I've been noticing lots and lots of gun owners selling their pre ban AR15 lowers. My opinion is that they see the light and want to make their money while they still can, which is a good idea and I would be doing. I'm really starting to believe that the AWB of 1994 will dissappear in 9 months. If this happens which all of us AR15ers hope then these cheaper E.A and P.W.A. lowers that are advertised for $800.00 will be worth $100.00 on a good day. You can get stripped forged RRA lowers for under $90.00 which are top notch quality or Bushmaster, the list goes on.
          I was seriously thinking about shelling out hard earned cash to buy a pre ban lower but in the end I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Some of us may regret it if the AWB stays but I honestly think that President Bush has lots more gun savvy and common sense than Clit-on, I mean Clinton.
If I thought the AWB was here to stay, I would hold on to them and turn a larger profit after the AWB is permanent. My 2 cents worth and food for thought.


                      BILLYXM15





THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT KINDS OF LIARS IN THIS WORLD. 1. THE ONES THAT DON'T ADMIT TO BUMP FIRING AND 2. THOSE WHO SAY THEY'RE TRYING TO QUIT.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bush say he would sign it if it hits his desk.

Jerad

Simple economics supports your opinion, and I so do I.  Buying a "marked down" pre-ban lower right now would still be a waste of money because in only 9 months we will know just how much more valuable a pre-ban is than a post-ban - [b]NOT ONE BIT[/b].  

Bush did say that, but it's gotta hit his desk first.

Meanwhile, you have Democrats scrambling for all of the votes they can get to try to regain control of the House and Senate.

They know that the 1994 Ban got Democrats kicked out of Congress on their butts. They need as many votes as they can get.

Think about it. The AWB is set to expire at a VERY VERY critical time. September 15th is less than two months away from the November elections.

A renewed AWB in September will buy them a spot in the unemployment line in November.

And Bush will probably rethink his position on signing a renewal if he is not leading enough in the polls before the election.

Yes. This will be the longest wait of my life.

Awesome! It's going to Expire(maybe on my freaking birthday! WOOHOO!

Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but I'm not seeing any more prebans for sale now than I did a year ago.

aimsurplus just put a whole bunch of colt A1's up for sale, not too expensive either.

A lot of things can happen in 9 months so lets not jump the gun so to speak. Personally I can't wait to see it go but I'm still holding to my SP-1 also.

Don't forget that a few of us don't have the luxury of the ban expiring no matter what the outcome is.  In Connecticut, if I'm not mistaken, they passed a permanent AWB so the sunset means nothing to us.



So all these pre-bans up for sale will still have a lot of value to us :)

- BUCC_Guy

PS.  If anyone from CT wants to fill me in on the details of the ban, throw me an IM.

My opinion of all this, is that if your going to buy a pre-ban then this is the time. Even if the antis dont push the AWB, they will have something else coming our way, which the feel-good compromising Repub will be glad to sign.
They are all antis in my book, but the Repubs are the lessor of the two evils.

You could always move to the United States Of America and move out of the PRCT

There is a flaw in your thinking. The BATFE considers a pre-ban lower no longer pre-ban if it is transfered without the upper. So buying any "pre-ban" lower for anything more than what you could get a bushie or RRA lower for is stupid as shit. Now getting a pre-ban complete gun for under 1k now that is a good deal. I got my pre-ban for about the same price that I paid for my post ban. If you shop smart you don't pay inflated prices in the first place.

I think Bush said he'll sign it because it makes him look good and he knows there's no chance it will hit his desk.  Remember, it barely passed last time even with the liberal majority.

As for me, I already have 3 prebans and will not buy any more.  I'm going to wait and see.  I have enough spare parts and thinking of buying stripped post ban lowers.  I just hope they don't come up with some stupid clause stating anything made between 1994 and 2004 need to comform to the law at the time the gun was made.

Here's the chance we all take.  If it is renewed, expect preban prices to sky rocket.  If it sunsets, all of us who paid high dollar for prebans are S.O.L.

I also hope that the value of pre-bans drop BUT I hope they drop so I can get new toys that I can't get now.  I want an AK underfolder, FNFal Para, CAR-10, and then there is always cool little toys like the M11/9 and M10, UZI with folding stocks, Tec 9 pistols, and much much more....

Just the same, I still have a pre-ban Colt AR-15 and I have no desire to sell.  If at the 20th hour a new law is created or the old law is ammended to remove the sunset the Pre-Bans we have now could be the only rifles like these that we will ever own.

