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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 5/8/2003 3:06:23 AM EDT
Does anybody have any knoledge of the differences in between these two sights? I know one is supposed to be holographic and the other a red dot but I would like to know which one people thinks works better? Which one is made better (more solid). Which one has the clearer rectil? Also I am looking at a NA01 ACOG scope and if I can get a good enough deal on it I think that I am going to go for it. I have heard that the NA01nsn is lacking at close ranges and assume the NA01 will be too. Does anybody know if the clamp that works on the NA01nsn will also work on the NA01? Thanks allot for your help.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 5:16:07 AM EDT
I LOVE Docter Sights. Go to my website to see how much I like 'em. [url]http://home.cfl.rr.com/c3stuff[/url] I make custom mounts for them for special applications, especially Uzi's. Here is one on a registered FA MINI Uzi. [img]http://home.cfl.rr.com/c3stuff/uzi/mini/mini_mk9k_drum.jpg[/img] Now, back to your question. Here is the deal. A company in the UK made the sight called the Firepoint which may still be sold by Brownells. This same company made them for the now defunct Tasco Optima. Now that Tasco is belly up, JP is selling the SAME sight. IMHO, it is crap compared to the Docter sight. They both work the same but the Docter is made MUCH better and is higher quality. Do a search on Docter Optics and you will see that they are made in an old Zeiss plant or they bought Zeiss or something like that. The Firepoint/Optima/JP is made out of all PLASTIC. I have a dealer friend that got 5 Optima's in when they were available and 3 were DOA. I personally have 2 Tasco Optima's. They have problems holding zero. I keep both of them mounted to suppressed Ruger MKII pistols. So that I subject them to the least amount of recoil. They are definitely not as clear as the Docter. I have 2 Docter's and another 2 on the way. The Docter's are made from Aluminum, Stainless, Steel and Glass. Read the following link about some more Docter info: [url]http://www.ccfa.com/reflex.htm[/url] In regards to the NA01, some other experts here I'm sure can help you.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 6:15:04 AM EDT
Where is the best place to purchase a Docter?
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 11:30:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 11:48:44 AM EDT by Green0]
Here is what is confusing me: When they first came put they were marketed as waterproof to 10ft. Now they are no longer marketed as waterproof. What's up with that? If I am out and get rained on I am not going to be able to prevent it from getting wet. and I would like to think that the sight is not going to be damaged. Does anybody have any knoledge of the differences in between these two sights? [b]J-point is polymer and has a plastic lense and no allen screws for locking the ajustments in place- the DR has a Zeiss glass lense and locking screws for ajustments and is constructed of metal[/b] I know one is supposed to be holographic and the other a red dot but I would like to know which one[b]They are both holographic[/b] people thinks works better? Which one is made better (more solid). Which one has the clearer rectil?[b]There is no reticle DOT only the DR is obviously stronger[/b] Also I am looking at a NA01[b]I'm not ACOG expert but I think that would be TAO1[/b] ACOG scope and if I can get a good enough deal on it I think that I am going to go for it. I have heard that the NA01nsn is lacking at close ranges and assume the NA01 will be too.[b]The ACOG is not lacking at close range- for a scope it is very flexible in its aplication- I would sa great at 100-600m good at 25-100m average at 7-25m and I do not think they should be used under 7M if your life is at stake or if you are competing- the DR would be far quicker between 1 and 25yds[/b] Does anybody know if the clamp that works on the NA01nsn will also work on the NA01? [b]Does the TAO1 have a rear iron sight backup? the mounts replace the rear peep aperature- if it doesn't have one you will have to find a different way to mount the ACOG- the SPECWARGEAR.COM mounts are good for Optima2000 Firepoint and J-Point sights and will not fit the DR. -Winston_Wolf is building a DR mount for the ACOG NSN[/b] Thanks allot for your help. Oh and I think the DR sight will be superior for taking out running deer to 50-60yds- the 1X magnification parralax free and huge field of view should contribute- after that the scope will probably work better.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 1:04:26 PM EDT
I have a JPoint and love it. I shoot plates and the JPoint works so good, three other guys now have them. I use a USP Tactical with a vortex flashider and JPoint. The package is simple awesome.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 4:39:21 PM EDT
