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Posted: 10/28/2004 5:43:04 PM EDT
[#1]
No, it is not the same. It is size 4 bird shot. If it were buckshot, it would 4 BUCK on the shell.
Regardless of some of the drivel you read here, that shit will put a serious hurt on anyone shot with it at room distance. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 5:52:49 PM EDT
[#2]
However, IMO the 4 buck is the best home defense shotgun round, I prefer it to 00 buck.
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Posted: 10/28/2004 7:02:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Im pretty sure 04 buck has penetraion issues, like it wont go thru someone's sternum. At least I have read police reports to that effect.
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Posted: 10/28/2004 9:36:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Based on what O great and wise one. </Sarcasm> |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 10:21:04 PM EDT
[#5]
#4 is for pheasant and rabbit sized animals. Of course at TEOTWAWKI those could be dinner and the load might have a place in the SHTF stash.
I too want to hear the reasons some prefer #4 Buck to 0 or 00 Buck for self defense. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 10:42:33 PM EDT
[#6]
You are correct 00 is the minimum effective round based on the 12" penetration rule... |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 12:54:21 AM EDT
[#7]
A damn good friend, with a LOT of real world gunfighting in his wake, was once saddled with #4 Buck as the only authorized scattergun duty load.
Bieng the thinking individual that he is, he noticed quickly the shortcomings, and focused upon the successes from the field. Body shots center of Mass with #4 Buck involved more ugliness than base of the throat shots. Thankfully, a return to 00 Buck and tactical loads evolved after a bit. #4 shot is great for waterfowl. #4 Buck is good in a 20ga. for Deer taken under 20yds or so. Everyone knows I am on the opposite side of the whole "Grand debate". Still, 00 Buck is the only fitting shot for the 2 legged predator in my opinion. Have tracked and gutted too many 4 legged critters that were little wounded quickly. I prefer slugs on animals I respect. Those that use Buckshot and can hold their urges untill range is proper, have few problems with the 00, and horror stories about lighter loadings in their past. Birdshot is exactly as described. No offence to anyone intended. S-28 |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 4:59:40 PM EDT
[#8]
Based on commentary from the #3 website. I'm looking back now.... Plus I've shot plenty of 4 and 00 buck and honestly I can't tell the difference except... #4 seems to recoil less, pattern better, and throw more lead albeit smaller pellets. And it seemed to hit on target just as hard as 00. At 20 feet HD range I can't see that much of a significant difference in penetration. And I was leaning towards 1 buck, too. |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 5:27:23 PM EDT
[#9]
Checkout this site and let me know what you think: www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37b5daa50a0f.htm
I took a look at my ammo stash and I have several dozen boxes of this: *Remington Buckshot 12ga 3" Magnum 4 BK (41 pellets) *Remington Buckshot 12ga 3" Magnum 00 BK (15 pellets) In that order, that is my preference. I remember now, Magnum instead of standard 2 3/4. You should see the power at close range the 4BK appears to inflict...I suggest you try it. P.S. Somebody help me out with the veracity of that source. 
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Posted: 10/29/2004 5:51:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Because YOU can't see it doesn't mean it's there. It's been repeatedly shown #4 doesn't make the 12" min penetration requirement. Anything more than a straight on COM shot - with the suspects hands in the air and you risk not getting to the vital blood carrying organs. We've covered this time and time again - I'd be REALLY surprised if it wasn't covered in the thread tacked at the top of this forum on 'best performing defensive loads'. |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 6:36:45 PM EDT
[#11]
IWBA research:
1 Buck (.30 cal pellet) is the smallest buckshot load propelled at typical velocities that will penetrate a minimum of 12 inches. 00 is closer to the 14-16 inch penetration realm. The IWBA really frowns on using birdshot as a defense round. They also suggest that as soon as some manufacturer markets "tactical" (my words, not theirs) buckshot loads in size 1 Buck, everyone in the know should abandon all other shotshells and migrate toward that loading. With 12 pellets of 1Buck at around 1000-1100 fps, it would potentially cause the most wound trauma while attaining a foot of penetration. |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 6:42:05 PM EDT
[#12]
So is there a difference between 4BK in 2 3/4" and 3" Magnum or not? |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 6:44:52 PM EDT
[#13]
If the 3" magnum load is just more pellets (probably at a lower velocity than the standard load), you'll probably get:
--noticeably more recoil --more lead on target --fewer shells in your gun --rounder pellets (lower velocity) which might cause better patterning and better tissue penetration |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 7:59:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Even though the 00 buck is VERY street proven....go ahead and go with whatever you THINK will work better. We can talk theory all day long, but with data showing that the 00 buck is a very effective killer, I don't see any good reason to look elsewhere.
