User Panel
Posted: 8/27/2010 5:56:27 PM EST
It seems to be competitively priced, and it's "mil-spec," but features-wise it doesn't seem to be good at anything:
-Fragments well? Not really -Expands? No -Accurate? Not so much -Cheap? Not particularly I've been lurking in the Ammo forum for a while, and I've never heard anyone sing its praises in any way at all. Am I missing something? |
|
You can get PMC and LC M855 for $310-320/1k.
M855 does penetrate metal better then OTM and FMJ rounds. |
|
It does what it was (AFAIK) designed to do - penetrate various levels of personal body armor at various ranges.
|
|
I sure in the hell wouldn't want to get hit with it. People bag on it but it has taken the life of many.
|
|
I would rather have the 55 grain.
The M855, in my hands, has never been very accurate compaired to the 55 grain FMJ. Try shooting some steel with the old 55 gr and the M855. Anything up close I can't tell a difference in penetration. Bill |
|
IIRC the M855 round was supposed to penetrate a steel helmet at 400m or 600m...other than that I don't know what else it does better than the M193.
|
|
I thought M855 would be fine for combat, its just the people we are using it against right now are too skinny and dont have any gear or armor on, so it zips right through them.
|
|
Supposedly more effective in the 14.5" 1:7 barrel of the M4.
M193 was designed for the 20" 1:12 barrel of the original M16A1 As I understand it anyway.
|
|
Quoted:
I would rather have the 55 grain. The M855, in my hands, has never been very accurate compaired to the 55 grain FMJ. Try shooting some steel with the old 55 gr and the M855. Anything up close I can't tell a difference in penetration. Bill Last weekend I was shooting LC M193, Prvi M193, and LC M855 at one of those 1/2" thick hardened steel targets Widener's sells, from about 75 yds.. All either type of M193 did was blow paint off (I'd painted it). The M855 did a noticably better job of "cleaning" and left an ever so slight dimple at each impact location. Both types of rounds easily passed through the 1" diameter Home Depot steel pipe I was using to hang the target from. |
|
It's good for the bad guy out the front door, I don't even need to get out of bed as it's two thin walls and one door away.
|
|
Quoted: I sure in the hell wouldn't want to get hit with it. People bag on it but it has taken the life of many. Yep. It's a life taker and a heart breaker. |
|
Quoted:
I would rather have the 55 grain. The M855, in my hands, has never been very accurate compaired to the 55 grain FMJ. Try shooting some steel with the old 55 gr and the M855. Anything up close I can't tell a difference in penetration. Bill I have a 1/7 twist GG&G Dominator 1 14.5 upper and have the exact opposite results. I believe it's the heavier 62 gr bullet. The 55 gr bullet opens up my group, while the 62 gr closes it. 1098cya |
|
Quoted:
Supposedly more effective in the 14.5" 1:7 barrel of the M4. M193 was designed for the 20" 1:12 barrel of the original M16A1 As I understand it anyway. +1 This is the results I'm getting, |
|
At home defense ranges, I'm sure M855 will cause devastating fragmentation even out of a 14.5" barrel.
You don't typically start seeing problems until 75 yards or more (with a 14.5" barrel). At least, that's what we've been led to believe here for 10 years. |
|
Quoted:
Supposedly more effective in the 14.5" 1:7 barrel of the M4. M193 was designed for the 20" 1:12 barrel of the original M16A1 As I understand it anyway. Huh? You do know that the M4 is pretty new right? That the M855 round using the SS109 was designed for the original Minimi (which became our SAW) in the late 70s ish. That the M16A2 that was developed and adopted in the early 80s, not to mention the A3, and the A4 were all 20" rifles right? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I sure in the hell wouldn't want to get hit with it. People bag on it but it has taken the life of many. Yep. It's a life taker and a heart breaker. The ones I shot with it are still dead.....until they become undead. |
|
Quoted:
It does what it was (AFAIK) designed to do - penetrate various levels of personal body armor at various ranges. It was not designed to do ANYTHING to personal body armor. The PRIMARY design characteristic was to penetrate a 3mm mild steel plate at 600m. This requires the bullet to travel point-first for the whole 600m, which the M193 bullet can't do. So the bullet was designed with a steel insert (NOT a "penetrator") that moved the center of mass rearward, which made the bullet remain stable for a longer flight. M193 will penetrate that much steel easily. IF it hits it point first. But the 55gr bullet doesn't maintain stability for a long enough flight to do the job, thus the newer bullet. Quoted:t seems to be competitively priced, and it's "mil-spec," but features-wise it doesn't seem to be good at anything:
The SS109 projectile WILL fragment reliably within a specific range of velocities. Being a MILITARY round, it is not supposed to expand. It is "battle rifle" accurate, with something like 4MOA at 300m (dispersal increases with range-it's typically much better than 4MOA through a good barrel at 100m). And it is quite affordable to the intended user. It's been doing its job since the 1980s without an overwhelming reason to replace it, though new missions have arisen that call for specialized rounds that do different things.
