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Posted: 7/1/2005 8:28:37 PM EDT
I finally got my camera in the same bag as an EOTech at the range. The results are the following pics. The full size IPSC steel plate is at 100 yards. The view shows both magnified and un magnified views.
One important note. The reticle brightness is turned WAY up on these pics because it was so bright outside that I could not see it in the camera at a normal level. The human eye did not need the reticle so bright.   Magnified image  non-magnified image  Aimpoint M2 w/ 4moa dot for comparison.  ETA: Here is a pic of the reticle through the 3x in the dark. This is how the reticle acctually looks all the time through the 3x. I just had to take the picture in the dark to fake out the camera and leave the brightness level normal. 
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Posted: 7/1/2005 9:01:20 PM EDT
[#1]
I really need to save my money for one of those.
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Posted: 7/1/2005 9:04:58 PM EDT
[#2]
those pics need to be posted in the reticle thread!
just notice how the 3x intensifies the grainy eothing reticle. thanks for the pics |
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Posted: 7/1/2005 9:12:20 PM EDT
[#3]
The reticle only looks that blurry because the brightness is turned up so high. Keep an eye on this thread. I will post a pic of the reticle at night through the magnifier. It does not look pixelated at all.
We are ready when you are... 
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Posted: 7/1/2005 11:56:00 PM EDT
[#4]
That really shows why you need the 2 moa Aimpoint. The 4 moa is HUGE.
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Posted: 7/2/2005 1:19:04 AM EDT
[#5]
i actually think its perfect.  being that the aimpoint is a cqb optic design for getting off quick shots, with the 3x it would be easier to pick up and acquire a target imho. |
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Posted: 7/2/2005 7:55:57 AM EDT
[#6]
How much does the 3X unit and it's mount weigh (by themselves)?
Paladin |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 1:31:32 AM EDT
[#7]
Thats the same set up i was thinking about, it looks great, Is there any problems with ejected cases hitting the 3x when it is flipped up out of the way, and does it cowittnes perfectly with eotech. And for the big ? how much does the 3X and flip mount cost?
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Posted: 7/3/2005 5:25:27 AM EDT
[#8]
The veiw through the magnifier and EoTech is much clearer than the one through the magnifier and Aimpoint. The Aimpoint has a real blue hue to it. I suppose thats because you are looking through 4 different lenses?
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Posted: 7/3/2005 5:30:05 AM EDT
[#9]
Nice. I still haven't seen one range report using one of these, nor one durability report. Will this be it? Besides, I still don't get the concept, but I'm a slow b@st@rd, anyway.
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Posted: 7/3/2005 5:38:59 AM EDT
[#10]
OK, I have an EOTech already. What else do I need to purchase to complete the set up as pictured above?
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Posted: 7/3/2005 5:47:32 AM EDT
[#11]
from the looks of it just the samson/arms flip mount and the 3x |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 5:48:04 AM EDT
[#12]
i have never really noticed the blue tint till these pics.
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Posted: 7/3/2005 5:49:16 AM EDT
[#13]
this is what im shooting for, would like to see what its worth. |
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Posted: 7/5/2005 12:59:48 PM EDT
[#14]
I agree. I like the 4 MOA dot when using an Aimpoint. It is first and foremost a CQB optic. If I need precision accuracy at greater distances, I will use a dedicated scope. |
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Posted: 7/5/2005 1:01:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Cases will hit the 3x when flipped, but mine has about 500 hits and it looks brand new. They don't hit with ebough force to even leave a mark. It does co-witness perfectly when the EOtech is mounted directly to a flat top. It will NOT work with any non-milspec hight mount like a LaRue or RRA. As for a price, email me at [email protected] because it is too low to print here. 
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Posted: 7/5/2005 1:33:02 PM EDT
[#16]
My first tests new-arguy's first test As for durability, what can go wrong? Anything that can smash your 3x will smash your optic. You can't loose zero on the 3x and it is rubber coated. The quick and dirty info on the concept: Aimpoint was asked to produce a magnifed optic that worked as well as an ACOG, but did not sacrifice the CQB superiority of the M2. Aimpoint's 2x sucks, so they developed the 3x. Samson stepped it up a notch by making the system work for patrol and combat operations by not having to remove the optic and put it your pocket. Magnified out on the street and flipped over when kicking in doors. With more and more military orders rolling in, I am guessing these might issued gear soon. |
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Posted: 7/5/2005 1:36:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Ok, conceptually that makes sense. Having never really kicked in a door with carbine in hand, I'd opt to remove the 3X, rather than have it hanging out there just begging for something to grab it, but that's just my nondoor kicking, couch sitting, geer queer take on that.
