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Posted: 11/28/2007 7:54:12 PM EDT
I was wondering if the US Army is still using the A4? What optics do they use?
Thanks
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 7:55:53 PM EDT
USMC adopted the M16A4.

US Army uses Aimpoints.

I don't know if Army uses A4s.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 8:45:23 PM EDT
According to what I've read from these forums, the USMC has adoped the M16A4 as the standard issue infantry rifle. From E-1 to E-5, you are issued an M16A4. E-6 and above, an M4 carbine.

The US Army on the other hand is pretty much in the middle of transitioning from the A2 and the A4 to the M4 carbine to all front line combat arms units.

The Army also uses ACOGs, by the way..
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 8:57:24 PM EDT
No, the Marines use the M16A4; the US Army is using the M4 carbine and the M16A2.



US ARMY SOLDIER FROM THE 3RD ID; ARMED WITH AN M4 CARBINE WITH AN M68 COMBAT OPTICAL SIGHT



US MARINES ARMED WITH M16A4 RIFLES AND M249 SQUAD AUTOMATIC WEAPONS
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 9:06:04 PM EDT
Infantry units had M16A4s when I was with 4th ID at Ft Hood, only thing Ive had issued (M16 types) is a M16A2. The one Ive never seen in person is the M16A3, I think its a Air Force thing.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 9:10:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:
Infantry units had M16A4s when I was with 4th ID at Ft Hood, only thing Ive had issued (M16 types) is a M16A2. The one Ive never seen in person is the M16A3, I think its a Air Force thing.


A3s are a Navy thing too.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 9:28:29 PM EDT
Erm, I was issued a new, out-of-the-box Colt M4 (and an M9) as a lance corporal (E-3) a few months back when my squadron was working up to deploy. Same with every other Marine in the MP section. Didn't see a single 'A4 in the whole squadron. Then again, the Air Wing *is* something of a different creature. That said, maybe a quarter of the grunts that trained simultaneously with us in Yuma were packing M4s as well.

I suppose the point of that somewhat rambling post was that it's not as clean-cut as previously alluded. I've seen a couple of Army cats packing 'A4s, and a good number of Marines with carbines. And not just SNCOs and officers.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 9:38:57 PM EDT




Link Posted: 11/28/2007 10:31:22 PM EDT
Both the Marines and Army use A2's, A4's, and M4's. I know because Ive seen them all carried by both. I got an A4 because I had my own ACOG, and was Army...


Marines seem to be heading towards M4's and A4's while the Army seems to be going to mostly M4's.


Optics, again with both, range from CCO's to EOTechs to ACOGS.


My best friend:



Me (on right):







Link Posted: 11/29/2007 3:30:35 AM EDT
Just a random question....but would an individual have a choice in what they're issued? By that I mean they get an M4 but would rather have a M16A2 or A4. Was wondering if the armorer would just swap them out for them if there's extras lying around the armory or if it's against regs.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 5:31:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By K1rodeoboater:
Just a random question....but would an individual have a choice in what they're issued? By that I mean they get an M4 but would rather have a M16A2 or A4. Was wondering if the armorer would just swap them out for them if there's extras lying around the armory or if it's against regs.


Most armories do have some M16s still in the arms room. It would be up tot he unit 1SG if they can use them or not- usually the 1SG makes the weapon's assignments with the input of the other NCOs. There is no swapping of uppers and no spare parts in Arms Rooms- against regulations. Lowers are tracked as a weapon system, so there is no swapping uppers. There was an issue awhile ago with some units putting laser grips on their M9s. The issue was that it changed the weapon system type because the Army had adopted an M9 with laser grips under a different type (instead of just adopting the grips as an accessory like common sense would dictate). I recall reading it in Preventative Maintenece Monthly (my fav to pick up and read in the orderly room).
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 6:40:19 AM EDT
lol the adopted another M9 with laser grips and designated it a new weapon....WTF.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 6:45:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By K1rodeoboater:
lol the adopted another M9 with laser grips and designated it a new weapon....WTF.