-Fragments well? Not really -Expands? No -Accurate? Not so much -Cheap? Not particularly I've been lurking in the Ammo forum for a while, and I've never heard anyone sing its praises in any way at all. Am I missing something? |
|
Quoted:
This requires the bullet to travel point-first for the whole 600m, which the M193 bullet can't do. WTF? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
This requires the bullet to travel point-first for the whole 600m, which the M193 bullet can't do. WTF? If the bullet hits the 3mm plate sideways at 600m, it will make a substantial dent, but not penetrate. Point-first is essential to starting the penetration because it focuses the impact on a smaller area, concentrating the energy in the smallest possible space. The M193 bullet can go 600m with enough energy to go through 3mm of the designated hardness steel, but because it doesn't always get to 600m point first, it doesn't always penetrate the plate. Edited to enhance and clarify. |
|
As mentioned earlier M855 was originally adopted as a machinegun round. The military was weary of replacing the 7.62 NATO load, and wanted the replacement round to be capable of penetrating steel helmets out to 600m. FN added the steel penetrator to enhance long range penetration on thin steel. It may have also provided enhanced penetration on Cold War era soviet body armor. M855 will penerate steel helmets at greater ranger than 7.62 NATO. All of these points are moot on the modern battlefield, and certanly for modern tactical/SD usage. What M855 does do better than M193 is that it will penetrate some NIJ Level III armor that will stop M193, and Non-AP 7.62 NATO (308 Win). LE agencies issuing level III armor or people considering purchasing Level III armor for rifle protection should be aware of this if M855 is a potential threat.
Terminal performance of M855 has been dicussed on numerous occasions. M855 suffers the same problem as M193 only to an even greater extent. Although they are both capable of producing devastating wounds if they yaw and fragment they are both very sensitive to AOA (angle of attack), and both exhibit significant sensitivity to fleet yaw (the angle of the bullet as it exits the barrel). Fleet yaw is barrel, and load dependent so two different guns firing the same load can result in different terminal performance results. OTM bullets are less sensitive to AOA, and fleet yaw issues so are a much better choice when terminal performance is a primary concern over barrier penetration. If one is willing to give up some terminal performance for barrier blindness then we need to look to bonded SP loads like 55/62gr TBBC. The fact of the matter is that .223/5.56 can be very effective with the right loads, but because of limitations in bullet weight, and energy we can't expect one load to be able to cover such a broad spectrum of performance requirements. By the way I would not want to get shot with a Gamo pellet gun either, but it would not be my first choice for SD usage. |
|
855 comes with green paint on the tip, which looks much cooler than the 193 which has no paint on its tip.
The only round better would be the 856, which comes with red/orange paint on its tip, resulting in a whole new level of coolness. This coolness is brought to its greatest fruition when 855 or 856 is loaded via belts or clear/translucent magazines. Once the colored tip is obscured by a traditional magazine, the 855/6 loses all effectiveness and virtually becomes a blank (non-painted) round, and is only effective upon reload when the operator sees the first two colored tips in the fresh mag. Phenomena such as the dust covers on polymer magazines has all but eliminated this two-round effectiveness. |
|
So the ultimate fix for m193 is to paint its tips black so that in at least coolness terms it would be the most effective?
|
|
Quoted:
So the ultimate fix for m193 is to paint its tips black so that in at least coolness terms it would be the most effective? You know, in all seriousness I'd probably pay a cent a round more for some sweet black tipped M193 |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
This requires the bullet to travel point-first for the whole 600m, which the M193 bullet can't do. WTF? So the 55gr destabilizes between 500m and 600m? |
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This requires the bullet to travel point-first for the whole 600m, which the M193 bullet can't do. WTF? So the 55gr destabilizes between 500m and 600m? Heres' how I understand how this works: The 55gr FMJ bullet begins to yaw earlier in its flight than the SS109 projectile because its center of mass if farther forward. This causes the tip to describe a circle of increasing diameter while in flight-a corkscrew if you will. While all spitzer bullets do this to some extent, the short, stubby nature of the 55gr FMJ makes the effect more pronounced. Depending on how symmetrical the bullet is, and how concentric its axes (mass and OD in particular) are, this corkscrew effect will be greater or lesser. The SS109, with its center of mass farther aft, tends to yaw less, describing a smaller diameter at any particular distance than the 55gr bullet does. As I said, if the M193 bullet is still pretty much point first, it will go through the specified steel plate, but it's not stable enough at extended ranges do do the job reliably. |
|
I understand what you're trying to express. However, based on my experience at qual ranges in the Marine Corps, the projectile would have to seriously destabilze between 500 and 600 in order to produce the erratic performance you're describing. There were only neat little .round 223cal holes on all the targets I pulled at 500. I've pulled many, many targets in my day (qual being shot with A2s and M193).
