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Posted: 1/19/2006 7:23:54 AM EDT
I know that Blackwater stands by the Bushmaster name but do they issue thier contractors with bushmaster weapons?

If they do does anyone know if Simple Dynamics rifle used in the battle of Najaf (spell?) was a Bushmaster. Everything he had on that weapon with the exception of the scope is offered by Bushmaster. So I was wondering if he was using a bushy.

If Blackwater is using Bushmasters do they hold up well to the conditions in Iraq or in combat itself?

I am wondering if my Bushmasters really are as rugged and accurate as an issue FN or Colt

Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:27:08 AM EDT
Nothing but Bushmaster
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:28:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 7:28:16 AM EDT by SHIVAN]
Everything I saw in the Armorer's work area, @ Blackwater, was Bushie.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:30:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 7:31:07 AM EDT by bloodmoon]

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Everything I saw in the Armorer's work area, @ Blackwater, was Bushie.

So was Simple Dynamic's precision AR a Bushmaster also? The rifle he used in Najaf I think
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:33:02 AM EDT
Does Bushmaster make select fire models for Blackwater? Is Blackwater title II? Or are the contractors running semi guns?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:38:11 AM EDT
Bushmaster semi's.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:43:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 7:47:29 AM EDT by bloodmoon]

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Bushmaster semi's.

Holy sh8t they are only running semi's. I thought they would at least be issued weapons with a three shot burst. In the military it seems that the instructors like to push accurate semi fire or quick two round double taps. But if I was going into combat I would hope to be issued a select fire weapon to be able to break contact or repel a group assualt
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:44:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 7:45:43 AM EDT by Variablebinary]
Are you out of your freaking head. No operator in his right mind would use a Bushmaster. They dont use the correct extractor spring (Black not blue), or have F marked FSB. Those things are vital to anyone that uses their AR15 for anything other than the range
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:45:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Are you out of your freaking head. No operator in his right mind would use a Bushmaster. They dont use the correct extractor spring (Black not blue), or have F marked FSB. Those things are vital to anyone that uses their AR15 for anything other than the range



Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:45:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 6:15:54 PM EDT by FedDC]
They use what is spec'd in the contract they are working. If the contract says AK, they use an AK.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:51:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:
If Blackwater is using Bushmasters do they hold up well to the conditions in Iraq or in combat itself?

I am wondering if my Bushmasters really are as rugged and accurate as an issue FN or Colt




Great question. I have a fairly new 14.5 Izzy A3 that has never misfired after over 1,500 plus rounds. Still, I hear things from Colt enthusiasts like Bushmasters can't compete under harsh combat scenarios, which my gun has not been through (yet, anyway). First hand feedback from those who have been there and done that on Blackwater's behalf would be great.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:56:04 AM EDT
For the record, Blackwater is not the only security contracting company in Iraq. Although they do get the highest gucci level jobs and most money (not to say they don't earn it...they're badass). I'm on an Army exchange tour in Bagdad and have had my ass covered by PSD teams from KBR and Aegis subcontractors among others.

Being a gun nerd I always compare my issued toys with theirs. I have seen many Bushmaster semis. (and no complaints about extractor springs) Usually with short bbls for convoy work. It all seems very random leaning toward personal preference especially with optics and handguns. And no range queens. Every weapon is beat to hell and has a thin layer of moon dust. Beautiful!
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:56:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 6:16:38 PM EDT by FedDC]
.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 8:02:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FlyNavy:
For the record, Blackwater is not the only security contracting company in Iraq. Although they do get the highest gucci level jobs and most money (not to say they don't earn it...they're badass). I'm on an Army exchange tour in Bagdad and have had my ass covered by PSD teams from KBR and Aegis subcontractors among others.

Being a gun nerd I always compare my issued toys with theirs. I have seen many Bushmaster semis. (and no complaints about extractor springs) Usually with short bbls for convoy work. It all seems very random leaning toward personal preference especially with optics and handguns. And no range queens. Every weapon is beat to hell and has a thin layer of moon dust. Beautiful!




Big + 1 to the #s of contractors. Lots of firms doing good work with all kinds of gear. Brits are a good example. We worked a LOT with some brit PSDs that used HKs, both MP5s and 53s. Not to mention the Global guys with AKs and CZ 58s. The CZ actually seemed like a great rifle if a bit crude. At least it has a piston system
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 8:42:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Bushmaster semi's.



That cannot possibly be the case, as Bushmaster (and Stag) also makes the base components for the Ferfrans SOAR used by the philipine special forces/police units.

