Duty Ammo - AR15.COM

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Posted: 2/26/2007 6:03:09 PM EDT

What type of duty ammo does your department use ?
Trying to get ideas on what we need to carry and wanted several different options on what we will be needing, as fas as testing goes.
Looking for entry ammo as fas as clearing a house goes as well as something that can shoot through car doors or glass?
Is there one bullet that can do both ?
What brand, type of bullet and grain do you carry ?

Posted: 2/26/2007 6:21:09 PM EDT

[#1]

Even though I like to think I am fairly knowledgeable about ammunition performance, I wouldn't presume to give you recommendations. AR15.com is NOT where LEOs should come for their primary source of info.

Have your department get in touch with someone at the FBI Academy Ballistic Research Facility. They're the best qualified to give you recommendations.

Posted: 2/26/2007 6:35:20 PM EDT

[#2]

Our Chief is one of those kind of guys, that no matter what he reads or hears about he is going to have to "Test that bad boy out" which is fine by me because we get to do alot fo HANDS ON TESTING if you know what I mean.
Just trying to get ideas on what type of ammo other departments are using because he has it lined up to start shooting through some junk cars for testing as well as some plywood, drywall and all that.
He wanted to test a couple different bullets, as well as grains to see which one he thought worked the best.
Just wondering what other departments were carried, so slim down the search to some extent, because we had a very long wait on which brand of rifle he chose. Price didn't matter, just had to "Test" every brand before buying one. Took a long time of shooting just sbout every AR on the market before he slimmed it down to the final 3 that he shot for a week.
Guess it is good to go through those types of tests, and being that picky about stuff but sure does suck when you are the "Grunts" so to speak of changing targets and cleaning weapons.
Just trying to get some general ideas on what to start looking at as far as bullet types mostly.

Posted: 2/26/2007 6:42:43 PM EDT

[#3]

So you're saying he's going to question what the experts at the FBI tell him?

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

There are some stickies at the top of the page. In particular, read the one "Choices for self defense ammo". It's more geared toward non-barrier penetration, but has some tidbits about that as well. Doctor Roberts general recommendations are as follows:

www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=20321&Main=19921#Post20321

Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of agency ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in .223/5.56 mm:

For general purpose combat use with 1/7 twist barrels from 0 to 600 yards, I would choose one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy match OTM loadings: either the Hornady 75 gr TAP (#8126N) using the OTM bullet w/cannelure or the equally good 77 gr Nosler OTM w/cannelure loaded by Black Hills, followed by the 77 gr Sierra Match King OTM-which, while exceedingly accurate, offers slightly reduced terminal effects. If your expected engagement scenario is at more typical LE distances, say out to 200 yards, then the .223 SAAMI pressure loads are fine. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however, their trajectory is like a rainbow-definitely for use under 150 - 200 yards.

NOTE: For general purpose use, if stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr match OTM loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), or one of the new Federal 64 gr TRU (223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, or Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP's are the best choices to most likely run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. You are screwed with 1/12 twists, I would probably choose the 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical--LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle--P223T2) in order to ensure adequate penetration.

If routinely engaging vehicles, the only LE .223 loads which effectively penetrate automobiles are the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load. While not bad choices, neither the new Hornady 60 gr “barrier penetration” JSP nor the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullets were quite as effective as the proven Trophy Bonded Bear Claws against glass in our testing. None of the OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer good performance through automobile glass. FWIW, contrary to what many believe, 62 gr M855 FMJ also is not very good against glass.

If a short barreled 5.56 mm weapon, such as the Colt Commando, LMT/Crane Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK 53, HK G36C, etc… is used with a 1/7 twist barrel, the 75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, 77 gr SMK OTM, and 100 gr BH OTM loadings offer acceptable performance; with a 1/9 twist, stick with the Fed 55 or 62 gr Tac bonded JSP's. Remember, with barrels under 14.5”, the effective engagement distance is significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on the JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in a recent LE training course. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S.

Posted: 2/26/2007 6:50:51 PM EDT

[#4]

Thanks for that, I'll try to pick up some of the mentioned ammo for his testing.
Talking about believing what others say? We had to convence him that an auto pistol is much better than a revolver for use on duty. IE : We had to prove to him that a GLOCK was worth carrying by shooting and shooting and shooting and ............ Shooting it to prove that auto's have progressed so they don't jam. Not to mention that 15 shots is far better than 6.
Took a while but finally go the point across. He is old school and like to try stuff.
Been is law enforcement since the 60's and is a great guy to back you up on things but if he hasn't tryied it............ He will as far as equipment goes. Guess that is the old school in him.
Thanks for the post

Posted: 2/26/2007 6:54:26 PM EDT

[#5]

We use Federal TRU

Posted: 2/26/2007 9:56:32 PM EDT

[#6]

height=8

Quoted:
We had to prove to him that a GLOCK was worth carrying by shooting and shooting and shooting and ............ Shooting it to prove that auto's have progressed so they don't jam.

Maybe I'm ignorant, but I thought the 1911 did that long long long ago. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted: 2/26/2007 10:00:46 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Even though I like to think I am fairly knowledgeable about ammunition performance, I wouldn't presume to give you recommendations. AR15.com is NOT where LEOs should come for their primary source of info.

Have your department get in touch with someone at the FBI Academy Ballistic Research Facility. They're the best qualified to give you recommendations.

Good gawd not to kiss the mods ass, but that has to be one of the most honest & valuable posts to answer a specific question I've seen on AR15.com.............to many times the arm chair warriors chime in and start spilling BS.

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