|
|
Quoted:
I understand what you're trying to express. However, based on my experience at qual ranges in the Marine Corps, the projectile would have to seriously destabilze between 500 and 600 in order to produce the erratic performance you're describing. There were only neat little .round 223cal holes on all the targets I pulled at 500. I've pulled many, many targets in my day (qual being shot with A2s and M193). No argument here, but that is the history of the round as i understand it. |
|
I have different lots of SS109 and M855
Santa Barbra SS109 93 ZV NATO SS109 00 IMI M855 98 LC M855 98 LC M855 02 Win M855 89 ADCOM M855 99 The 98 Lake City shot great But the 2002 Lake City that came in seald cans has alot of flyers compared to the 98 lot The Santa Barrbra SS109 is very accurate and one of my all time favorites The ZV NATO SS109 is awesome as well Ltc Chuck S. tested this ammo before I bought alot IMI M855 98 is GTG and one of my favorites ADCOM M855 I gave away Looked good and all but my M4`s didnt group it well at all I would feel well armed useing Quality M855 or SS109 But I still rather shoot the 77gr SMK |
|
Quoted:
855 comes with green paint on the tip, which looks much cooler than the 193 which has no paint on its tip. The only round better would be the 856, which comes with red/orange paint on its tip, resulting in a whole new level of coolness. This coolness is brought to its greatest fruition when 855 or 856 is loaded via belts or clear/translucent magazines. Once the colored tip is obscured by a traditional magazine, the 855/6 loses all effectiveness and virtually becomes a blank (non-painted) round, and is only effective upon reload when the operator sees the first two colored tips in the fresh mag. Phenomena such as the dust covers on polymer magazines has all but eliminated this two-round effectiveness. Can't the HSLD operator look thru the ejection port when the port door is open to re-establish that effectiveness, and do it every two rounds, so that they all are effective. Of course this can be problematic during an actual fire fight, having to turn the rifle and glance into the port every other round. Perhaps if a righty shooter shot a lefty upper, he could use his left eye to keep an eye on the tip color as he fires. I better start studying this phenomenon more... |
|
Quoted:
I have different lots of SS109 and M855 Santa Barbra SS109 93 ZV NATO SS109 00 IMI M855 98 LC M855 98 LC M855 02 Win M855 89 ADCOM M855 99 The 98 Lake City shot great But the 2002 Lake City that came in seald cans has alot of flyers compared to the 98 lot The Santa Barrbra SS109 is very accurate and one of my all time favorites The ZV NATO SS109 is awesome as well Ltc Chuck S. tested this ammo before I bought alot IMI M855 98 is GTG and one of my favorites ADCOM M855 I gave away Looked good and all but my M4`s didnt group it well at all I would feel well armed useing Quality M855 or SS109 But I still rather shoot the 77gr SMK I would feel very confident with PPU M855, especially in my SPR in which i can get 1 moa accurracy, in 5 shot groups. Good to see it has come back in stock in many places. |
|
Folks, in this day and age, these issues are well known and fully researched; there are good reasons why various segments of the U.S. military have moved away from M855 to the Mk262 Mod1, Optimal/"brown tip", Mk318 Mod 0, and the M855A1 EPR: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf.
|
|
DocGKR,
Care to to address the assertion that M193 stops traveling tip forward after 600 yards? |
|
The M855 fixes problems particularly well IMO. I haven't seen anything yet that hasn't been incapacitated to some degree by it. If you were to get shot by one for example, you wouldn't be thinking "oh it didn't fragment or tumble.....i'll be fine" it would be more along the lines of "holy sh*tsauce I just got shot! ", situation ended (and if not, double tap = best friend).
