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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:55:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 4:44:49 PM EST by DBAR]
What kind of accuracy should I be content with when useing my iron (buis) sight?
I have a dissy (bm upper, 1/9) and at 100 meters at Lake City Conservation Range I was able to put 10 rnds of 55 gr (Winchester White Box stuff) fmj into a 3" group. It took me a while to shoot this group. I was useing a carpet covered wooden block as support, and I took my sweet time. I did this only one time. I tried to duplicate it but only got close at 4.5" or so. Here are some pics of the dissy and the target.

What kind of accuracy are you guys experiencing with your iron sights?





Link Posted: 10/20/2004 4:43:13 PM EST
Does anyone use iron sight anymore?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 4:49:10 PM EST
I use them all the time.The red dot is my night sight.That group is excellent for 100 meters.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 4:50:18 PM EST
The last time I was at a range, I had my targets at 50 meters (short range) and using irons, I was getting 1.5-2" groups. I know I could lower this a bit with a better trigger and grip since this is a new rifle with about a 7 lbs. trigger and the grip is way too big for me, so I can't get a consistent grip. By the way, I was using an ammo box and a sand bag as a rest.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:02:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 5:05:09 PM EST by CeramicGod]
Prone position at 100 yards, with sling support and Black Hills match ammo, I get a bit over 1 MOA. So around 1 1/4".
However, this is a match barrel and a floated handguard...

Out of my standard Colt Hbar, I get about 2", or 2 moa.

I would expect better than 3.5" with sandbag support, in fact, I believe that the military requires 3 moa or better out of their military rifles?

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:03:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By caneau:
The last time I was at a range, I had my targets at 50 meters (short range) and using irons, I was getting 1.5-2" groups. I know I could lower this a bit with a better trigger and grip since this is a new rifle with about a 7 lbs. trigger and the grip is way too big for me, so I can't get a consistent grip. By the way, I was using an ammo box and a sand bag as a rest.



7 lb trigger - been there done that. I do recommend a good 2 stage trigger. They aren't that expensive right now. I believe rra has a good one for around $100 or so. I have a CLE 2 stage trigger and I have had a lot of good luck with it. Most say the RRA is better.

btw - the support I was speaking of, is what they have for us at the range. I forgot my sand bags. I have a bench rest, but haven't used it in a long time.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:03:43 PM EST
I dont use anything but irons.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:08:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By model927:
I use them all the time.The red dot is my night sight.That group is excellent for 100 meters.



What type of red dot do you use, and how close to the rear do you have yours mounted?
The reason I ask is because today I felt as if I may have my red dot mounted to close.

btw - What kind of accuracy do you get out of your red dot? I have a 3 moa Burris Speed Dot, but I usually get 6 moa groups at 100 meters, and 3-4 moa at 50 meters.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:11:26 PM EST
I always use iron sights, gettin into competition service rifle shooting, so i better be fairly decent with em.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:26:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 5:28:17 PM EST by DBAR]

Originally Posted By OD:
I always use iron sights, gettin into competition service rifle shooting, so i better be fairly decent with em.



How well do you do?

The reason I ask all these questions about iron sights is because I use a Hbar (suppose to help accuracy?), and I just got it floated (again, suppose to help accuracy). Prior to floating it I was grouping 3.5 to 4 moa, and now I group at 3 moa ( takeing my time ). So I'm a bit frustrated. I've been shooting along time and I've practiced alot. I feel that I should be able to do better with all the practice, and floating the barrel. Does anyone have any advice for me? Should I accept this as the best I'll do?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:30:16 PM EST
It's always been my belief that you should be proficient with irons out to 200M or so .
While they can be used well beyond that it takes skills that most people never master .
In fact outside of the military , learning how to use iron sights is pretty much a self taught
skill . Some people cover the aim point with the front post , while others sit the aim point
on top of the front post , and it actually doesn’t matter as long as your consistent with
your sight picture .