Personally, I want the insurance but I am also buying the parts and receivers I need to fill out some of my collection just as soon as the ban dies with the hope that this is what happens.  Right now, I have a good feeling that it will die but all it takes is one F-Up by somebody that goes on a shooting spree and the liberals will demand an extension or new law and god knows we can't punish the poor people that do the crimes as it is easier to punish those of us who don't do the crimes!

True, CT's laws stink, but, as long as it's not a Colt, pre-bans ARE LEGAL in CT......if anyone needs more info, I'd be glad to help.

CT

I'm still new here, so forgive the ignorance.

Someone said in a post I just read that a pre-ban lower sold w/o an upper is no longer considered pre-ban.

This seems counterintuitive at first, then I remembered who enforces the law, so I guess it doesen't have to make sense.....but is it true?

I've been considering buying a pre-ban LOWER only if I found a deal on one..just in case. But I honestly can't afford the whole gun, and just between us, I don't need a bayo lug and flash hider all that bad.

This is not true.  If the preban was [i]ever[/i] assembled into a complete rifle before the 1994 ban, then it is a preban [i]for life[/i].  The problem arises with lowers that were manufactured before the 1994 ban but not made into complete rifles before the date of the AWB.

Simply splitting the upper and lower to sell the lower [i]does not[/i]  negate the preban status of a lower if it was fully configured as a rifle before the initiation of the AWB in 1994.

You always see a ot of pre-bans being sold around the holidays.


As for me, I was just able to pick up a complete Eagle Arms pre-ban for 795.00 at a shop here, with three 30rd mags(I know thats not a lot, but even though their preban guns are cheep, their preban mags arn't. 30 bucks for used USGI mags, can you believe that.)Anyway, I'm very satisfied and regardless, I'm happy.

But, I will be buying some stripped posty lowers "just in case"



Ok, sorry for the hijack.

Careful here!  The BATFE has expressed the [red]OPPINION[/red] that a lower sold as just a lower does not meet the definition of the crime bill and it can not be reassembled as a pre-ban.  Personally, I think they would have one hell of a legal fight on their hands if you wanted to fight it in court as the law clearly defines a pre-ban as having specific features on a specific date.  NOWHERE does it say it has to keep those features!

Just the same, the BATFE has said that you can't do it so if you are considering buying a pre-ban lower you may want to send the seller a cheap upper or take an upper with you to the FFL that will be transfering it to you so that you are receiving a Pre-Ban rifle with all the evil features....

Another stupid oppnion but an oppinion that is in writing and it would cost you more in court fees to fight it then to just play their stupid game!

It is like Vegas you take your losses and be happy ,I am I spent $2100 on my Colt I dont care anymore I hope it does expire, so I can buy more and cheaper ones. It is like spending all this money on these new TVs or computer, year later it is not worth half you spend on it. That is my 2 cents. [stick]

I have a couple prebans that will be worth no more than a postban in 9 months, unless it is stamped AR15 on the receiver, I think these will still bring a little more than the current receivers will bring due to the fact that you will never see another AR15 stamped lower unless it is an LEO lower, which would also now be considered legal and become very desirable due to the markings on it. I have a postban lower just waiting for the day it expires. Then I will buy a couple more at a reasonable price. I can't wait, not to mention the hicap mags will be reasonably priced again.[banana]

I sold all my prebans and 75% of my hicap mag supply. I'm happy with my $700 Bushmasters.

There is simply no precedent in the history of governments to suggest that the AWB will not be extended and enhanced. It will be great if it sunsets, but I'm still buying hi-cap and pre-ban stuff. If it does go down, you can all have a laugh at my expense. Look for incidents involving AWs next summer to really put the heat on Congress.

Yeah, my wife is convinced that DNC operatives are out there right now actively recruiting unpopular highshoolers, overworked postal employees, and just-laid-off office woorkers for the next HCI death squads...  [i](sometimes I run my fingers through her beautiful, long blonde hair looking for tinfoil residue...)[/i]

Yup, it will sunset. Anyone wanting to sell hicap USGI mags or Colt Government Carbines before they are worthless please IM me. [:D]
--RR

Well preban values will definitely drop if the Federal ban sunsets as scheduled in 2004; but I bet they still remain slightly higher than postbans.

There are several state bans out there that mimic the federal ban closely. Until those states decide to "close the assault weapon loophole" or do away withthe nonsense entirely, the end of the federal ban will mean that a receiver in Texas that is just an old, used Bushy receiver will still be a valuable, extra evil pre-ban receiver in some other less free state.