I'm pretty sure Blackwater would have gotten their hands on the Bushies with fun switches on them.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 8:55:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 2:39:34 PM EDT by thebomber]
My instructors at BW told us they were issued semi Bushmasters with ARMS RISs SIRs for their tours in both Afganistan and Iraq. When I went to the Armory, I was shown a room with at least 100 NIB Bushmasters. That doesn't count all of the ones issued and in the vaults. Glock are the issued sidearms and there were stacks of those also.


Bomber
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 8:58:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 8:59:08 AM EDT by JohnTheTexican]

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Are you out of your freaking head. No operator in his right mind would use a Bushmaster. They dont use the correct extractor spring (Black not blue), or have F marked FSB. Those things are vital to anyone that uses their AR15 for anything other than the range



Not to mention the non-spec receiver extrension. What are you supposed to do if you need to install a SOPMOD in the middle of a firefight? Call an armorer? Give me a break.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:05:09 AM EDT
Yep, Bushmaster rilfes and GLOCK 9mms. One of my friends from high school is over there with Blackwater right now.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:15:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Are you out of your freaking head. No operator in his right mind would use a Bushmaster. They dont use the correct extractor spring (Black not blue), or have F marked FSB. Those things are vital to anyone that uses their AR15 for anything other than the range



Not to mention the non-spec receiver extrension. What are you supposed to do if you need to install a SOPMOD in the middle of a firefight? Call an armorer? Give me a break.



Under some circumstances these may be valid points, but how can anyone deny the effectiveness and reliability of the guns if they are standard issue with Blackwater? They would have switched to something else by now.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:23:29 AM EDT
Ya'll are too funny.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:34:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 9:35:26 AM EDT by redfisher]
I have a hard time believing some die-hard, lifetime-operators would go with "whatever the bossman is givin' them"


Not all are going to be Colt guys, but I'd bet a fair amount are.


Especially when your life really depended on it.


eta: I think that cat goes by Simply Dymanic, FWIW
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:41:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:51:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Are you out of your freaking head. No operator in his right mind would use a Bushmaster. They dont use the correct extractor spring (Black not blue), or have F marked FSB. Those things are vital to anyone that uses their AR15 for anything other than the range





You are assuming of course that the armorers at BW don't know this, and or make up for it by upgrading select components.

Since they teach the "Bushmaster Armorer" course, and most of them are former service members, I suspect they know what they're doing.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:53:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 9:55:11 AM EDT by SSeric02]

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Are you out of your freaking head. No operator in his right mind would use a Bushmaster. They dont use the correct extractor spring (Black not blue), or have F marked FSB. Those things are vital to anyone that uses their AR15 for anything other than the range






+1. I work for another company that does security contracting among other things in Afghanistan. We use select fire Bushmaster M4s.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:54:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By safetyhit:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Are you out of your freaking head. No operator in his right mind would use a Bushmaster. They dont use the correct extractor spring (Black not blue), or have F marked FSB. Those things are vital to anyone that uses their AR15 for anything other than the range



Not to mention the non-spec receiver extrension. What are you supposed to do if you need to install a SOPMOD in the middle of a firefight? Call an armorer? Give me a break.



Under some circumstances these may be valid points, but how can anyone deny the effectiveness and reliability of the guns if they are standard issue with Blackwater? They would have switched to something else by now.



I'm reasonably certain that both of those posts were poking fun at the Kool Aid crew and were not meant to be taken entirely seriously.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:58:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 2:35:21 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Anybody who has ever visited Blackwater knows they issue and promote Bushmaster, Glock, and apparently now Sig. Individual contracts overseas might be different, but for the training center itself that is all that you will see. I was just down there last weekend and they even sell “Blackwater” labeled Bushmaster’s and Sig’s. I guess the Blackwater guys just aren't as "High Speed" as the ARFCOM kool Aid drinkers.

Variablebinary is joking by the way.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 10:00:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 10:01:45 AM EDT by safetyhit]

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By safetyhit:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Are you out of your freaking head. No operator in his right mind would use a Bushmaster. They dont use the correct extractor spring (Black not blue), or have F marked FSB. Those things are vital to anyone that uses their AR15 for anything other than the range



Not to mention the non-spec receiver extrension. What are you supposed to do if you need to install a SOPMOD in the middle of a firefight? Call an armorer? Give me a break.



Under some circumstances these may be valid points, but how can anyone deny the effectiveness and reliability of the guns if they are standard issue with Blackwater? They would have switched to something else by now.



I'm reasonably certain that both of those posts were poking fun at the Kool Aid crew and were not meant to be taken entirely seriously.



I was also playing along (I know spring color is irrelevant). Perhaps I pushed it a bit too far. Easy to draw fire from them here, though.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 10:21:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 6:17:31 PM EDT by FedDC]
.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 10:25:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By safetyhit:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By safetyhit:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Are you out of your freaking head. No operator in his right mind would use a Bushmaster. They dont use the correct extractor spring (Black not blue), or have F marked FSB. Those things are vital to anyone that uses their AR15 for anything other than the range



Not to mention the non-spec receiver extrension. What are you supposed to do if you need to install a SOPMOD in the middle of a firefight? Call an armorer? Give me a break.