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Posted: 7/5/2005 1:55:44 PM EDT
[#18]
I will have to agree, the Eotech does look to have far better clarity in these photos. TalonArms_R; that is a very nice setup. |
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Posted: 7/5/2005 1:58:01 PM EDT
[#19]
If you let somebody get close enough to grab your optic, they are not going for your optic.  You have to keep your muzzel toward your enemy, or suspected enemy. Look at it this way. You are on patrol and somebody takes a shot at you from a house. You engage the window with the magnified optic hoping to catch a glimpse of the asshat taking shots at you. You see the guy pulled back from the window and you take your shot and now you have to go in. Instead of taking off the optic and putting it in your pocket, or worse, dropping it, kicking it and pissing off your patrol leader; you just hit the lever, flip the optic and go through the door. If you KNOW you are going house to house, then remove the whole thing with the ARMS throw lever and put it away. The Quick Flip is specificly designed to get the magnifed optic clear of your sight picture NOW. Like the EOTech add says "Speed saves lives." Besides, the 3x flipped does not stick out any further than a light mounted on an offset. |
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Posted: 7/5/2005 2:23:13 PM EDT
[#20]
I meant something, not someone. You say it flips over for CQB, that likely means in and out of many places, doors, buildings, etc.. Having just taken part of Pat Rogers carbine operators class, I know of many times where the muzzle is pointed in places other than at the enemy - low ready and indoor ready are two that come to mind. Busting through a door in a stack, something I have never done but seen many times, I'd rather not have a device of that size hanging off the side of my carbine. But, then again, it's no bigger than a SF light so maybe I'm overthinking it, but here's something that makes sense to me - If it's not mission critical, take it off. Mr. Murphy will find it if you don't. |
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Posted: 7/5/2005 3:54:02 PM EDT
[#21]
I have you loud and clear now. When you said "grab" I assumed by something with a hand. BTW, You have the concept down. If you were making entry stacked, you would remove it completely from the carbine if time allowed. That is what is so cool about the QF. If you were going house to house in Iraq with a 3x on a twist mount, you would use the optic like an ACOG or remove it completely. With the QF, you can still use BAC like an ACOG, or flip it, or remove it. It's all about the O (options  )And just like you said, if you don't need it, remove it. Trust me. With the quanity of 3x and QFs that are starting to see use overseas, you are going to see more and more of these showing up in carbine classes everywhere. Hopefully you will get a chance to shoot with one. It's kind of like an ACOG that is not worth the money until you shoot with one... 
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Posted: 7/5/2005 4:07:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Having been through part of a carbine class, I'd see no use for the 3X. Other people's MMV. Thanks for all the info. |
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Posted: 7/6/2005 8:13:49 AM EDT
[#23]
Fair enough. But like I said, you would really have to shoot with one to understand. (ETA: This is not directed at you mongo, just a general statement ) Aimpoints and EOTechs are great by themselves. So are ACOGs. Some people like magnification, some people don't. Hell, as many of you know, some people don't advocate the use of ANY sighting system other than iron sights on a fighting weapon. It works great for me because my eyesight is not that great at distances. I like ACOGs, but I like the 3x better. Bottom line, if I am going to hit exactly what I want past 100 yards, I have to have magnification. Whether I get it from a scope, ACOG or 3x does not matter. Any magnified optic will increase accuracy and speed at distances. Specificly in a combat situation. Unlike training on a range, targets move, hide behind cover and shoot back. That is why the Marines went with an ACOG. Magnified optics can be a great force multiplier when used properly by trained personel. This system is just another option.  |
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Posted: 7/6/2005 8:49:37 AM EDT
[#24]
Nice write up....just hope Grant doent pop in here or you'll have a hard time convincing him that LaRue is not Mil Spec
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Posted: 7/6/2005 9:14:57 AM EDT
[#25]
