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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 12/30/2003 9:24:48 PM EST

I was just reading the LTC Chuck Santose article on improved battlesight zero at groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/improvedbattlesightzero.msnw

It make sense to me so I set a couple of rifles, a 16" and a 20" (both 1-7" twist) as per the instructions for -2 clicks for rear sight bottoming. I plan to test it out over the New Year break since I kind of burned out on AKs right now and need an AR fix.

What do you guys think of it?

Also, while I was over at the Maryland site I read that putting a scope on the carry handle can lower the impact point when using the iron sights. It seems a bit far fetched to me, but there it is. Is it proven by your experiences?

Can putting on flashlights, lasers, etc., on rails mess up the iron sights so bad you have to re-zero?
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:08:29 PM EST
I use -3 clicks on all of my A2s 20" & 24"
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 1:35:16 AM EST
I sighted in my 20" A2 Bushmaster using the IBZ method, while allowing for an 8/3 minus (3) click overall travel, and it's worked out very well... With an accurate 200 yard zero(also at 50 yards, BTW) at 8/3 minus (2) clicks, I also get an accurate zero at 100 with 8/3 minus (3) clicks... I'd recommend this approach for sighting in a 20" A2...


  - georgestrings
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 3:54:53 AM EST
I tried to adjust my sights last night, and I could not see where loosening the set screw actually did anything, or if I even loosened it at all.  Is that necessary?  Perhaps it was as I have the A3 with the 6/3 marking, and actually mine already bottoms out about 2 clicks past the 6/3 mark.  I am not sure, but from the IBZ instructions, for this sight I need to be –4 clicks (instead of –2), correct?  Now that I read these instructions again, looks like I need to set at the 6/3 mark, loosen the set screw, raise the site 4 clicks (turning clockwise), tighten the screw then bottom the sight out about 4 clicks below.  This makes somewhat more sense sitting here and not looking at the sight. Does this sound right?  
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 4:12:34 AM EST
Best things since sliced bread.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 4:14:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By bigtwinhog:

I tried to adjust my sights last night, and I could not see where loosening the set screw actually did anything, or if I even loosened it at all.  Is that necessary?
View Quote


Yes, absolutely.  The wheel is a 2 part affair, what you are doing is resetting the wheel vs the dial, and you can't do that unless you unlock the 2 items.


 Perhaps it was as I have the A3 with the 6/3 marking, and actually mine already bottoms out about 2 clicks past the 6/3 mark.  I am not sure, but from the IBZ instructions, for this sight I need to be –4 clicks (instead of –2), correct?
View Quote


COrrect.  You can try it a few times until you get the -4 setting correct.

Link Posted: 12/31/2003 6:59:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 7:03:37 AM EST by Forest]
Originally Posted By Robert2011:
What do you guys think of it?
View Quote

99% of us think its GREAT and use it on all our ARs; the other 1% is asleep [;)].


Also, while I was over at the Maryland site I read that putting a scope on the carry handle can lower the impact point when using the iron sights. It seems a bit far fetched to me, but there it is. Is it proven by your experiences?
View Quote

Yep - but you better go back and carefully re-read it(the key word is [i]can[/i]).

I have found due to the curved lens of the Reflex (and the fact the irons are not centered) optical distortion changes the perceived point of aim.

I've also found some carry handle mounted optics/mounts can interfer a bit with the sight picture of the irons.

Key thing it to test & verify with YOUR setup.

Note I don't have the problem with the EO Tech.


Can putting on flashlights, lasers, etc., on rails mess up the iron sights so bad you have to re-zero?
View Quote

Depends.  If the rails are free-floated then NO (that is why they make free float rails).  But if the rails are not free floated then definately.  Anytime you add weight to the barrel you are bending it a tiny bit.  How much change is depeding on many factors (barrel type, weight of accessories, how they are attached, how you hold the rifle, etc).
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:16:43 AM EST
I use [b]Deteriorated Battle Sight Zero[/b] religiously, Mama!
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 8:57:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By markm:
I use [b]Deteriorated Battle Sight Zero[/b] religiously, Mama!
View Quote


[ROFL2]