Under some circumstances these may be valid points, but how can anyone deny the effectiveness and reliability of the guns if they are standard issue with Blackwater? They would have switched to something else by now.



I'm reasonably certain that both of those posts were poking fun at the Kool Aid crew and were not meant to be taken entirely seriously.



I was also playing along (I know spring color is irrelevant). Perhaps I pushed it a bit too far. Easy to draw fire from them here, though.





What if there aren't really any of "them"? What if it's really all just us pretending to be them? Like a terrorist cell made up entirely of FBI, ATF & CIA infiltrators?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 10:35:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 10:35:48 AM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By FedDC:
Remember, conracts are not all about quality gear, if you as a contracting officer can save a few bucks and still more or less get the same thing, you do it... Lowest cost gets the bid.



Except in the case of Colt, of course. Their .gov contract is different than all the rest.

Link Posted: 1/19/2006 10:51:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:
What if there aren't really any of "them"? What if it's really all just us pretending to be them? Like a terrorist cell made up entirely of FBI, ATF & CIA infiltrators?



You and I both know they are really there, in strong numbers. Not to hijack the thread, but still hope for some first hand Bushmaster combat revalations. Are things like dust more of an issue with them as opposed to Colts, any issues with long term rapid fire, etc...?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 10:59:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 11:01:35 AM EDT by SSeric02]

Originally Posted By safetyhit:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:
What if there aren't really any of "them"? What if it's really all just us pretending to be them? Like a terrorist cell made up entirely of FBI, ATF & CIA infiltrators?



You and I both know they are really there, in strong numbers. Not to hijack the thread, but still hope for some first hand Bushmaster combat revalations. Are things like dust more of an issue with them as opposed to Colts, any issues with long term rapid fire, etc...?



Mine works fine the little I've fired it(keeps fingers crossed). The mechanical zero for the sights was dead on POA/POI suprisingly. Shot just as well as any M16A2 or M4 I shot on active duty. Only malfunctions came as a result of a mag with severely bent feedlips.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 11:10:50 AM EDT
Gordon Freeman you'd be wrong. the Blackwater rifles are semi's. it has something to do with import/export laws. automatic fire is for lazy rifleman. it has its place in the doctrine but its not a dealbreaker. in three trips to the sand including 1as a contractor i never felt i want to, or needed to use the go-fast switch. its really not that necessary.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:31:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thebomber:
My instructors at BW told us they were issued semi Bushmasters with ARMS RISs for their tours in both Afganistan and Iraq. When I went to the Armory, I was shown a room with at least 100 NIB Bushmasters. That doesn't count all of the ones issued and in the vaults. Glock are the issued sidearms and there were stacks of those also.


Bomber



Not trying to draw fire here, but you've combined two products into one.

ARMS makes a SIR
and
Knights Armament makes a RIS

which one do they use?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:33:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bullseye_Doc_Holiday:

Originally Posted By thebomber:
My instructors at BW told us they were issued semi Bushmasters with ARMS RISs for their tours in both Afganistan and Iraq. When I went to the Armory, I was shown a room with at least 100 NIB Bushmasters. That doesn't count all of the ones issued and in the vaults. Glock are the issued sidearms and there were stacks of those also.


Bomber



Not trying to draw fire here, but you've combined two products into one.

ARMS makes a SIR
and
Knights Armament makes a RIS

which one do they use?



ARMS SIR
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:38:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bullseye_Doc_Holiday:

Originally Posted By thebomber:
My instructors at BW told us they were issued semi Bushmasters with ARMS RISs for their tours in both Afganistan and Iraq. When I went to the Armory, I was shown a room with at least 100 NIB Bushmasters. That doesn't count all of the ones issued and in the vaults. Glock are the issued sidearms and there were stacks of those also.


Bomber



Not trying to draw fire here, but you've combined two products into one.

ARMS makes a SIR
and
Knights Armament makes a RIS

which one do they use?



Mea culpa....you're right I definitely meant to say SIR


Thanks for pointing it out.

Bomber
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:44:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Anybody who has ever visited Blackwater knows they issue and promote Bushmaster, Glock, and apparently now Sig. Individual contracts overseas might be different, but for the training center itself that is all that you will see. I was just down there last weekend and they even sell “Blackwater” labeled Bushmaster’s and Sig’s. I guess the Blackwater guys just aren't as "High Speed" as the ARFCOM kool Aid drinkers.

Variablebinary is joking by the way.