I say plan for the worse, hope for the best. As soon as I can rebound from X-Xmas spending, I am going to purchase either a Colt or BM preban. Call me what you will, but I am not completely convinced that this dumb ass NFA '34 through '86 then '94 repeat legislation is over by a long shot. This shit is only going to get worse before it gets any better, and I would rather loss a view bucks, than loss a lifetime of freedom any day of the week. Just my two cents.
John

personally i don't care if my pre-ban is worth one dollar or a billion...  i didn't buy it as an investment i bought it because i wanted an ar15...

NY State has a AWB that does not expire.  It's an exact copy of the Fed's AWB.  So I will buy when it's a buyers market.

I have an OA-93... weights like a brick, has a short barrel, has flash suppressor, takes evil drum or C-mags, will pierce through armor, has red dot optics (so it's an armor piercing sniper assault pistol!!!!!), ITS BLACK, look evil so it must more dangerous than other similar guns... hence I think it won't be allowable again... I think I'll hold on to it versus ca$$$$$hing in now.

Precisely. Back in 1991 I paid $1300 for a pair of NIB Colts. Twelve years later each rifle has well over 11k rounds through it and I'm still completely satisfied with their reliability. I have no intentions of selling them at any price.

I would bet it safe to assume that most pre-bans around now will drop in price [b]IF[/b] the ban expires in September 2004.  I say this because, assuming the pre-ban is not rare (AR15 on reciever) or NIB, it will be no different than any new post-September 2004 rifle.  I don't know about you guys but why would I want a 10 year old used gun when I could get its equivalent (assuming ban sunsets) for the same price of a post-ban nowadays?

The only hiccup that I can see is in the pricing of AR15 and AK variants after the ban sunsets.  Manufacturers are aware of the increase in demand that may arise from this sunset of the ban and hence may charge slightly higher prices.  But it wont go too high because of other companies in the same market as we all know.  

But like any other suddenly-opened market, there will probably be a rush to get guns with all the "evil" features within 2 - 3 months after the ban sunsets.  So I would assume that Bushmaster, Colt, and others are (or should be) getting ready for increased production of those types of rifles for this fall.

But this brings me to a question I have.  If there is a window between the old ban sunsetting and a new one taking effect, will all guns with the "evil" features manufactured in that time frame be considered "pre-ban" in terms of the newer ban?  I know this sounds confusing but I think that it is important to all of us who want the ban to sunset.

The BATF seems to think otherwise:

[b]Dear Mr. XXXXX:

This refers to your letter of March 19, 2001, in which you ask about the status of certain semiautomatic assault weapons which have been altered to another configuration.

As defined in section 921(a)(30), of Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C:), the term "semiautomatic assaultic weapon" includes certain named weapons and certain semiautomatic rifles, pistols, and shotguns that have a combination of enumerated features. Title 18 U.S.C. section 922(v)(1) prohibits manufacture, transfer, and possession of semiautomatic assault weapons; however, section 922(v)(2) provides that any semiautomatic assault weapon that was lawfully possessed under Federal law on September 13, 1994, is excluded from the prohibition.

A frame or receiver of a semiautomatic assault weapon, meets the definition of a "firearm" in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(3); [red]however, a firearm frame or receiver alone, without the additional qualifying features, does not meet the definition of a "semiautomatic assault weapon"[/red] in section 921(a)(30). Therefore, a firearm frame or receiver does not meet the exemption in section 922(v)(2).

We have also determined that a semiautomatic assault weapon in knockdown (unassembled) condition consisting of a receiver and all parts needed to assemble a complete semiautomatic assault weapon are subject to regulation if the parts are segregated or packaged together and held by a person as the parts for the assembly of a particular firearm.

You describe an AR15 type rifle that met the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon and was lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994. At some subsequent time the rifle was temporarily reassembled in a configuration such that it no longer had the qualifying features of a semiautomatic assault weapon. You asked if the original components could then be lawfully reinstalled on the rifle.

Provided that the original components were held by the owner and reinstalled on the rifle, it is our opinion that the rifle would still qualify as an exempted semiautomatic assault weapon even though it had been temporarily assembled in a different configuration. We note, that mere disassembly of a semiautomatic weapon by an owner would not remove the firearm from the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon nor would the reassembly constitute manufacture of a prohibited semiautomatic
assault weapon.

[red]Your second question concerns a semiautomatic assault weapon that also meets the exemption in section 922(v)(2). However, this firearm was disassembled and the receiver, without other components, was sold. Since the receiver is no longer possessed with all parts necessary to assemble a complete semiautomatic assault weapon, it no longer meets the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon.[/red] The receiver does not meet the exemption in section 922(v)(2) and assembly of this firearm in the configuration of a semiautomatic assault weapon would be prohibited under section 922(v)(1).