My preference is a dot optic out to 100m , then a telescopic past that , with BUIS
in either case .

I also believe that no one weapon is the best for all ranges , unpopular as that may be

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:50:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 5:52:01 PM EST by CeramicGod]
Yes, I do have some advice. Start shooting High Power aggregate competition, preferably by starting by attending a "clinic".

There is no better way to improve your marksmanship, out to 600 yards with iron sights. It works wonders, and you'll learn proper use of your loop sling, sight adjustments, windage, clicks...the whole nine yards.

Plus, after doing that for a few years, its really fun to goto the range and go prone and hit the gongs at 600 iron sights while others are struggling a lane down with their scopes at 100....
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:56:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
I dont use anything but irons.



+1
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:57:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
Yes, I do have some advice. Start shooting High Power aggregate competition, preferably by starting by attending a "clinic".

There is no better way to improve your marksmanship, out to 600 yards with iron sights. It works wonders, and you'll learn proper use of your loop sling, sight adjustments, windage, clicks...the whole nine yards.

Plus, after doing that for a few years, its really fun to goto the range and go prone and hit the gongs at 600 iron sights while others are struggling a lane down with their scopes at 100....



I'll ck into it. Thank you
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:33:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:15:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By DBAR:
7 lb trigger - been there done that. I do recommend a good 2 stage trigger. They aren't that expensive right now. I believe rra has a good one for around $100 or so. I have a CLE 2 stage trigger and I have had a lot of good luck with it. Most say the RRA is better.

btw - the support I was speaking of, is what they have for us at the range. I forgot my sand bags. I have a bench rest, but haven't used it in a long time.



I've never been a big two stage fan but that's probably because I learned how to shoot on air guns and .22's with 3 lbs. single stage triggers. It spoils you really fast and I've never been able to get used to anything but a smooth, crisp break (don't even ask me to shoot a revolver double action, it's a sad sight to see). Tomorrow I should be getting the JP low power springs, so that should lower my trigger pull to around 4.5-5 lbs. Not great, but better than 7. Eventually I'll probably get the McCormick drop in unit.

Regarding the topic though, you'll pretty much always have irons on a rifle. You might not always have a scope. Learn to use both effectivly because each has their applications.

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:32:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By DBAR:
Does anyone use iron sight anymore?



None of my Sport Utility Rifles have glass.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:59:27 PM EST
Hell yeah! I use iron sights! One of my Bolt Actions has Iron sights. It kind of plays havoc when I mount my 4-14 Springfield on it, but Oh, Yeah!

Almost anybody can hit almost anything else with scopes. But a true marksman (or woman) should be able to use iron sights as well. When I first bought my Remington ADL in .223, I used the iron sights because I didn’t have enough money for a scope for a while. Iron sights made for Good Training.

In fact, a couple of years later I was having this Bad Day at the range. My groups stank; I couldn’t get any consistency at all. So I took off the scope I was using (Leupold Vari-X II, 3-9), and shot the last 40 rounds prone at a metal target 400 yards away. With a 100 yard zero I hit that target just over half the time. That I hit the target at all amazed me that day.

And I just got in a Bushy 11½ upper. The first time I used it I got better results than you are showing. You just need to practice some more.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:00:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 8:03:39 PM EST by model927]
To DBAR I have an aimpoint comp ML2 wich is fairly new just a few months old and before that was a MILLET red dot wich is also paralax free.On my flat top I mount it as far forward on the upper as I use regular M4 handguards and I cowitness with the front sight.On my other carbines I mount it on the carry handle so when its like that its about 3 inches of eye releif on the flattop its more like 6.I do like it best on the flat top though.To be honest I havent tried it for MOA accuracy at 100 yds although I can nail clay pigeons consistently off hand at 50 meters sand bagged Im getting 2 MOA some times slightly more and thats with fairly rapid fire a shot every 3 or 4 seconds and thats with the aimpoint.With the millet I have never measured the groups I was just happy to be able to hit clays at 50 and 100 yds.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:14:43 PM EST
I have two AR's. Both have iron sights. Aside from my hunting rifles and a few .22's, all my rifles have iron sights.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:29:29 PM EST
to me the only limitation... as obvious as i may be... to irons is your vision, and trigger or trigger sqeeze...
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:33:38 PM EST
I'm building an A2 right now. Otherwise my rifle have glass.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:37:24 PM EST