Did not know they were on a SIG kick. All they offered us were G17's and very few G19's.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:04:49 PM EDT
Bushmaster rifles and Glock 17 pistols are what they use, according to the last time I was there for 5-Day Tactical Pistol I in Sept '05. I'll confirm this again when I run my stock Bushmaster 16" M4A3 through their 5-Day Carbine Operators course there next week. I've never had a failure on that weapon (except for a failure of a magazine using a MagPul Follower, which got replaced with a standard USGI green follower with no further problems), so I'm confident it will work fine.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:06:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 3:27:33 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Anybody who has ever visited Blackwater knows they issue and promote Bushmaster, Glock, and apparently now Sig. Individual contracts overseas might be different, but for the training center itself that is all that you will see. I was just down there last weekend and they even sell “Blackwater” labeled Bushmaster’s and Sig’s. I guess the Blackwater guys just aren't as "High Speed" as the ARFCOM kool Aid drinkers.

Variablebinary is joking by the way.



Did not know they were on a SIG kick. All they offered us were G17's and very few G19's.



I did not know it either, until I saw one of these at a local gunshop:

The SIG SAUER P226 Blackwater Special Edition
www.sigarms.com/products/classicfullsize-models.asp?product_id=262#

I also noticed they are offering a SIG SAUER pistol armorers course:
www.blackwaterusa.com/images/pdf/Sig%20Sauer%20Armorer.pdf

Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:25:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 6:18:43 PM EDT by FedDC]
.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:52:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:58:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Everything I saw in the Armorer's work area, @ Blackwater, was Bushie.

So was Simple Dynamic's precision AR a Bushmaster also? The rifle he used in Najaf I think



YES Bushy
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:05:41 PM EDT
SimplyDynamic, what does the text of the photo say, out of curiosity?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:11:38 PM EDT
I was at Blackwater in March/April 2005...

The only AR type weapon observed in the (rather large) arms room and armorers shop was Bushmaster. The Bushies I looked at were all semi-auto. The armorer told me that the ATF was a regular visitor and specifically checked to insure everything was semi-only.

The armorer's shop had me reaching for some tissue and lotion:

Storage lockers with drawers full of Bushie uppers...barrels...stocks....etc.
Another upright tool chest (ala Mack/Snap-On/Husky/etc) with a drawers full of ARMS S.I.R.'s waiting to be installed...Another chest with drawers full of PRI flip-up front sights...ARMS BUIS'...
springs...pins..detents...slings...etc


Whatever you needed, it was in there.....

Ok, I have to go have a smoke....
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:23:02 PM EDT
interesting topic. Also interesting that they do not have FA's, SBR's etc, as I see alot of pics of contractors with them in Iraq. IT is not like they have laws governing them over there.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:27:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 5:40:54 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By yekimak:
interesting topic. Also interesting that they do not have FA's, SBR's etc, as I see alot of pics of contractors with them in Iraq. IT is not like they have laws governing them over there.



They have SBR's.

11.5" Bushmasters.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:53:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By FedDC:
Remember, conracts are not all about quality gear, if you as a contracting officer can save a few bucks and still more or less get the same thing, you do it... Lowest cost gets the bid.



Except in the case of Colt, of course. Their .gov contract is different than all the rest.



Link Posted: 1/19/2006 5:10:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIMPLYDYNAMIC:

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Everything I saw in the Armorer's work area, @ Blackwater, was Bushie.

So was Simple Dynamic's precision AR a Bushmaster also? The rifle he used in Najaf I think



YES Bushy
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/HaleyM16.jpg

Thanks for offering up that info. I just have one other question if you dont mind. Is it an Hbar or is it a government barrel. If you can give that info thanks I really want to build a rifle like that one.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 5:40:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 6:19:23 PM EDT by FedDC]
.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 5:45:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 6:34:27 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By FedDC:
Remember, conracts are not all about quality gear, if you as a contracting officer can save a few bucks and still more or less get the same thing, you do it... Lowest cost gets the bid.



If your inferring they only use Bushmasters because they are cheaper priced, I would find that hard to believe. Blackwater has had a relationship with Bushmaster for years. Long before the PSD world expanded like it did after the Iraq invasion. Having met numerous Blackwater staff & instructors they seem to have great faith in Bushmaster. Enough to take them into harms way without a moment’s hesitation. These are not used car salesman either. They would call a spade a spade if they were not happy with them. All I have ever heard is praise.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 5:48:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Are you out of your freaking head. No operator in his right mind would use a Bushmaster. They dont use the correct extractor spring (Black not blue), or have F marked FSB. Those things are vital to anyone that uses their AR15 for anything other than the range



BWAHAHAHA!!! This guy used the word "operator"!!!
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