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Posted: 8/31/2004 7:29:59 AM EST
Does anyone use a 50 yd zero as described on the Maryland AR15 Shooters Form?

I went with the 50 yrd zero because of tables I saw listing trajectories for various loads, (XM193, Q3131A, 77 gr OTM), and all loads stayed within 2 inches of point of aim.

I tried per their instructions, which calls for the long range apature to be used. When I finish and switch to the large apature, the point of impact drastically changes.

Nearly all of my shooting will be within 200 yards, and the majority will be well within 100 yards.

At what distance is everyone sighting in their rifles and carbines?
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:35:46 AM EST
Both my Aimpoint equipped M4s are zeroed with the 50 yard Santose IBZ.

Mike
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:45:08 AM EST
Mine are both zeroed at 50yards. I just used the short range(0-200) on my #40 when I zeroed it because thats the one I use the most anyway when I use the irons so i couldn't tell ya if there is a differance between it and the small one. Also I have a 1-4x20 on one of the guns, that scope is zeroed at 50 too.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:52:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By B-trash:
Does anyone use a 50 yd zero as described on the Maryland AR15 Shooters Form?

I went with the 50 yrd zero because of tables I saw listing trajectories for various loads, (XM193, Q3131A, 77 gr OTM), and all loads stayed within 2 inches of point of aim.

I tried per their instructions, which calls for the long range apature to be used. When I finish and switch to the large apature, the point of impact drastically changes.

Nearly all of my shooting will be within 200 yards, and the majority will be well within 100 yards.

At what distance is everyone sighting in their rifles and carbines?



How is it changing when you switch to the large apature?

In the Corps we 1,000 inches. Now I believe they use 36 yards. I believe the 50 yards is more practical and is what I use. I don't use the large apature.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:02:53 AM EST
Innocent_bystander keeps plugging this liberal Santose notion. I refuse to budge!
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:03:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 8:10:08 AM EST by Tweak]
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:13:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By B-trash:
Does anyone use a 50 yd zero as described on the Maryland AR15 Shooters Form?


I think most of us do - there are a few holdouts (like Tweak).

For a carbine it makes alot of sense.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:17:24 AM EST
Yep.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:21:35 AM EST
Oh yeah, 50 it is.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:26:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 8:26:41 AM EST by Yojimbo]
I also use the IBZ/50 yard zero for my carbine and it works great, just as advertised.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:27:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By markm:
Innocent_bystander keeps plugging this liberal Santose notion. I refuse to budge!



I'm not sure how well it works with that Garand you use for CQB.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:12:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:33:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:

Originally Posted By markm:
Innocent_bystander keeps plugging this liberal Santose notion. I refuse to budge!



I'm not sure how well it works with that Garand you use for CQB.



I'm using the 800 yard zero for my CQB Garand!
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 10:53:48 AM EST
50 Yard zero on my EOtech and BUIS, and using the large aperture only because of the MOA change between apertures. The thing to keep in mind is that you will have to use offset aiming for 25 yards and closer (about a 2" offset), but this is routinely taught and drilled in most tactical carbine schools. We mandate the 50 yard zero for our folks.

It really depends on what you use your weapon for. If you are shooting high power or routinely shooting at longer distances, then use a different zero method. 50 yards allows one to shoot surgically and accurately at CQB ranges (if one is rescuing hostages, a missed round is never acceptable), and still have COM accuracy for fast shots out to150-200. An additional consideration is that you are rarely going to have a legal justification for engaging with an unmagnified optic or irons past about 100 yards, and we strongly discourage, if not forbid people from taking shots they can't make. There is a vast differerence between self-defense or law enforcement use of a carbine and the military application of the same or similar system. For us, minimum Qual scores on the rifle must be above 90 percent, with five scored failure to stop shots (must be in a 3' X 5" box) and having a 50 yard zero is one of the only ways to do that.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:01:18 AM EST
Yes. Aimpoint and irons are set for the 50-yard BZ using XM193. Under that I simply aim 1-2 inches higher. 50 yards and beyond I get a nice flat trajectory out to about 200-250 yards.

Beyond that I get significant drop.

But with my 14.5" barrel I really should use something else to engage targets that far away anyways due to the laws of fragmentation.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 1:28:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 1:46:47 PM EST
Chuck,

Quick question.

When using a BUIS with no elevation adjustment and an A2 aperture, which aperture should I use for my 50 yard zero?
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 1:55:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 1:58:49 PM EST
Aimpoint & #40 @ 50y. That same plane aper. sure takes the worry out of POI changes.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:00:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Chuck,

Quick question.

When using a BUIS with no elevation adjustment and an A2 aperture, which aperture should I use for my 50 yard zero?



I am not Chuck, but am runnign a LaRue BUIS as well. I zero my small aperature...


C4



I'm doing the same with my LaRue.