Almost anybody can hit almost anything else with scopes. But a true marksman (or woman) should be able to use iron sights as well.


You seem to imply that optics are somehow "unsporting".

A "true marksman" would use some highly accurized bolt-action rifle, not a sporterized military rifle.

Most people who have ARs want to punch holes in Jihadists/zombies/JBTs or whatever.

"Sportsmanship" aor the "marksman" myth be damned. Its the hits that count. And you get those best with optics.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:41:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 8:43:34 PM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By StormSurge:


A "true marksman" would use some highly accurized bolt-action rifle, not a sporterized military rifle.




Tell that to all the thousands of dedicated guys and gals that shoot DCM/CMP competition with their irons/ARs every year at Camp Perry and nationwide every year.

I daresay they would tell you you are wrong. I've seen a few grand masters at Camp Perry shoot better with Irons with an AR15 than a lot of people I know who use optics and bolt guns.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:57:14 PM EST
Right now my shorty AK has iron sights only. I shoot it very well and am just very comfortable with the iron sights. I'm reluctant to purchase an Eotech or Aimpoint because I might find that I prefer the irons. Then again I won't know until I try one.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:02:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:04:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:30:41 PM EST
all the time, every time

dont got no optics
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:36:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By DBAR:
Does anyone use iron sight anymore?



Starting shooting rifles at age 8 with iron sights. 33 years later still using iron sights and very comfortable with them.

Steve
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:17:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 2:18:29 AM EST by djgolus]

Originally Posted By svi40:

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
I dont use anything but irons.



+1



+2

W/ RRA 2 stage trigger

Link Posted: 10/21/2004 3:18:59 AM EST
I recently realized that I was neglecting my irons in favor of a scope on my 20'' A3. I've since switched and put a few hundred through with irons and boy am I rusty.

6 inch grouping at 100 yards, from a bench! I need some sandbags... i'm resting the rifle across my left arm which is rested across an ammo can. It works, I suppose, but I should work on a decent bench shooting setup (sandbags, etc).

In other words, be at least slightly satisfied with 3'' groups


- BG
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 3:34:43 AM EST
You shouldn't use a weapon unless you know how to use it in it's basic form first, to include shooting with irons. Then put optics on it if you have to.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 4:37:00 AM EST
A2 iron sights.

No offense Dbar, but that grouping may be the result of the shooter, and not the weapon. What type of shooting experience / training do you have?
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 4:49:17 AM EST
Then there are those who use optics due to eyes getting older
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 5:07:12 AM EST
I've got a RRA NM A2 and I'll hit about a 3" group at 100 yds. at 50 it's more like .75 w/handloads, around 1 with WWB. Your group looks okay to me, just more practice. Scopes help when you've got bad eyes like me. MJD
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 5:25:14 AM EST
That is a fantasic group @100. I shoot exclusively with irons because I like the challenge. Shooting scoped rifles bores me, and I'm really a handgun nut. Never cared much for rifles but I love the AR, and its the only rifle I own.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 5:26:43 AM EST
All my AR's have iron sights only. I guess the reason I do not have any glass is that I have a hard time justifying the cost. I get to buy more AR's when I don't spend the money on glass
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 5:29:11 AM EST
I use them every time I shoot, and that is a good group. I have found that when in doubt if you group is good or not take the target and hold it up with the center on the center of you chest and see where the holes are.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 5:36:47 AM EST
I use both,my aimpoint cowitness with my iron sights.