Yeah, thats like swapping barrels on an A4, sticking on an optic and calling it a SDM-R....oh, wait..
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 6:53:16 AM EDT
I dunno I too would have thought it would be an accessory like all the stuff for the M4 and M16 rifles (optics, 203, vert grip, ect)
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 7:24:26 AM EDT
1st off, Thank you to all the servicemen for your defense of our freedom. Without men and women like you we would not enjoy the freedom of this board.

2nd, thanks for the great pictures nad information.


3rd, I have read where the Marines use the RCO but what ACOG does the Army use?

4th, do you have to use the spacer that comes with military Aimpoint mounts on a flat top upper?

Link Posted: 11/29/2007 7:39:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 8:13:35 AM EDT by Augee]

Originally Posted By M4builder:

Originally Posted By K1rodeoboater:
lol the adopted another M9 with laser grips and designated it a new weapon....WTF.


Yeah, thats like swapping barrels on an A4, sticking on an optic and calling it a SDM-R....oh, wait..


If you're talking about the 3ID SDM-R's, then they're a very different rifle. If you're talking about the SDM-R as a class of rifles, the distinction is not in their configuration, but in their employment.

My "DM-R" is an M14 with a variable power Tasco target scope. We also have five ACOG's, but none are "SDM-R's," even though identical rifles have been so called, because ours are not used in that capacity.

~Augee

ETA:

When I see Marines with ACOG's, other than a few early photos of M4's with TA01NSN's, probably M4A1's with SOPMOD kits, they're almost always seen with BAC ACOG's, ie. TA31F's or TA31RCO's.

The TA31RCO was developed directly from the TA31F for the military.

In Army service, issued, not privately owned, I've seen TA01NSN's, TA31F's, TA11F's, and TA31RCO's, as well as some photos popping up here and there of TA01NSN's that have MRD's mounted in protective wing mounts in 1ID. I run the Trijicon Red Dot in mine, but I don't know what the issued one uses, as mine is privately owned.

The "spacer, specially shaped" in the Aimpoint QRP mount is designed to be used for absolute cowitness with the irons when mounted on a flattop receiver. When mounted without it to a flattop, the dot is too low, and is sitting in the "lower 1/3" of the irons, if that makes sense, but in other words, the relationship of the dot to the irons is too low to really be effective.

It does not have to be used, however, when mounted on a gooseneck mount to a carry handled weapon, and it achieves absolute cowitness. When used with the spacer and gooseneck, though, you get a lower 1/3 cowitness. "As issued," though, Army Aimpoints are only set up for absolute cowitness. Hypothetically speaking, I guess, you might be able to try to stack an extra spacer, and extra long screws in the QRP to get an lower third, but IMHO, at that point, you may as well just buy a different mount.

Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:05:59 AM EDT
Belmont31R, they gave you an A4 in the army because you had an ACOG? What was the rationale behind that? How did it work out for you, was the A4 too heavy or long for you? Would you have preferred the M4?
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:33:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By K1rodeoboater:
lol the adopted another M9 with laser grips and designated it a new weapon....WTF.

That is like all the different versions of the Humvee, add a winch or change from soft top to a hard top and you now have a different model. In all the years that I was in, I could never understand the rational behind this. We only had one choice in rifles -M16A2, they were just starting to field the M4's when I got out. Hell I didn't get issued a A2 or the M9 until 1992, until then I carried the A1 and 1911.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:41:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 8:41:49 AM EDT by Milla]
I prefer the M4 over the A4, our scouts just got M4's, Crewman have A4's (which makes sense they get out more often) but i think they should of ordered the entire unit M4's. I shot as good and better at the rifle range with an M4 than I did an M16, so people who complain they aren't as accurate as M16's are full of it.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:44:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 8:46:44 AM EDT by FA_45ACP]
Yes, yes, there are A4s still in circulation in the Army. There are also thousands of A2s and even A1s in training post..

Point being that the Army is in the process of transitioning to an all M4 force. What they do with squad designated marksmen hasn't been standardized yet as you can see they're using everything from M14s to M16A4s with acogs.


