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Posted: 2/1/2015 11:26:16 AM EST
I'm currently building a 12.5" sbr and I've heard claims of guys ringing steel out to 600yds with a 12.5" barrel. I'm guessing its outside of the effective range but they are still hitting the target. My question is, does anyone know the effective range for a 12.5"?
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 12:02:36 PM EST
[#1]
Define effective.
Hits are hits. Even though it won't frag at 600 yards M855 or M193 through a lung won't feel good.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 12:09:59 PM EST
[#2]
Quoted:
I'm currently building a 12.5" sbr and I've heard claims of guys ringing steel out to 600yds with a 12.5" barrel. I'm guessing its outside of the effective range but they are still hitting the target. My question is, does anyone know the effective range for a 12.5"?
View Quote


That will depend on the threshold velocity your ammo is rated to perform at (minimum velocity the bullet will expand, or in the case of m193, fragment).

For m193, that is 2,600-2,700 fps.

Stainless 12.5" barrels chrono at right around the same velocity as a 14.5" chrome lined barrel.  

The Ammo Oracle here lists m193 fired from a 14.5 chrome lined barrel to be at threshold velocity in 95-100 meters.  The stainless 12.5" should be about the same.

I never looked at the data for 12.5" CL barrels but the Ammo Oracle lists 11.5" chrome lined barrels threshold velocity distance at 40-45 meters, so the 12.5" should be further than that

For different ammo, determine threshold velocity and get distance to threshold velocity to determine effective range.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 3:40:20 PM EST
[#3]
You need to chrony that gun and see what velocity it yields.  A load that runs 3,500fps from a rifle probably won't break 3k from that barrel, but will still shoot pretty flat.  Get an optic with mil-dot or finger turret and you can hit steel well beyond 600 on a calm day.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 3:43:36 PM EST
[#4]
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 3:58:00 PM EST
[#5]
I've heard 1000 times how guys hit 1 MOA from a 10" barrel all day long. I've never seen it done personally. You wont know until you shoot it. -W

ETA: In fact, I'd give $50.00 to the guy I saw shoot a 5 round group at 1 MOA from a 10"  barrel.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 4:02:30 PM EST
[#6]
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 4:07:35 PM EST
[#7]
Where and when? Show me the target. I've never seen it. You got a utube video? I don't think so. I'll make it $100.00 you cant do that. Show me some proof. anything. 5 shots. 10" barrel 1" group at 100 yards. No way. LMAO

ETA: I'm making this a 7 day offer. After that all bets are off. I won't leave the offer open indefinitely. If someone does manage to get it according to the stated offer, it will probably cost them more than $100.00 in ammo. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's difficult. There's so many of you that can do it, and you're at such a high level of practice and marksmanship, 7 days should be plenty of time. -W
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 4:33:36 PM EST
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Where and when? Show me the target. I've never seen it. You got a utube video? I don't think so. I'll make it $100.00 you cant do that. Show me some proof. anything. 5 shots. 10" barrel 1" group at 100 yards. No way. LMAO
View Quote


If I had a 10" barrel I'd take that in a heartbeat.

Shorter barrels are inherently more accurate.  

You sir need to do a bit more research.

How about this... Tell me WHY you are willing to bet that it can't be done? What are you basing this opinion on?
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 4:35:37 PM EST
[#9]
I base it on the fact that I've heard so many people say it, but nobody can do it. LOL -W

ETA: You'll notice I said "YOU can't do that" I did not say "it can't be done" Then I opened it up to anyone. I'm not challenging the entire world to have it happen luckily 1 time. I said I've never seen it done. I'll stand by my offer for 7 days. Go for it. -W
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 4:52:41 PM EST
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I base it on the fact that I've heard so many people say it, but nobody can do it. LOL -W
View Quote


How about this?

MicroMOA barrel

Link Posted: 2/1/2015 5:13:18 PM EST
[#11]
I would sure like to see that in person. They are guaranteeing every 10.5" barrel will shoot 1 MOA ? And you believe them? LOL -W

ETA: Unless you're Annie Oakley, I don't think you can do it. My $100.00 offer stands. -W
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 5:28:02 PM EST
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I would sure like to see that in person. They are guaranteeing every 10.5" barrel will shoot 1 MOA ? And you believe them? LOL -W
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It's a mechanical process and it's pretty easy to prove or disprove.