Unless Chuck tells me otherwise.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:56:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 3:51:01 PM EST
I agree with Natez. Our EOTechs and BUIS are 50 yd. zero. I also require 3 qualification scores above 90 %. But you do have to train for approximately a 2 inch offset at 25 yds. and in.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 3:53:33 PM EST
Yes, I do for 3-gun matches with my Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 4:15:39 PM EST
To all who so quickly responded, thanks for the imput.

I was getting about a 2.5 - 3 inch difference in elevation when flipping back to the large aperature. This is a fixed handled 16" carbine. Individually owned, not a Dept weapon. Tried gooseneck mount for Aimpoint, wasn't too keen on the setup. Will probably obtain a same plane aperature.

Someone posted trajectory charts in 25 yd incriments using the 50 yd zero. On paper it looked like a great idea. From reading the responses, in practice it seems to still be a great idea.

Once again, Thanks,

Beat Trash
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 4:19:05 PM EST
Aimpoint ML2 and ARMS #40 both zeroed at 50 yards here.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 4:26:58 PM EST
Everything 50 except subgun.By the way 50yd zero has been most accommodating at local run and guns much more than anything else ever was.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 4:49:44 PM EST
Is Ashley the only same plane aperture source?
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 5:51:57 PM EST
Both of mine have the Ashley rear sight. zero is dead on at 50 yrds. I also shoot at 100 yrds to make sure the windage is on.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 8:58:06 AM EST
Take it with a grain of salt.

I used the 'BalTraj' program to calculate the ballistics of a 14.5" barrel using M193 55gn ammunition and a zero that provided a 50 yard crossover.

Results are posted at:

www.knology.net/~decker/IDPA/M4-M193-14.5-TrajData.htm

BalTraj is free and can be downloaded from www.steyrscout.org/ballisti.htm towards the bottom of the page.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:24:52 PM EST
Hello, does the 50 yard zeroing procedure also good for a 10.5 inch barrel?, with that carbine I usually do 25 to 50 yard shooting.

Thanks,

Norberto
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 2:51:11 PM EST
Santose Zero RULES!
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 3:59:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By rifleduck:
Hello, does the 50 yard zeroing procedure also good for a 10.5 inch barrel?, with that carbine I usually do 25 to 50 yard shooting.

Thanks,

Norberto



It still works well - but the far zero will be shorter than 200M due to the reduced MV. Still produces a good trajectory though.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 4:31:42 PM EST
I do with my Aimpoint. Flat trajectory according to our shooting instructor.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 4:55:43 PM EST
I use the 50yds zero as well.

Link Posted: 9/15/2004 6:36:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2004 6:40:06 PM EST by Boomvang]
50Y - 200M. A great zero. Optics and GG&G MAD BUIS (fine apeture) get zeroed this way. Who cares about a small POI shift with the large apeture? At 25 yards and in don't think it matters.

The MAD is same plane as well.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 2:09:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 3:40:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleduck:
Hello, does the 50 yard zeroing procedure also good for a 10.5 inch barrel?, with that carbine I usually do 25 to 50 yard shooting.

Thanks,

Norberto



Yes, it should work fine. It isn't the barrel length that changes zero, but ther sight radius, and the sight radius is the same on an 11.5", 14.5" and 16"
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:31:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 4:32:16 AM EST by Lancelot]

Originally Posted By Chuck:

liberal Santose notion


Should I take offense?

-- Chuck



Yes. He obviously doesn't know you. Or that you ARE Santose.......
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 5:09:16 AM EST
I've got a 1,000 inch zero, just because that's the distance for the indoor range I have access to.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:12:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 4:27:19 AM EST
I asked this in another thread, but didnt get a response....How do you zero an Aimpoint sitting on the A2 carry handle in an ARMS 16A....? It's zero'd to 50 IBZ currently...I read you will have to rezero after mounting it to the handle...it doesnt co-witness to align the dot and front post...so how do you do it...? Im assuming you fire a few rounds with the irons.then up to the site and fire a few to see where they strike and adjust..?? Is this right..? For info sake its a Bushy 14.5, XM193....thx
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:44:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 10:04:15 AM EST by A_Free_Man]
Way before widespread use of the internet, when I first started shooting AR-15's, the first thing I did was look at various ballistics tables. I had been told that the military used 25 yd zero. But it was easy to figure out that a 50 yd zero was much more practical for normal shooting ranges with irons, 0-250 yds. So, I did the "Santose Zero" before I knew some others were doing the same. And I would be argued with, "that's not what the Army does."

But I was hitting with 50yd zero, and missing in the 150-200 yd range (shooting over target) with the 25 yd zero. Back to 50 yd zero for me.

The question should not be, "Does Anyone use a 50 yard Zero?" but rather, "Why would anyone NOT use a 50 yd Zero?"
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 10:16:52 AM EST
With a 50 yd zero, you can directly hold on a target from 0 to 250 yds and still hit a pie plate. If you shoot man sized ringers, you can go to 300 yds.
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