Army position: M4 is Soldier's rifle of choice

The US Army chooses the Trijicon ACOG
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:42:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NovaPump:
Belmont31R, they gave you an A4 in the army because you had an ACOG? What was the rationale behind that? How did it work out for you, was the A4 too heavy or long for you? Would you have preferred the M4?



In my unit we had mostly A2's and some A4's. The 4's were 'saved' for senior enlisted or those who just got one because thats the only thing available when they were assigned a weapon. I was assigned an A2 initially, and then when our PL went to another unit that one became available. I begged the arms room guy to switch me rifles, and he did luckily.

Yes I would have much rather preferred an M4. HMMWV's are big but there isnt a lot of room for the people. Its a lot easier to get in and out of them with a smaller weapon. At the ranges most engagements occur the extra barrel length is pretty meaningless for the extra bullet speed and impact energy, IMO. Saying that I was still quite happy with my A4 and didnt feel it was a huge hinderance as most of what I did was foot work anyways. I got used to the weight and it was never a big deal. And some of the M4's some of the guys were toting around were heavier with all the junk hanging off them. Saw a unit where the 203 gunners had the new sights that attach to the bottom of the 203, a weapon light, PAQ-2, ACOG, and a spare mag holder on the left side. Things had to weigh over 10lbs easy.

That Benelli M4 12GA in the 1st photo belonged to civilian contractors and I was able to borrow it for a couple months. Pretty kick ass weapon right there!

Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:44:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FA_45ACP:
Yes, yes, there are A4s still in circulation in the Army. There are also thousands of A2s and even A1s in training post..

Point being that the Army is in the process of transitioning to an all M4 force. What they do with squad designated marksmen hasn't been standardized yet as you can see they're using everything from M14s to M16A4s with acogs.


Army position: M4 is Soldier's rifle of choice

The US Army chooses the Trijicon ACOG



Indeed. While in Kuwait and I saw an entire NG batt. with brand new A4's and that was in early 2006. They had to have just gotten them before deploying.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 5:48:07 PM EDT
My Guard unit got A4s and some M4s in early 2003 IIRC. Then in early '04 we got 240B and the short barrels for the SAWs.
We didn't get activated until the end of '04.

Last year we traded all of our A4s in for M4s.

Link Posted: 11/29/2007 6:43:48 PM EDT
Excuse the ignorance, what're the technical differences b/t A4 and A2's?

Thanks
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 6:49:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By K1rodeoboater:
lol the adopted another M9 with laser grips and designated it a new weapon....WTF.

Do you mean the M9A1? Adding an accessory rail to attach lights is enough to give it a different designation, if for no other reason than being able to specify holster compatibility.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 6:50:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 6:50:32 PM EDT by Hoplophile]
Double tap.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 6:57:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rush4theYehO:
Excuse the ignorance, what're the technical differences b/t A4 and A2's?

Thanks


Wikipedia is your friend!


The M16A4, now standard issue for front-line U.S. Marine Corps and some U.S. Army units, replaces the combination fixed carry handle/rear iron sight with a MIL-STD-1913 Picatinny rail, allowing for the rifle to be equipped with a carry handle and/or most military and consumer scopes or sighting systems. Most of the U.S. Marine Corps' M16A4s are equipped with a Knight's Armament Company M5 RAS handguard, allowing vertical grips, lasers, tactical lights, and other accessories to be attached. U.S. Army M16A4s also often feature the KAC M5 RAS. In U.S. Army Field Manuals, M16A4s fitted with the RAS are sometimes referred to as M16A4 MWS or Modular Weapon System. This model retains the 3-round burst mode of the M16A2.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 7:38:39 PM EDT
my unit still has the m16a2 but we will be getting m4s soon

I've got a dozen ACOGs and m68/aimpoints

today I dropped an order for 70 eotech 552s

we almost were forced into ordering this new "insight" optic that has built in visible and IR lasers but that was dropped due to price.