My Docter is truly a work of art. It is so tiny and well built it reminds me of a Swiss watch. It is not water proof per se (it is not sealed) however water does not affect it -- it works even completely flooded. If not dried out it could corrode. Docter makes an elusive sealed version for almost $700.00 The Docter is basicly a rip off of the FirePoint/JPoint/Optima only it is much better executed. The SpecWar mount will work fine if you know how to use a drill. The TA01 does not have the BUS lugs to mount the SpecWar mount only the NSN does. But again, with a little imagination and a drill or dremal and I'm sure you could fashion a bottom ring. The TA01/TA01nsn is a little slow in close because of the 4X magnification. My rule of thumb is that if the shot is one I could take off hand then I use the Docter. If I have to kneel or go prone then I use the ACOG. I usually go to the ACOG over 100 yards so the 7MOA version is not too big and gives a nice bright dot. This dual system is truly the best of both worlds. I have been using it for about 18 months and have grown to love it.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:01:51 PM EDT
I told the DR optic people to waterproof and add a IR switch for NODs and they might be able to get USSOCOM to buy it as a replacement for the LAM and rear sight of the MK23 OHG. Then the Lam could be simplified to a simple IR/VIS flashlight. and the LAM wouldn't need to be attached to sight at night. I doubt they will but it sure would be cool.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:34:28 PM EDT
Who carries the Dr. Optic????????
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 8:06:15 PM EDT
B.C. OutDoors/Docter Optics USA are a bunch of dip sh!ts. They sold me an out of stock item, backordered it, then raised the price on me, then would not refund my money or return my calls and emails, then when they did refund my money they did not refund the shipping charges. Stay far away from them. I got my Docter from Botach but others have had similar experiences with them. If I were going to buy one today I'd go with [url]arizonagunrunners.com[/url]
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:21:52 AM EDT
inkaybee has similar experiences as myself. I am currently getting the run around from BC Outdoors. I've heard about all the bad experiences with Botach but I personally have not had a problem. I have been referring a lot of people to Botach since I sell the Docter ready Uzi mounts. I get called by Botach when they have them in stock and currently they don't. In addition to Arizonagunrunners, I would suggest you call up Donnie at [url]http://www.sableco.net[/url] A lot of you already know about Sableco's excellent rep, well Donnie can get them even though he doesn't have them advertised. Decent price too...cheaper than Arizonagunrunners.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 5:28:33 AM EDT
The JPoint is great. I use it every week for competition. I shove it in and out of a holster and the sight never loosens or looses zero. If any thing goes wrong I can send it immediately back for repairs. I have several different mounts. I was also told by JPrecision that it has some upgrades from the Optima 2000, which was pretty good to (2nd generation). The mounts for the JPoint use the same mounts as the Optima. The sight was extremely easy to sight in. There is no doubt the Doc's is nicely made, but the cost of the sight and mounts are to high. The lack of mounting options are to low and the customer service and repair are no good. If you need one for repair your in big trouble it could take a real long time. I hate when people say the Doc's is better because it's made out of metal. That's crap. Think of how many things are made of synthetic plastics. Neither sight was meant for combat use, nor should they be. I have seen the Israel's with Optima 2000 on there Micro Uzi's and have seen recent pictures with then sill using them, well one. I don't think there great combat sights. I purchased my JPoint and mount with a battery for a little under $200 and use it very successfully every week. I no people with Doc's that have used it a few times at the range! I put more round through my pistol in one day of plates then they have the entire time they owned the gun, without the Doc's! If you read a lot of post about the Optima 2000 the biggest problem was the sight adjustment. The first generation the left screw had to be loosened the right screw did the adjustment, then the left need to be tightened down. This sometimes through off the sight adjustment. This was corrected in the 2nd Generation. Then it was found with constant abuse the light would flicker and sometimes go out. This was rear, but it happened. This was corrected just as Tasco closed up shop. The JPoint was brought in by JPrecision and included the upgrades to the electronics. I have not seen a problem with it yet. I personally know of people with up to 5000 round through there pistol with an Optima 2000. I personally know people that own up to four Optima 2000s. I know of one person that has a Doc's and he never uses. Although he has some fine weapons. I have seen both and used both. The Doc's offers no advantages over the JPoint. That's why there is now three people using JPoints every week at our range for plate shoot. The Doc's $350 plus $50 for the mount: $400 The JPoint was $197 with the mount and easy to install, took me about 5 minutes. Also, I have seen a few JPonts at three gun shoots. I have never seen a Doc's at a three gun shoot.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 11:53:15 AM EDT