If you are interested in determining the status of a particular receiver or semiautomatic assault weapon, you should contact the manufacturer or importer and ask about the date that it was manufactured and the configuration at the time of sale. It may also be necessary to contact subsequent dealers and owners who possessed the firearm.

We regret the delay in responding to your inquiry. If you have further questions concerning this matter, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,
Curtis H.A. Bartlett[/b]

I got all the prebans I want, it's the hi-cap mags I hope bust out and drop back down to reasonable prices.

M4Madness, your confusing the issue. The ATF was specifically asked about RECIEVERS, not a complete lower assy. Those are two different things. If the buyer has all the pre-ban parts to put on a purchased pre-ban lower then he is within the law.

Agreed.

Although I've been having GREAT luck lately finding them on eBay. Last month I purchased five Colt 20 rounders for $51.00 shipped, a few days ago I purchased five [b]new[/b] Colt 20 rounders for $57.99 shipped, and today I purchased five almost new Colt 30 rounders for $59.00 shipped.

I haven't seen deals like this in years. I've been watching the new listings and snapping them up before lots of people see them.

I have all the full-cap mags I need for now and then some.  

After putting some thought to it I decided to trade off my pre-ban lower. I traded for other AR accessories that I felt my money was better spent on.
I think the AWB will expire, but if it doesn’t I’ll keep a threaded barrel around for when the SHTF.[peep]

Nope, I think you need to look at the letter again!  The letter is about just a lower or receiver!  If you only have a lower, thenyou no longer have a semi-auto and being a semi-auto with a detachable magazine is key to being a SAW.

I don't agree with the "oppinion" but the oppinion is available and it affects a receiver, lower, or even a complete gun that doesn't have the total # or evil parts to be a pre-ban....

Like I asid earlier, I think you would win the case in court but your legal fees would be higher then the value of the lower...  I would do as I posted before and try to transfer the rifle complete even though it is a stupid requirement!

So, if I go to buy a pre-ban lower, to play within the atf rules (or their interpretation), I need to 1) verify that the current owner bought it as a complete weapon, and 2) carry a pre-ban lower, and ask him to assemble it as a gun before we trade?

Even if the lower had been through a dealer as an incomplete weapon, how would they (ATF) prove it had been 'de-grandfathered'?

About the only way is if they REALLY wanted to create a nightmair for themselves and look at the 4473s that transfered the weapon.  If along the line they found one that indicated the barrel length as "NA" this would be only proof they would have...

It would be a huge hastle and then I think a judge may well toss out the case...  

Still, somebody put it in writing...

There are some really good deals out there right now on USGI mags.  I've been buying them for around $11 each lately!  I picked up about 30 in the past month and and only spent about $350 for them.  

CJan_NH - You can take all the Colt mags, just save me the other USGI ones...deal? [;)]

Ebay has had tons of 20rd and 30rd mags going for cheap lately. I just picked up 4 near new condition Simmonds 20rd mags with carrier for $40 shipped. Guess youll be bidding against me M4.

Deal [:D]

Five of my Colt 20 rounders were delivered today. They are brand freaking new!!

That's cool, there's enough to go around.  I haven't bought any off ebay.  I buy all mine from the EE and board members.  However, since you mentioned it...


[;)]

From the letter:

[i]Since the receiver is no longer possessed with all parts necessary to assemble a [red][b]complete[/b][/red] semiautomatic assault weapon, it no longer meets the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon.[/i]

By "complete", the BATF means an entire weapon ready to fire, not just a lower with pistol grip and telestock.

Who cares about Preban vs Postban.  I have a Colt 16" HBAR shorty pre and an evil bayonet. and a Colt 20" Match Target Postban.

I am not going to sell either and wouldn't buy another if it costs $100 to buy a pre lower, why would I want another?  You can't make it full auto anyway!! {certain rules may apply}

I would buy more mags 'cause the price MAY go down or they may remain the same.

I will never get close enough to someone to use my bayonet, I will just use my FN .308SPR 28" and poke ya @ 600yds. Simple.. more that $.02

Anybody agree?

I posted something similar to this a few months back with no positive response from fellow board members. I still don't believe the price on pre-bans are justified. It's the American way " get what you can while you can"

Has anyone thought of purchasing a pre-ban upper from say Bushmaster, in anticipation of the awb sunsetting?  When it does then you won't have to wait in line as everyone else tries to buy uppers or complete rifles with all the evil features.  You just slap the upper on an existing lower or buy a new lower, which would probably be easier to get than a full rifle.

No comment [:)]