There are a4s in the division though.


so to answer your question, yes to all the above.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 7:10:38 PM EDT
it seems like everywhere the trend is towards the M4 even though the A4 is still available.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 9:10:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2007 9:24:53 PM EDT by SgtSauer]
I'm active duty in the Missouri Army National Guard. Our MTOE Combat Engineer units are currently receiving new M16A4 MWS and M4 MWS. Many units still have MTOE requirements and inventories of M16A2's. We had M4's issued to E-7's, LT's and 1SG. We had about a dozen M68's in the battalion HQ company and they ended up being used on A2's mostly utilizing the issued A2 carry handle adapter that comes in the issue M68 CCO kit.

The Combat Engineer units are the only organizations that I have working knowledge of. Our MP units are probably being equiped in a similar manner. We are also standing up an infantry battalion in 2008-2009. I'm anxious to see what their authorizations end up being.

I deployed to Iraq in March of 03 and returned home July 04. I carried an A2 the whole time. Missouri started receiving M16A4's around 2004.

Current MTOE authrozations in Missouri are showing M68 CCO and TA-31F's from what I understand. I've only personally seen M68 CCO's. I do that some TA-31F's are being used by the state marksmanship training section for training at units. I don't know if there are any TA-31F's actually in MTOE units yet. The M240's and M249's seem to be getting ELCAN scopes.

There is an M9A1 being procured now. It is an M9 with an integral frame rail. It is referenced in the current M9 -20 TM that is multi-service. Replacement laser grips are available as an Additional Authorized List item with commander approval. The M9A1 supposedly was developed as a marine corps requirement.

This is off of Wikipedia---Take it as you will:

In May 2005, the U.S. Marine Corps (USMC) awarded a sole-source contract to Beretta for 3,480 "M9A1" pistols (M9 with an accessory rail, also available to the public from June 2006).

This is off of Beretta's website:

M9A1


The Beretta M9A1 evolved from the base design of the battle-tested and proven M9 pistol, with input from military and law enforcement agencies throughout the world. Developed to meet the demanding requirements of the United States Marine Corps, the M9A1 incorporates the established reliability and performance of the M9 with added features needed for the ever changing missions of peacekeeping forces around the world.

I don't know if any are in the Army system yet.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 4:57:03 AM EDT
We had brand new A4's when we mobbed in Sept. '05, still have them in Arms room. Apparently the Army doesnt think that the National Guard infantry needs M4's right now but whatever.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 8:01:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2007 8:07:14 AM EDT by DM1975]
Here is an Arny M16A4 for those that say the Army does not use them(I know it has been beat to death by now but....), and an ACOG for those that say the Army only uses the Aimpoint. This was one of my issue rifles. The Army still uses them also.





And me kicking back on a rest break after a very very long night and morning of searching houses with my A4 and ACOG.



and again



And since I grew up in the country I thought this would be a cool picture too



Now true this was used as a DMR rifle, but we had a LOT of A4's in my Battalion.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 8:38:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Here is an Arny M16A4 for those that say the Army does not use them(I know it has been beat to death by now but....), and an ACOG for those that say the Army only uses the Aimpoint. This was one of my issue rifles. The Army still uses them also.

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/DSCF1517.jpg

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/DSCF0039.jpg

And me kicking back on a rest break after a very very long night and morning of searching houses with my A4 and ACOG.

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/DSC01134.jpg

and again

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/tired-of-walking.jpg

And since I grew up in the country I thought this would be a cool picture too

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/tractoriniraq.jpg

Now true this was used as a DMR rifle, but we had a LOT of A4's in my Battalion.



Did two deployments with 1AD. Last one was with 2BCT.....
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 8:40:59 AM EDT
I don't think anyone here can doubt that the Army uses the A4. There just doesn't to be any set guidelines on who gets what. It all seems based on the individual company or battalion.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 8:54:37 AM EDT
Unit weapon issue is dictated by the units MTOE (Modified Table of Organization and Equipment). Each type of unit (i.e. MP, Infantry, Engineer) has a specific allowance of personnel as dictated by the MTOE. The MTOE then dictates what weapon and equipment the personnel have down to the individual level.

It is not random by any means. Uncle Sam has a method to the madness.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 9:39:22 AM EDT
To clarify a bit:

Back in the day, everyone normal had the M16A-2. (I know, I know, I'm only going back so far! )

When the M4's were originally adopted, they were intended for armored vehicle crewmen, support, ect. They were originally adopted on the MTOE (or whatever it was called back then) as a replacement for M3A3 Grease Guns.