I use the A2 rear sight,usely hit what ever I aim at.

TG
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 5:54:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By DBAR:
Does anyone use iron sight anymore?



It's all I use.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:00:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 6:02:54 AM EST by knightsar]
I use iron sights also. Lake city is nice. You should try parma woods out also. That group is great. I don't expect any more from iron sights from a AR15 than the resualts you have had.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:06:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By DBAR:

Originally Posted By OD:
I always use iron sights, gettin into competition service rifle shooting, so i better be fairly decent with em.



How well do you do?

The reason I ask all these questions about iron sights is because I use a Hbar (suppose to help accuracy?), and I just got it floated (again, suppose to help accuracy). Prior to floating it I was grouping 3.5 to 4 moa, and now I group at 3 moa ( takeing my time ). So I'm a bit frustrated. I've been shooting along time and I've practiced alot. I feel that I should be able to do better with all the practice, and floating the barrel. Does anyone have any advice for me? Should I accept this as the best I'll do?



If you want to REALLY learn to shoot with irons, get involved in NRA Highpower matches. Most of your problems, I bet, are related to technical subtleties that you may not even be aware of.

Every time you change the way you hold on to the grip or the handguards, you change POI. Every time you change the amount of cheek pressure on the stock, you change POI. Every time your visual focus is not 110% on the front sight, you change POI. Every time you tense up to hold the rifle on target because your natural point of aim is not on the target, you change the POI.

If you are unsure of your rifle's accuracy, bench it and shot it using an optical sight and match ammo. REAL match ammo. Then you'll know whether the disconnect is with your technique or with the rifle.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:09:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By caneau:
I've never been a big two stage fan but that's probably because I learned how to shoot on air guns and .22's with 3 lbs. single stage triggers. It spoils you really fast and I've never been able to get used to anything but a smooth, crisp break (don't even ask me to shoot a revolver double action, it's a sad sight to see).



You would change your opinion of two stage triggers if you were to shoot an Anschutz two stage match trigger with the first stage set to about 1.5 lbs abd the second stage letoff set to around 8 ounces with a break like the proverbial glass rod.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:11:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By StormSurge:

Almost anybody can hit almost anything else with scopes. But a true marksman (or woman) should be able to use iron sights as well.


You seem to imply that optics are somehow "unsporting".

A "true marksman" would use some highly accurized bolt-action rifle, not a sporterized military rifle.

Most people who have ARs want to punch holes in Jihadists/zombies/JBTs or whatever.

"Sportsmanship" aor the "marksman" myth be damned. Its the hits that count. And you get those best with optics.



No, what he is saying is that someone who can master iron sights is a better all round shooter, including when using optics, than someone who has not.

If you don't think so, let's get on the 600 yard line, sling supported and have a 20 round match. Irons against optics.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:16:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 6:17:38 AM EST by SWO_daddy]

Originally Posted By SteveinAz:
That is a fantasic group @100. I



That's a 3.5 inch group. A good NRA Expert or Master can shoot that or better at 200 yards, from the sitting position, in 60 seconds or less.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:50:21 AM EST
Two AR's both with iron sights; M1A with iron sights; FAL, ditto; miscellaneous bolt actions with iron sights. Why? I'm a target shooter not a hunter. I'm 57 with bad eyes and bad shooting technique. I can easily measure my own performance with iron sights. I have generally given up rifles with military tangent sights in favor of receiver mounted peep sights. The peep sights stretch my abilities and force me to concentrate. I've shot with scopes and red dots, and they are fun. But you don't as easily build basic skill. There's also a bit of military "tradition" in it as well.

Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:52:57 AM EST
High Power competitive rifle shooting is probably the best training you can get on the use of iron sights.

I wish I had a dollar for every Bench Sniper I have met !