This isn't rocket science, there are probably half a dozen manufacturers out there that could do it, Larue, Noveske, Krieger, Lothar Walther are just a few.

Buy a barrel, put rifle in mechanical rest, shoot groups.

Shorter barrels have less flex, are more rigid and have less surface area for the projectile to be fucked with.  Accuracy has nothing to do with velocity. It's about repeatable results. Less variables in play the more accurate the rifle will be.

Link Posted: 2/1/2015 5:33:30 PM EST
[#13]
I'm not talking about mounting a barrel in a vise. I'm talking about anyone with a 10" barrel that thinks they can shoot a 5 shot group 1" in diameter at 100 yards. Real life. Not controlled environment mechanical testing. I'm sure it has been done, but it's the exception, not the rule. Put up or shut up. -W

ETA: First guy to prove it gets $100.00 -W
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 5:37:25 PM EST
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Define effective.
Hits are hits. Even though it won't frag at 600 yards M855 or M193 through a lung won't feel good.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
View Quote


At 600 yards, from a 12.5" barrel, M193 is pretty much on par with .22LR at close range, in terms of velocity and energy.  Not pleasant, but that's about as much as you can say.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 5:40:42 PM EST
[#15]
I've shot sub MOA with a 10.2" Noveske SS 300 Blackout barrel and 220g subsonics sitting at a bench, and using a TR24G. Actual range was 112 yards and the 5 shot group was under 1".
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 5:44:18 PM EST
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not talking about mounting a barrel in a vise. I'm talking about anyone with a 10" barrel that thinks they can shoot a 5 shot group 1" in diameter at 100 yards. Real life. Not controlled environment mechanical testing. I'm sure it has been done, but it's the exception, not the rule. Put up or shut up. -W

ETA: First guy to prove it gets $100.00 -W
View Quote



This is a big board and I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes along and takes your money.  I know I'm tempted.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 5:47:01 PM EST
[#17]
my offer stands. -W
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 5:52:07 PM EST
[#18]
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 5:55:10 PM EST
[#19]
cowboy.
It's a very tough challenge to get 1 MOA out of a 10" barrel. The shooting you did and the targets were awesome brother. Fine shooting. -W

ETA cowboy You didn't come close to winning the $100.00 I highly recommend you put up or shut up. And I'm not out to make any enemies. You can claim to be "close" all you want. 10" barrels don't hit 1" groups at 100 yards. The recoil alone doesn't allow you to get back on target to 1Moa. (5.56MM). You didn't make it even though you claim to be close. Good for you. It's going to take an Annie Oakley to get it/ -W
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 6:09:05 PM EST
[#20]
I don't want your $100. I was just having fun, breaking in my 762-SDN-6 can and the targets progressively looked like this. Keep in mind that these were the best 3 out of ~25. I'm not what you would call a great shooter but I did luck into a few good five shot groups.




























Pretty sure this is sub-MOA:

















Here is the setup that did it:























 
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 7:14:48 PM EST
[#21]
It's not the gun, it's the shooter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwVK_FxGZk

http://www.battleswarmblog.com/?p=20960

It's exactly how snipers can hit a target in measured distances of over a mile. A .338 isn't that big when you start talking crew served weapons distances. What you need to know it how much bullet drop for the round, the load, and that barrel.

With enough training anybody can do it. The limit is how far the bullet will go before you reach the maximum elevation and distance. At that point it's all a matter of skill and practice.

It's not the gun, it's the shooter. If someone thinks it can't be done, fine - they are saying they can't do it. Ok. Speak for yourself. Others can.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 7:55:45 PM EST
[#22]
And BTW, the Army studied how far the AVERAGE soldier made aimed shots in combat and found it was rarely beyond 125m. The study goes back to WWI and most of the weapons had 20"+ barrels. EFFECTIVE range is out to 500m but that's against an target in the open - and nobody wants to be that guy.