The M4, however, got co-opted for the most part by specialty units, i.e. your Airborne and Air Assault Infantry, Rangers, ect. Mostly everyone else was still getting M16A-2's.

However, the M16A-4 was beginning to be adopted to replace M16A-2's, and needless to say, went first to units who it was felt most needed them, i.e. straight leg Infantry type units. The M16A-4 is more or less a direct replacement for the M16A-2, and the effort was made to get them to the units that for lack of a more graceful way to put it... actually needed their long guns.

Thus, the Army went to war with an MTOE which looked essentially like this:

Straight Leg Infantry - M16A-4
Mech Infantry dismounts - M16A-4
Mech Infantry crewmen - M4
CAV dismounts - M16A-4
Armored vehicle crewmen - M4
(in any of these type units, M4's were often also seen in the hands of senior personnel and RTO's, ect.)
Air Assault/Airbore - M4

This is what the hypothetical MTOE would have more or less looked for the M16A-4 and its use. Of course, that perfect hypothetical situation never happens, so bear with me.

As reserve component units (AR/ARNG) began deploying in force, it was found that they needed updated weapons, and units began getting newer needed weapons according to the above MTOE. However, the M16A-4 was a direct replacement for the M16A-2, so units with A2's on MTOE could have instead ordered and received A4's, instead. Otherwise, A2's were more or less pulled from the above type units, and handed down to other units, to allow the new weapons to come in.

At this point in time, of course, weapons production at both Colt and FN have gone up massively, in the face of prolonged conflict.

Units deploying immediately are given priority on switching out their M16A-2's for A4's, while those that are not begin to make the change more slowly and gradually.

This plan is on track for a few years, outfitting deploying units, and rush drop shipping A4's to deploying units. Until the Army decides that the A4 is really more gun than necessary, and drops the A4's from MTOE, and decides that it wants to put an M4 in the hands of every soldier possible. Meaning that all the MTOE slots for M16A-4's are now replaced by M4's.

A variety of things happen then, some units who had not yet gotten the M16A-4's simply get M4's. Some units have some M16A-4's, but not a whole compliment, and fill in the blanks with M4's, reorganizing their own TO's to reflect the mix of weapons, some units with an already full compliment of A4's simply don't worry about it, while others give up the A4's to units now using the A2, to take up M4's.

The result, especially in the reserve components then becomes a hodgepodge of mixed up MTOE's, some units still operating off a 2003 MTOE, some using a 2005 MTOE, and some using a 2007 MTOE. Of course, the norm is none of the above, it's really just a strange transitional MTOE to reflect what the unit had, has, and has received. For example, a unit that received brand new A4's the last time they deployed in '04 or '05, and has not deployed since is probably still using their A4's. Most likely, however, when they redeploy in '08 or '09, they will probably end up getting another brand new shipment of M4's to fit their new deploying MTOE.

Has this clarified things for anybody, or just confused them more?

If you think this is screwy, don't even bother worrying about optics, or reorganizing into Brigade Combat Teams, and the life cycle unit.

~Augee
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 9:58:45 AM EDT
Augee, thank you very much for that explanation. Everything makes sense now.

This sounds a lot like what happened in the BDU -> ACU transition.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 10:17:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Belmont31R:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Here is an Arny M16A4 for those that say the Army does not use them(I know it has been beat to death by now but....), and an ACOG for those that say the Army only uses the Aimpoint. This was one of my issue rifles. The Army still uses them also.

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/DSCF1517.jpg

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/DSCF0039.jpg

And me kicking back on a rest break after a very very long night and morning of searching houses with my A4 and ACOG.

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/DSC01134.jpg

and again

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/tired-of-walking.jpg

And since I grew up in the country I thought this would be a cool picture too

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/tractoriniraq.jpg

Now true this was used as a DMR rifle, but we had a LOT of A4's in my Battalion.



Did two deployments with 1AD. Last one was with 2BCT.....


I did two depolyments with 1AD too. Kinda miss it.
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