IIRC the blue is from the tinting used to reflect the red dot off the lens and back to you. That coating results in a slight blue tint. |
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Posted: 7/6/2005 9:35:31 AM EDT
[#26]
Depends on what you're doing. For most of my carbine classes I'd agree with you. When most of your shooting is up close and personal there is no need for magnification. Also if you're in confined spaces (like a building) magnification is just a hinderance. However if you plan on being outsied (say perimeter duty as an LEO - or just bugging out from your office to home per the FIRE simulator) then magnification really has it's uses. Magnification allows you to see what that man is carrying is it a rifle or a tool? (is he a legitimate target or not?). It also allows you to see into area where you un-aided eye cannot - like darkened windows or behind bushes. |
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Posted: 7/6/2005 1:08:19 PM EDT
[#27]
This is the answer. Its why all reflected dots have blue glass. Dr Optic, Kobra, Aimpoint, Reflex, OKO, etc all have it to varying degrees. |
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Posted: 7/6/2005 2:55:17 PM EDT
[#28]
Having kicked in doors with an acog I can tell you that if you can shoot an acog cqb then there is no reason to take the\ 3x off. That is if you go from building to building like the thing was designed for. Anyone understanding the BAC will know that if the 3x causes the aimpoint or eotech to work the same way your brain will focus on the target while moving the weapon quickly and not the magnification. This does take a little getting used to and really would only hinder you if you dont have practice (or BAC type concept doesnt work for you) and you need to take really precise shots. For the most part with CQB you are mostly point shooting since using really well aimed shots could get you killed. Again this is where practive comes in.
The flipside would be running out of the building you have already cleared to go to the next one and when you go to stack on the other door someone down the street across another phase line or something pops up and you cant tell if he or she has a camera or a RPG. That could go REAL BAD if you cap CNN. |
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Posted: 7/6/2005 4:08:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Why doesn't it work with a LaRue, just an interface issue or a lack of cowitness issue? The LaRue raises the heigth of the EoTech and the magnifier to the same height so it's still all on the same plane, isn't it? Is there not enough spacing between the two LaRue mounting pads to accomodate the magnifier while maintaining control access, or does the Samson mount use more than two slots? If control access is the issue, couldn't you just flip the magnifier over to the side to gain access? If loss cowitness capability is the issue, it doesn't look like a BUIS would work if mounted just on the flattop from your picture above. |
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Posted: 7/6/2005 4:18:37 PM EDT
[#30]
Understood. Out to 100yds and maybe a little beyond, I'm perfectly comfortable with an Aimpoint/EOTech and my eyes for target ID. Very few perimiters will extend past that and if they are that far or farther, there will be a shooter there with real glass to take care of the issue. If I wanted BAC, I'd go ACOG with an Aimpoint in the ruck/range bag/trunk of the car. That setup looks heavy and busy. Can you see clearly into dark places with a lit reticle in the way? Seems that would hinder your "night vision", at least a little bit. Just posing the other side, as professional couch commandos see it, keeping the topic lively and active. You guys must live in some deep, dark, nasty holes to come up with all these scenarios. I'm comfortable and happy living 30 miles from East Detroit and Dearborn.
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Posted: 7/6/2005 7:33:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Here is my range report.
100 yard targets with the Aimpoint M3 sighted in for 100 yards using the 3X Magnifier.  Using this weapon, the bipod, and 75 grain TAP.  I was amazed at how fast you could place your shots into the 2 MOA dot, firing pretty quickly I expected some real fliers, but didn't get any. |
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Posted: 7/7/2005 7:28:14 AM EDT
[#32]
Yes the magnification helps even with the lit reticule (the night course proved that to me). Bushes were what really suprised me. During the simulator I had stopped behind some cover and was scanning the area. You could see that there was a 'potential target' hidden behind a bush at 100y. With my bare (20/15) vision I could not make it out from where i was.
