crank on a twin 10-22 gat gun. The response is that this turns the gun into a Mini Type gun, since the control/fire trigger for the firearm is no longer the crank/ rifle triggers, but the switch to control the motor/crank.





The question here is different...

The question is can you use a solenoid or magnetic release instead of spring mechanics...

Not a motor that will fire continuously as long as the switch is on...

A solenoid will fire ONCE and ONLY ONCE per switch press... To do otherwise requires the modification of the FCG (by adding a circuit board)...

Same as a mechanical FCG
Link Posted: 7/16/2004 12:17:41 AM EST
Legal - yes

Wise - hell no, there's a reason mechanical triggers are held to a heavier weight and even then one can bump fire a 6+ lb trigger.
Link Posted: 7/17/2004 9:53:58 AM EST
Dave and Aimless,
I see your point that with the solenoid, the trigger is pulled only once. Hell, even using a driven cam, the trigger is pulled once. But as it was stated with electronics, going from a single trigger pull per switch depression to multiple trigger pulls per single switch depression is just the insertion of an oscillator soldered in line when referring to a solenoided firing device. In the eyes of the Batf, this type of device, like an open bolt semi gun, can too easily be converted to fully automatic fire. Remember, these are the same guys that ruled that a shoestring is a NFA device.

I guess it just boils down to someone getting a approved letter from the Batf that states the solenoid firing device is legal as a add on to the semi automatic rifles.

IIRQ, there is already platform out that use remote controls to aim and fire a rifle (solenoid), and in regards to it, the Baft ruled that this platform was not class 1 due to ease of making it an full auto firing rifle threw electronic controlling of the trigger solenoid (auto loading rifle).
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:47:01 AM EST
Yeah, I think you guys are right that having too light a trigger isn't a good idea. I got a tricked out E-Spyder with something like a 3 or 4 ounce switch, so about a 2 ounce trigger pull. I have put probibly 4000 rounds through it, and only had 3 misfires (where the gun shot when I didn't intend it to), but that is 3 more than should ever happen with a real gun. It is sweet though. I can push about 14 shots per second without even trying very hard, and that might be an asset in a CQB situation. But I have already seen one by-stander marked on accident in a paintball game because of light triggers on the markers, so I think I will avoid doing this to a rifle. Thanks for the input guys! It might be interesting for sniping though.......Because you wouldn't be walking around with your gun all the time, and could turn it on right before you wanted to shoot. Hmm....
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