Wondermut, Like I mentioned before, my Optima's have not failed me yet but they do lose ZERO and they are definitely not as clear as the Docter's. In regards to rounds through our guns, I doubt you've put more rounds than me or some of my shooting buddies that I've setup with Docter's. They are all running them on SMG's. One guy I know is also running one on his STI handgun. In regards, to Docter support, I have never had to send one in but talking to the rep at the NRA show he said any problems and they will replace no charge. They also explained to me what the latest generation looks like and they would also swap out no charge too. I just tried to do a deal with them and have not gotten anything yet but its only been a little over a week so the verdict is still out on them. Docter for $350?? - that's retail Mount? - I make my own. Arizonagunrunners - $279 Botach - $245 Sableco - $255 Jerry's sports $233 (FFL required) Docter is just as easy to install as the Jpoint - both are just two screws. I was also told by the BC rep that the FBI is now using the Docter.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 12:30:48 PM EDT
Wondermut Ever own a pair of plastic sunglasses? Plastic lenses scratch very easily. The Docter has glass lenses (yes two) with the optical coating between the two so it wont scratch. amphibian What is the differece between 1st,2nd,3rd, and LE versions of the Docter? I am not shure what generation I have. Based on the date of purchase I would guess I have a 2nd gen but I don't know.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 1:00:40 PM EDT
Don't get me wrong the Doc's is nice. It's expensive and the added cost just doesn't make it a better buy. The JPoint is scratch resistant and will hold up to any level of competition. If properly maintained there is no reason for concerned. The hood protects when not in use. I don't think neithere scope is suitable for combat use. We sometimes use the scope when firing our suppressors. I use a wet dry can, my friend uses a wet can. He places grease in it and the stuff gets all over the place. He places little clear plastic strips over the lens and removes when finished. He also had been using his can with the JPoint before he did that. He would clean once a day and there was no affect on the lens. He uses lens cleaner and lens wipes. I am very happy with the JPiont and I am sure if someone gave me the Doc's I would be happy with that to. I guess it's how much extra you what to spend and what your using it for.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 1:08:15 PM EDT
I was also thinking if I could afford a few full autos I would also be able to affored a Doc's. I can see were the Doc's would hold up better in a full auto. Specially a rifle. I don't think I would put a JPoint on a full auto rifle.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 2:10:28 PM EDT
I think mounted on the reciprocating slide of a handgun would be more extreme than mounting on a FA weapon. There is a AR15.com team member that is using a SPECWARGEAR.COM mount/ Tasco Optima 2000 on his M4 and is deployed to Afhghanistan (FreeFall). I'm sure the mount/and all three sights would hold up to combat use. As long as diving wasn't neccassary. [b]The DR sight has longer battery life as well so since I believe in the relentless pursuit of perfection I hope and plan to buy the DR sight with WINSTON_WOLF's Mount whenever it materializes- but that doesn't mean that the J-point isn't a good or competitive sight[/b]
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 2:23:32 AM EDT
I bought a DR. Optik sight and all i can say is it absolutely blows away anything on the market. bar none. Anyone who thinks their Aimpoint/EoTech is top of the line is just plain mis-informed.(yes i realize how bold that statement is) Auto sensing dot brightness,5 year battery life, all versions ARE waterproof, (no matter what they tell you),metal construction vs plastic from the competition,German optical glass not plastic.(I read somewhere that Dr. Optik has bought Ziess but i might be wrong about that.) This little unit is built like a tank!!!! Small, Light Weight, infinite amount of mounting solutions,and the fact of where it mounts on pistols will promote anyone who sees it to know it can take seriously punishing recoil. (and it does) I have 2 of them. one mounted on stainless smith .44 mag and the other mounted on my ar-15.I have only had to sight each one in only once and put about 1000 rounds of power house reloads through the smith .44....result....absolute perfect zero. Theese sights deliver. DONT BUY ANY OTHER RED DOT SIGHT UNTILL YOU HAVE FULLY INVESTIGATED WHAT THEESE SIGHTS OFFER.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 4:10:37 AM EDT