|
|
Quoted:
The M855 fixes problems particularly well IMO. I haven't seen anything yet that hasn't been incapacitated to some degree by it. If you were to get shot by one for example, you wouldn't be thinking "oh it didn't fragment or tumble.....i'll be fine" it would be more along the lines of "holy sh*tsauce I just got shot! ", situation ended (and if not, double tap = best friend). If the guy is stopping because he thinks "holy sh*tsauce I just got shot! " your ammunition is not reliably doing it's job. What is the guy is on PCP, Khat, Hashish, or just adrenalin, and he has no such thoughts. What if his only thought is directed at killing you or one of your loved ones at all costs. What if the only way to stop such a person is to turn his heart, and lungs to jello. If your logic is correct then .22 LR would be perfectly fine for every SD situation. After all who would want to be shot with a .22...not me or any other sane person. If all people were sane there wouldn't be much need for such discussions. |
|
Quoted:
Folks, in this day and age, these issues are well known and fully researched; there are good reasons why various segments of the U.S. military have moved away from M855 to the Mk262 Mod1, Optimal/"brown tip", Mk318 Mod 0, and the M855A1 EPR: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. Understood –– my question is, why haven't civilians moved away from it as well? |
|
The better question is why civilians wanted to use M855 at all, as it was not a good choice for most personal defense or LE uses and far better options were available to those individuals not restricted by the archaic and illogical Hague Convention guidelines: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Folks, in this day and age, these issues are well known and fully researched; there are good reasons why various segments of the U.S. military have moved away from M855 to the Mk262 Mod1, Optimal/"brown tip", Mk318 Mod 0, and the M855A1 EPR: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. Understood –– my question is, why haven't civilians moved away from it as well? Probably because we cant buy "brown tip" and M855A1EPR right now. I'm sure that if the latest in technology was available to the shooting masses it would easily out sell M855 & XM193, however it is being bought up (rightfully so) by the military right now. When it becomes readily available (able to buy in the case amount) it will probably become the new goto round. Like the Doc said, there are better choices out there available to the civilian market, but for the sake of target practice I would rather shoot a case of XM193 or M855 than a case of TAP or Speer Gold Dot. |
|
I'm a simple man.
If the .mil thought M193 was better than M855, they would have kept it. M855 has been deading bad guys for many years now. |
|
Quoted:
The better question is why civilians wanted to use M855 at all, as it was not a good choice for most personal defense or LE uses and far better options were available to those individuals not restricted by the archaic and illogical Hague Convention guidelines: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881. I have lots of M855/SS109 and M193 I use it at the range for practice only!!! cant afford to practice all the time with MK262/75 TAP I Have a Case of 75gr TAP But my GO TO is loaded up with Black Hills white box 77gr 5.56mm or what some here call MK262 I also notice the POI is close to the same from 50Y to 220y M855/SS109 & 75/77 gr Talking combat accuracy here. Aimpoint & Eotech is zero at 50Y still can hit Tin Cans at the berm 220Y once I spot the shine with my old eyes |
|
it prints closer POI to 68grain and heavier bullets than M193... therefore making better practice ammo if you plan to use the heavy stuff for SHTF.
|
|
Civilians go to it because a) it's cheap, and b) there's a mindset among a lot of folks that if the military is using it, it must be the best gee-whiz technology out there. If people were better educated (like most of the folks who frequent this forum are) AND the heavy OTM's were as available and cheap as M855, people would probably be using those rounds in greater numbers.
|
|
Quoted:
I'm sorry but what is OTM? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Open Tip Match sotra like HP but there is a solid lead core some HP have the hole going into the lead core |
|
Quoted: The better question is why civilians wanted to use M855 at all, as it was not a good choice for most personal defense or LE uses and far better options were available to those individuals not restricted by the archaic and illogical Hague Convention guidelines: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881. I use Prvi M855 to plink with. I can buy it for thirty cents a round, and it goes 'bang' every time. It groups well enough to train with. I have Hornady 75g BTHP Match rounds for SD. I know exactly what the POI shift is in my go-to carbine. I know the rule is "Practice how you play." I'd love to be able to practice with the Hornady stuff - can't afford it. Concessions must be made.
|
|
Well it does kill people pretty well. The problem is that each time you kill someone it is a singular event, some people are very resistant and keep fighting even after they receive a fatal wound, and some people just lay down and die. You get freak incidents of guys taking multiple round of everything up to and including 50 cal and I know of a guy who took a unarmed RPG to the chest who continued to fight till he bleed to death.
Why you hear so much about M855 not working is it is by far the round in widest usage, it is also normally the only round you see used in close combat since the 7.62 and larger guns are normally left outside of the building on an entry and in those circumstance you are more likly to see the effects of your fire than if you are pounding away at a distant target. |
|
M855 & XM855 is more accurate out of my RRA carbine @100 yds than any 55gr pill I've tried.
|
|
Quoted:
Folks, in this day and age, these issues are well known and fully researched; there are good reasons why various segments of the U.S. military have moved away from M855 to the Mk262 Mod1, Optimal/"brown tip", Mk318 Mod 0, and the M855A1 EPR: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. The long-range stabilization is why practically everyone I know in the 3-gun community shoots at least a 75 grain bullet, more often 77 grain (and then we have the .30 cal guys). I stocked up on 55 gr. projectiles because they were cheap, but they're not going to help me win any matches where the targets are at 400m and more. We're not putting hurt on Hadji, but the idea is the same: nail what you're aiming at, as far off as possible. |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.