Two way combat is radically different than square range, we quit standing up in close ranks delivering volley fire about 150 years ago. Native Americans taught us not to.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 8:13:06 PM EST
[#23]
If you use MK 262 MOD 1 and have an optic with at least 4 power you can do fine out to 600M, I have done it numerous times with my 14.5 and 10.3, so your 12 should be able as well, use the ammo designed for long range accuracy, not m193 or 855, while it should do the job its not MK 262 by any means.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 8:20:11 PM EST
[#24]
depending on the zero you can hit accurately with a maybe 2-3 inches of drop out to 200 yards with a 7.5" barrel

just watched a video on youtube last night where a guy demonstrated this.  I was surprised
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 8:49:33 PM EST
[#25]
5 shots. 10" barrel 1" group at 100 yards. No way. LMAO
View Quote


Have done it with my 12.5" BCM.  I don't save my targets, and that's not really any kind of "proof" on a bulletin board anyway, but I will tell you that if you make that bet to guys at the range who own quality 10" rifles and who know how to shoot, you'd better have a crisp Benjamin in your pocket.

The only time barrel length comes into play regarding accuracy is when you're dealing with very long ranges, as accuracy suffers when bullets transcend the sonic barrier.  As such, a longer tube gives more velocity, ergo the bullet stays supersonic at greater distances.  At 100 yards, though?  Don't make a lick of difference.  Even from a 7.5" barrel, M193 is still doing mach 2 @ 100.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 8:54:58 PM EST
[#26]
OST
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 8:59:43 PM EST
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not talking about mounting a barrel in a vise. I'm talking about anyone with a 10" barrel that thinks they can shoot a 5 shot group 1" in diameter at 100 yards. Real life. Not controlled environment mechanical testing. I'm sure it has been done, but it's the exception, not the rule. Put up or shut up. -W

ETA: First guy to prove it gets $100.00 -W
View Quote


I don't have time to play interwebs games but I used to have a 10.5" LMT bbl that I could routinely put 5 rounds into the same hole at 25 yards... with Wolf ammo, lol.

Not off a bench with sandbags either. On the ground using the mag as a monopod.

I don't think I've ever had another bbl that would do that.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 9:02:26 PM EST
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
cowboy.
It's a very tough challenge to get 1 MOA out of a 10" barrel. The shooting you did and the targets were awesome brother. Fine shooting. -W

ETA cowboy You didn't come close to winning the $100.00 I highly recommend you put up or shut up. And I'm not out to make any enemies. You can claim to be "close" all you want. 10" barrels don't hit 1" groups at 100 yards. The recoil alone doesn't allow you to get back on target to 1Moa. (5.56MM). You didn't make it even though you claim to be close. Good for you. It's going to take an Annie Oakley to get it/ -W
View Quote


You have no idea WTF you are taking about.

MSTN used to get sub MOA out of 7" Noveske bbls ROUTINELY during testing.
They posted the results all the time around here.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 9:14:17 PM EST
[#29]
Quoted:
I'm currently building a 12.5" sbr and I've heard claims of guys ringing steel out to 600yds with a 12.5" barrel. I'm guessing its outside of the effective range but they are still hitting the target. My question is, does anyone know the effective range for a 12.5"?
View Quote


Effective?

You can easily hit 18" steel out to 400-600 with a 12,5" bbl. if you use your fundamentals.

Most folks consider that "combat effective."

Some "special" guys I know have spoken of 500+ yard fire fights with MK18s in which head shots were made with 77 gr projectiles.
Link Posted: 2/1/2015 10:24:48 PM EST
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


How about this?

MicroMOA barrel

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I base it on the fact that I've heard so many people say it, but nobody can do it. LOL -W


How about this?

MicroMOA barrel




Link Posted: 2/2/2015 1:04:48 AM EST
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Where and when? Show me the target. I've never seen it. You got a utube video? I don't think so. I'll make it $100.00 you cant do that. Show me some proof. anything. 5 shots. 10" barrel 1" group at 100 yards. No way. LMAO
View Quote


I need some easy money! : with or without an optic? match grade or target loads?

Back on topic, ringing steel at 600 yards is one thing, how much power at 600 yards? I dunno.  I wouldn't want to take a round from 600 yards but effective is relative to each person.  

I can hit steel at 300 yards with a glock 20 stock iron sights with bear loads... granted the steel was a 4' gong lol

i think of 12.5 as closer to cqb, if I wanted range, I would switch to a bolt gun with heavier ammo.
Link Posted: 2/2/2015 10:49:56 AM EST
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Off topic, but I love your build. Excellent work.
Link Posted: 2/2/2015 4:17:51 PM EST
[#33]
The reason for very few 10.5" barrel 1 MOA groups is that they are typically standard chrome lined barrels in non-target builds for non-precision shooting.  There is no reason why the exact same brand and construction barrel that is sub-MOA capable in 16", 18", or 20" length would not shoot the same or better in 12.5" or 10.5" length.