I'm not sure if they "bought" Zeiss but I do know that they definitely bought some of their plants and are making scopes in them. Whether or not they bought them totally out, I don't know. In regards to Generation level of Docters: If you flip you Docter upside down, you will see a little channel going from the battery area to the electronics area. The first gens have two black wires that criss cross each other. The 2nd and 3rd gens have a wide white strip that goes back to the electronics area. The 3rd gen has a little round black circle between the two "lockdown" screws on the back of the sight. They are also all waterproof as Combat_Ready mentioned. They do have an LE "Waterproof" model and the only difference is a rubber gasket on the bottom and a small lens that goes in the back where the dot is projected from. If it any of the models are submerged they will still work but the non "Waterproof" model will need to have the water shaked off of and dried out since it doesn't have the little lens in front of it - this is what the rep told me.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 4:12:26 AM EDT
What I would like to know, can you use the Docter sight weaver mount on an AR flat-top, will it co-witness with just a weaver/AR mount or would you need to use something like a Bushmaster mini riser. Also, would the sight co-witness when mounted on a gooseneck mount.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 7:54:12 AM EDT
I am getting ready to purchase an ACOG and I want to mount either a Dr. Optics Red Dot or the Jpoint. Hands down which is better? Where do I buy the sight and the mount for an ACOG TAO1NSN?
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 5:55:30 PM EDT
This site here has the mounts. http://www.specwargear.com/optics&lens.html. It will say for the Optima 2000 which is the same thing.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 5:56:12 PM EDT
This site here has the mounts. http://www.specwargear.com/optics&lens.html. It will say for the Optima 2000 which is the same thing. Based on the posts it seems like the Dr. scope is the better quality.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 4:11:13 AM EDT
234747, If you read my posts you will see that I think the Docter is "hands down" superior. Whywork40, the mounts for the Docter vs the Optima/Firepoint/Jpoint are NOT the same. Both use two screws to attach to their respective mounts but the two screw holes on the Docter are more in the center of the Optic while the Optima/Firepoint/Jpoint are further back. They are NOT the same.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 7:43:32 PM EDT
If you can drill and tap holes it is very easy to modify the spec war mount to fit the Docter. amphibian, My Docter has two black wires and a small black circle between the lock down screws, what does that mean? What are the benefits or consequences of each generation upgrade? Thanks
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 8:18:23 PM EDT
... I'm having difficulty with my original machining plans. I may have to go to a "regular" machine shop to hire out the short run. Dang. [img]http://members.cox.net/stevenaz1/Winston_Photos/ACOG_Surefire1.jpg[/img] [img]
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 4:14:57 AM EDT
inkaybee, if yours has the two black wires that cross each other as I described, it is a first generation. Some of the first gens would fail when mounted on something with a lot of recoil. I'm not sure if the wires shorted out or what. Just that the electronics failed. You can contact Docter and they will swap you out with a 3rd gen for free.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 10:21:33 AM EDT
Amphibian Sorry about all the questions. To contact Docter do I have to go through B.C. (if so I'll keep my 1st gen) or can I contact Docter directly? If so, How? Thanks
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 4:17:16 AM EDT
BC Outdoors IS the importer for DocterOptics USA. You need to go through them. [url]http://www.docteropticsusa.com/index.html[/url]
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 8:58:49 PM EDT
F@&k that!
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 1:56:34 PM EDT
i have had my dr optic mounted in two spots. i had it on an a.r.m.s. carry handle rail.(using the weaver rail mount i purchased along with the sight.) I was originally going to mount it on top of a scope(hense the arms rail) as a secondary sight but decided i didnt need a scope and decided to co-witness it with a bernie cooley adjustible mount purchased from bushmaster. it co-witnesses magnificently with this mount by the way.
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