Optics big advantage is target aquisition and identification. Some people believe a scope will magically make you an expert shot but it isn't so, A bad shot with irons = A bad shot with a scope.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 7:19:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By DBAR:

Originally Posted By OD:
I always use iron sights, gettin into competition service rifle shooting, so i better be fairly decent with em.



How well do you do?

The reason I ask all these questions about iron sights is because I use a Hbar (suppose to help accuracy?), and I just got it floated (again, suppose to help accuracy). Prior to floating it I was grouping 3.5 to 4 moa, and now I group at 3 moa ( takeing my time ). So I'm a bit frustrated. I've been shooting along time and I've practiced alot. I feel that I should be able to do better with all the practice, and floating the barrel. Does anyone have any advice for me? Should I accept this as the best I'll do?



If you want to REALLY learn to shoot with irons, get involved in NRA Highpower matches. Most of your problems, I bet, are related to technical subtleties that you may not even be aware of.

Every time you change the way you hold on to the grip or the handguards, you change POI. Every time you change the amount of cheek pressure on the stock, you change POI. Every time your visual focus is not 110% on the front sight, you change POI. Every time you tense up to hold the rifle on target because your natural point of aim is not on the target, you change the POI.

If you are unsure of your rifle's accuracy, bench it and shot it using an optical sight and match ammo. REAL match ammo. Then you'll know whether the disconnect is with your technique or with the rifle.



This is a very good post.

As an aside (and I have no pictures) I just broke in my new AR A2, RRA with RRA 2 stage, SS heavy 20" barrel a couple weaks ago. 62 gr Wolf. IBZO, 47 total rounds fired. Last 6 shots, supported only by my 782 gear. 3 rounds, 200 yrds, dead center on steel plate, all rounds in the same splatter hole. 3 rounds, 300 yards, all rounds in same splatter hole, center -3 inches, 6 O'clock.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:51:14 PM EST

and Im building an irons-only A1 carbine


Me too! I want at least one AR with irons only.

But, optics are where its at for me. Eyesight not so good...
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 7:03:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:
A2 iron sights.

No offense Dbar, but that grouping may be the result of the shooter, and not the weapon. What type of shooting experience / training do you have?



Your more than likely correct. I've been behind an AR for about 3 years with no real training. I've just practiced a lot, and have done a lot of reading.

knightstar,
I've been to Parma, and I like it better. I just live closer to Lake City. Thanks for compliment.

SWO_daddy,
Thanks for makeing me feel like a novice. (LOL) 3.5" group? How should I measure a group? That orange circle is 3" in diameter.

I thank all of you people who are recomending High Power or NRA competition. I work 50+ hours a week and I never have a full weekend off. So I gave up on this about a year and a half ago, and traded my 20" upper in on my dissy. I kind of regret that trade, but it gives me a good reason for my next build. I'll just have to figure out how to get more time to practice.
Practice, Practice, Practice, that's what I need.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 7:11:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
Hell yeah! I use iron sights! One of my Bolt Actions has Iron sights. It kind of plays havoc when I mount my 4-14 Springfield on it, but Oh, Yeah!

Almost anybody can hit almost anything else with scopes. But a true marksman (or woman) should be able to use iron sights as well. When I first bought my Remington ADL in .223, I used the iron sights because I didn’t have enough money for a scope for a while. Iron sights made for Good Training.

In fact, a couple of years later I was having this Bad Day at the range. My groups stank; I couldn’t get any consistency at all. So I took off the scope I was using (Leupold Vari-X II, 3-9), and shot the last 40 rounds prone at a metal target 400 yards away. With a 100 yard zero I hit that target just over half the time. That I hit the target at all amazed me that day.

And I just got in a Bushy 11½ upper. The first time I used it I got better results than you are showing. You just need to practice some more.


I'll practice some more. That is for sure. I have to say that you must be a very good marksman to be able to shoot sub 3moa @ 100 meters with a 11.5" bbl. That is impressive. YOU the MAN!
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