"Effective range" is determined by the end user.  What effects are you looking to achieve and what is "effective" for you?  If a 50% hit rate on torso size targets with no terminal considerations is what you are after, then your rifle/ammo/shooter/shooting position combo is "effective" out to whatever distance you can maintain at least a 50% hit rate.  Or, sub in whatever criteria you want and test it.

Link Posted: 2/2/2015 4:49:22 PM EST
[#34]
12.5 is probably the ideal general purpose rifle barrel length and the military would do well to adopt it as a standard. Hitting 18" plates at 600m is possible with a good shooter and setup.

If my upper wasn't 300 miles away I would take that guys money and spend it on ammo.
Link Posted: 2/2/2015 6:27:53 PM EST
[#35]
You and 1000 other guys LOL -W
Link Posted: 2/2/2015 8:30:54 PM EST
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You and 1000 other guys LOL -W
View Quote


Maybe I'll call my buddy, see if he can shoot my upper this weekend and he can have your money.
Link Posted: 2/2/2015 9:32:17 PM EST
[#37]
Link Posted: 2/2/2015 10:24:58 PM EST
[#38]
Well, the military went from whatever over the previous 100 years to the M16 with 20" barrel, to the M4 with 14.5" barrel, and has been testing and using 10.5" barrels since the 1960's with the current version known as the CQB or MK18.

The problem is we the people can't afford and won't pay to make every soldier a upper tier expert with live fire training in shoot houses. First, 90% are in support roles, and second, we don't induct and test to select who does what the best. We just take volunteers who want to do the work they are interested in. If they are reasonably qualified we use them.

Seems to work.

For a 10.5" gun with a decent milspec barrel then 2MOA does the job, that is still a 10" group size targeted at an 18" lethal hit zon at 500m. Good enough, all we need is about 1,000 foot pounds to get some penetration at whatever speed will cause the bullet to expand. It doesn't have to fragment and the "doctrine" that it has to be going 2.300 fps only applies to steel penetrator rounds. OTM bullets - which are very legal to use In international combat - can expand down to 1,800 fps and there are new rounds coming out with sintered powdered metal bullets you can custom order to meet your specific situation. With the 10.5' barrel in 5.56 the MK262 77gr OTM is good enough.

So, given its an average milspec barrel shooting good enough ammo by a guy who gets just enough training to be good, why is it so hard to believe that he can't hit an 18" steel target at 500m? The average Basic Training graduate does that firing Qualification with a 14.5" barrel and iron sights.

No scope. Just a Joe Snuffy kid, 19 years old, and he's not given much respect for it.

Of course, if someone can't even shoot that well, it looks impossible.
Link Posted: 2/2/2015 10:43:40 PM EST
[#39]
Okay, you go get Joe Trick Shot. Let me know how he does. -W

Maybe you can take on a national advertising campaign and find someone who can do it too. -W

ETA: To answer the OP's original question, Colt's website shows the effective range for both their CQBR 10.3" barrel and the Commando 11.5" barrel at 400 meters. A 12.5" barrel is going to be close to that. Maybe a little more. -W
Link Posted: 2/2/2015 10:49:18 PM EST
[#40]
I already know. His 10.5" Noveske and 12.5" Noveske are both sub minute guns. But I need to get you a target I presume.
Link Posted: 2/3/2015 8:40:11 AM EST
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History

Thats a nice f*cking gun!  Nice shooting too!
Link Posted: 2/3/2015 9:10:59 AM EST
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I already know. His 10.5" Noveske and 12.5" Noveske are both sub minute guns. But I need to get you a target I presume.
View Quote

I want to see you sack smack this dude. But these challenges always end the same way. The challenger backs out claiming you cheated, that you used a diff gun or the range isn't as long as you claim and that unless you're there shooting in front of them them then you can't prove it.

I'll also add, that I was told at one point we were getting ~1MOA regularly with the 10.5" 516s. But, considering how much dicking around we did with acquiring production bbls I can't guarantee that still holds true for any period.
Link Posted: 2/3/2015 9:16:18 AM EST
[#43]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





I want to see you sack smack this dude. But these challenges always end the same way. The challenger backs out claiming you cheated, that you used a diff gun or the range isn't as long as you claim and that unless you're there shooting in front of them them then you can't prove it.