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Posted: 10/29/2004 8:10:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Well, that's good and all. And to a point, I won't disagree...I have low-recoil 00 Buck in my pump gun right now and don't feel at all undergunned.
However, why *wouldn't* we look elsewhere if the promise of "better-performing" is possibly out there? The technology and capability to produce arguably better shotgun ammo than what is currently available was achieved 10 years ago...just nobody has done it yet. |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 8:52:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Testing does seem to point to the fact that the ideal loading (for combat vs humans, not necessarily for other tasks) would be a reduced-recoil (i.e., "tactical") #1 Buck, using buffered, hardened shot. Only a single #1 Buck load comes close, but it is a full-power load that tends to deform the pellets. And, it's VERY hard to find at all.
The advantage of the #00 loadings is that they are inexpensive and widely available with the right features (reduced recoil, buffered shot). #4 Buck might be good enough in a country like Vietnam or Somalia, where the average person is under 120 pounds, but it won't cut it in the US or European countries. -Troy |
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Posted: 10/30/2004 9:29:44 AM EDT
[#17]
Last night I replaced my 4BK with 00BK in my HD shotgun. 3" Magnum.
Thanks guys. |
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Posted: 10/30/2004 11:38:24 AM EDT
[#18]
#4 is about right for Rabbits and Pheasent. I use #6 sometimes but I find some pellets stopped just embedded underneath the skin. #4 kills alittle cleaner than #6. GET THE PICTURE?
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Posted: 10/30/2004 1:14:48 PM EDT
[#19]
I think the OP has the answers he's looking for. And I learned something too. |
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Posted: 10/30/2004 1:30:31 PM EDT
[#20]
The reason #4 Buck is a great home defense load is exactly its lower penetration properties. That way you can shoot with reasonable saftey within your home and not worry about killing your child 30 feet away in another room through a wall. That's why I use #4 Buck in my Winchester Defender. I can assure you anyone hit in the upper torso/ head area multiple times with #4 Buck is going to have a very very bad day.
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Posted: 10/30/2004 4:40:04 PM EDT
[#21]
This is EXACTLY why the shotgun is not the home defence tool that people make it out to be. |
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Posted: 10/30/2004 6:20:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Where did you get this idea? A child is well under the size of a human you can easily get through and through shots on children after #4 buck passes through walls.
Are you sure you're going to get a 2nd shot? Let along a 3rd or 4th? BTW Brouhaha asked me to post this - Penetrarion of Lead Shot |
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Posted: 10/30/2004 8:33:45 PM EDT
[#23]
Looks to me that a lot of speed is not needed for adequate penetration with stuff over 0 buck.
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Posted: 10/30/2004 8:46:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Exactly, which is why low-recoil "tactical" loads have become so popular.
You obviously also have to take into consideration that pellets will deform and that lessens their penetration through tissue, but not by an excessive amount. |
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Posted: 10/30/2004 9:07:43 PM EDT
[#25]
As for the concerns of secondary targets shielded by 2 layers of wall board...
#4, 00, and #1 Buck all are more of a danger than the humble .223 with defensive loads. Including U.S. Ball ammo. Judge Shotgun loads on the penetration and deformation propertys of the individual pellet not the combined payload. 00 Buck dominates the field because it fits the bill for the larger hunting market. Good #1 loads would be nice, but they are not out there. The improved #1 loads would still present the same issues we all face with 00 buck loads however. Draw the line in the sand so it precludes having the loved ones in the angle of fire. It's a tactics problem. S-28 S-28 |
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