Well a scenario of 'your walking down a nice safe suburban street with a rifle' you'd be expecting the cops to come arrest you . What good is a 'jungle walk' without targets?But the Scenario FIRE uses I though was somewhat realistic for a city dweller. You're just trying to get from point A to point B during an urban riot (plenty of those over the last 15 years) and there are a variety of 'test situations' along the way - not all of which require shooting. |
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Posted: 7/7/2005 7:29:55 AM EDT
[#33]
Cool. Good info on the illum at night. |
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Posted: 7/7/2005 9:25:26 AM EDT
[#34]
The LaRue EOTech mount will work with a 3x magnifier only if you use a LaRue mount for it. You can not use a Quick Flip with an EOTech or Aimpoint in a LaRue mount because it will be too high to line up. I don't think the QF will fit on the LaRue EOTech mount. Even if it did fit, I don't think you would not be able to operate the buttons on the EOTech. It is an interface issue. The co-witness thing is just a design difference. A BUIS will work with the QF and magnifier better than any other magnifed optic system. If you have a low profile BUIS folded under any other scope or ACOG, you have to remove it to get the BUIS to deploy. If you take a hit through the magnifier on a QF, you can just flip it out of the way and flip your BUIS up. No need to waste time removing anything. |
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Posted: 7/7/2005 9:49:22 AM EDT
[#35]
What I don't understand is, if everything lines up alright when mounted on a single plane flat top, why wouldn't everything still line up when mounted on a raised platform Eotech mount, as long as everything still stays on a single plane?
Why is that? Is it a fore and aft thing or does the QF mount require more slots than the back pad of the EoTech mount provides (which I think is 2)?
I could envision that with the magnifier in the up and locked position, but it looks like you could flip it over to the side, adjust the Eotech brightness without anything in your way, and then lock it back up. I can see though that when locked in that position, control access is essentailly non-existant (or at least very tight -- forget about gloves).
That does sound like a great feature. |
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Posted: 7/7/2005 11:07:13 AM EDT
[#36]
If the back end of the LaRue EOTech mount is removable, than it could work. The QF takes at least three and maybe four slots. I don't have one in front of me right now. I will check on it later.
Send me an email if you need order info. |
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Posted: 7/7/2005 9:25:16 PM EDT
[#37]
I finaly got a chance to take a pic in the dark through the magnifier. This is really how the reticle looks all the time through the 3x. I think it looks much clearer than without magnification.
It really does give you the oppertunity to take full advantage of that 1 MOA dot.
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Posted: 7/8/2005 6:04:59 PM EDT
[#38]
been there a couple times,and that would be a very bad thing,whacking it on a door jamb.not usually a problem, but stuff happens. lol.i definitely agree,i prefer it off (i've got it set up almost the same on my m1a ebr;don't want that .308 brass hitting my magnifier...personal preference).i've got mine on a gg&g multiflex mount,though.i only use it in those "oh look,there's something far away" (not contact distance) situations,anyway; overwatch,outdoor intensive ops,etc.although,i've got to admit,it is an interesting setup.but the less there is to get hung up,the better |
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Posted: 7/8/2005 9:17:46 PM EDT
[#39]
You guys make it sound like it is sticking out a foot to the side.
It does not stick out that far. Definately not further than your shoulder does or a weapon mounted light either. If you do kick in doors for a living, you wear body armor and if you wear body armor, you go in with your shoulders square. If you are square going through a door and this thing hangs on a door jam, you are doing something seriously wrong because YOU would be hanging on that door jam as well. Like I have said before, you really have to try it. I have yet to hear one person who acctually owns one say it sticks out too far.  Besides, it does have an ARMS throw lever and you can remove it any time. 
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Posted: 7/9/2005 6:23:58 AM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 7/9/2005 6:24:59 AM EDT
[#41]
That's all I've said all along. |
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Posted: 7/9/2005 4:00:46 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 7/9/2005 7:42:01 PM EDT
[#43]
sahicap,
It will work on any standard flat top. The dominator with the fixed BUIS won't work because the rear sight is too high. You need a folding BUIS or no BUIS at all. |
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Posted: 7/11/2005 2:39:09 PM EDT
[#44]
thank you
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Posted: 9/30/2005 9:30:30 PM EDT
[#45]
Bump so I don't loose it!
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Posted: 10/2/2005 8:11:38 AM EDT
[#46]
tag
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Posted: 10/2/2005 8:34:16 AM EDT
[#47]
In real use, the Eotech with the 3X gives outstanding clarity, and worked much better for me in all lighting conditions. The 3X does NOT increase the "grain" of the Eotech reticle, as already mentioned, it simply looks that way because the adjustment is cranked so high for the picture. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 1:11:12 PM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 10/4/2005 3:41:46 PM EDT
[#49]
Who are you talking to?
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Posted: 10/9/2005 7:04:11 PM EDT
[#50]
So anyone know aprox price with flip mount thing?
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