I'll also add, that I was told at one point we were getting ~1MOA regularly with the 10.5" 516s. But, considering how much dicking around we did with acquiring production bbls I can't guarantee that still holds true for any period.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:



Quoted:

I already know. His 10.5" Noveske and 12.5" Noveske are both sub minute guns. But I need to get you a target I presume.


I want to see you sack smack this dude. But these challenges always end the same way. The challenger backs out claiming you cheated, that you used a diff gun or the range isn't as long as you claim and that unless you're there shooting in front of them them then you can't prove it.



I'll also add, that I was told at one point we were getting ~1MOA regularly with the 10.5" 516s. But, considering how much dicking around we did with acquiring production bbls I can't guarantee that still holds true for any period.



I got awesome accuracy out of my 16" 516 that I had Marvin Pitts chop down to 10.5". I believe you and I went back and forth over IM about it.

 
Link Posted: 2/3/2015 9:52:47 AM EST
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
12.5 is probably the ideal general purpose rifle barrel length and the military would do well to adopt it as a standard. Hitting 18" plates at 600m is possible with a good shooter and setup.

If my upper wasn't 300 miles away I would take that guys money and spend it on ammo.
View Quote

This reminds me of the appleseed challenge that was popular awhile ago.  I'm going to put the alg act in my pistol lower, put a 3x9 on top and shoot the shit out of some hornady.  I just have to get over this flue first.
I plan on spending dude's money on some Johnny Walker.
Link Posted: 2/3/2015 10:20:55 AM EST
[#45]
Link Posted: 2/3/2015 10:33:28 AM EST
[#46]
Come on cowboy, you can do it! Go buy that 500.00 barrel to make $100.00 and there's no guarantee you can put 5 slugs in a dime at 100 yards with it. Don't forget another 100 or so for ammo. :::::chuckle:::: Good luck! -W

ETA: you should read what I actually posted. If you have to go get someone, you know someone that can, or have to bring in some professional shooter you've made my point. -W



Link Posted: 2/3/2015 11:00:15 AM EST
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Come on cowboy, you can do it! Go buy that 500.00 barrel to make $100.00 and there's no guarantee you can put 5 slugs in a dime at 100 yards with it. Don't forget another 100 or so for ammo. :::::chuckle:::: Good luck! -W

ETA: you should read what I actually posted. If you have to go get someone, you know someone that can, or have to bring in some professional shooter you've made my point. -W



View Quote

Jack travels a lot. He's not near his rifle, so he offered to have his buddy shoot his upper (that he already owns). Jack is a well trained shooter.

Are you really so dense? And your edit proves nothing would be good enough.
Link Posted: 2/3/2015 11:13:17 AM EST
[#48]
Link Posted: 2/3/2015 11:21:12 AM EST
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Come on cowboy, you can do it! Go buy that 500.00 barrel to make $100.00 and there's no guarantee you can put 5 slugs in a dime at 100 yards with it. Don't forget another 100 or so for ammo. :::::chuckle:::: Good luck! -W

ETA: you should read what I actually posted. If you have to go get someone, you know someone that can, or have to bring in some professional shooter you've made my point. -W



View Quote


Fly yourself out to MD and I'll do it in front of you.
Link Posted: 2/3/2015 11:22:22 AM EST
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yep.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Come on cowboy, you can do it! Go buy that 500.00 barrel to make $100.00 and there's no guarantee you can put 5 slugs in a dime at 100 yards with it. Don't forget another 100 or so for ammo. :::::chuckle:::: Good luck! -W

ETA: you should read what I actually posted. If you have to go get someone, you know someone that can, or have to bring in some professional shooter you've made my point. -W




Jack travels a lot. He's not near his rifle, so he offered to have his buddy shoot his upper (that he already owns). Jack is a well trained shooter.

Are you really so dense? And your edit proves nothing would be good enough.


Yep.


Just quit feeding him.  His original post said 1" group out of a 10" barrel.

It will go as follows: someone will shoot sub-moa out of a 10.5" barrel and it won't be good enough.

How many people actually have a 10" barrel?
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