Link Posted: 12/31/2003 9:32:40 AM EST
Yes, I too think it is a good idea.  Watch-Six
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:29:59 AM EST
I have not personally seen the eotch mounted to the top of a handle, though I have seen the handle mounting brackets that I think you can still see your iron sights through.  Is that the type mount you are talking about?  If that works, I think I would like to try that first rather than a handle mounted co-witness set up.  And the see through brackets are cheap (If they work)
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:09:11 AM EST
I sight my rifles 1.7 inches high at 100 yards and then check them at 200 yards. I have no need to shoot at less than those ranges to sight in.  
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:48:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 12:26:43 PM EST
Not surprisingly, my rifles are battlesighted at 200 meters.  IBSZ is merely a convenient way to achieve this at a convenient range and preserve the range index on the rear sight.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 1:05:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Best things since sliced bread.
View Quote



Could not have been said any better!
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 9:56:15 PM EST

Thanks to everyone who responded. It's your great information that keeps me going to the range to try all these new things out. The last few days I have been overloading on reading about sights, scopes, and techniques. That Pat Rogers thread had me looking up new product acronyms and re-evaluating the modern AR. Half the stuff he preached I already knew was gospel, so he got my attention to check out the other half. That guy really knows his stuff. I noticed many of you say the same things in obscure threads I usually miss. The search function turned up a goldmine of information.

Now to todays (Wednesdays) fun. I went to the range with the 20" barrel to check out the IBZ and found it shooting a bit low. I turned the front sight 4 clicks up and it was better.

Is 4 clicks the normal amount after doing the IBZ modification?

I haven't shot my ARs enough at targets to really say anything definitive about it. I still wander about the target more than I should, even when I use a scope. I did find my shots going into the belly button at 300 yards until I remembered to adjust the rear sight up to 300m.

Today I outshot my ACOG TA01 with the iron sights at 300 yards. I do weird stuff like that all the time. It was really hard to see the target with the irons, but nice and clear with the ACOG. The target however, responded differently.

My best 5 shot group at 300 yards with iron sights was 6 1/4", next best was 7 1/4" (I removed the scope before each iron sight test).

With the ACOG my best was 9 1/2", next best was 10". Go figure. Nevertheless, optics rule.

I didn't have a measuring tape so thankfully my largest groups will remain a mystery.

If IBZ is the best thing since sliced bread, the ACOG is the butter on the bread!
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:54:44 AM EST
Battlesight zeros, to include IBSZ, are point of aim = point of impact zeros.  If you're trying to put bullets in the center of a bullseye you need to aim at the center, not the bottom edge.

If you perform your initial zero at 50 yards the bullet will be ~1 inch high at 100 yards.  

If your rifle was shooting low you should have moved the front sight down to bring the bullet strike up.  Front sight adjustment is opposite the way you want the bullet to move; rear sight moves the bullet ths same direction.  The front sight on these rifles is a pretty raw adjustment, each click at 2.5" at 200 yards, so you'll never get closer than that even in a machine rest.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 2:04:50 PM EST
Nope , dont use it. I have an A1 rifle. But with an A2 I cant see the point of using the small aperture at 200 unless you are shooting paper. I still beleive that spraying and praying gets the job done ona platoon level in todays military. If you throw enough metal you are bound to hit something.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 2:47:18 PM EST
Buey --

Zero your M16A1 at 50 yards using the unmarked short range aperture.  This will give you the benefits of the flat 200 meter zero that IBSZ provides.  The L(ong) range aperture will be right about 300 rather than there very long 390 meter zero it usually provides.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 3:17:43 PM EST
That seems a little close. 200 and 300. Not to sound crazy, but I do, I practice shooting at what would be people. I got to have visual or or a "ring" from a gong. That is why a use the 3' tank at 400. I donot want to engage anything or one at a range of 2 to 3 hundred. I beleive that I can be hit far easier at those ranges. I know everyone in the world has an AR that shoot 2 inch groups a 600 yrd. But my gun is plastic and aluminum and not magic. so I practic at those 400 M ranges.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:42:06 PM EST
Other than steel gongs there are no targets at 400 meters, darn few at 300, and the majority will be closer than 100.  A 400 meter zero is too high at at midrange for battlesight use.  300 meter battlesight is too high at midrange as well.  250 ain't bad.  200 is better since you have the ability to flip the sight forward to L for long range shots.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:55:14 PM EST
LTC, thanks for the information.  Man, I'm glad you are on here!  
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 4:56:51 AM EST
Q?  Do trijicon night sights have the same dimensions as the regular carry handle sights. I'm not concerned about aperture size but relative heighth to each aperture? I understand there are different sight heights available.
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 5:37:24 AM EST
Forgot   If you sight in at 50 yds with the large aperture, will this not give you the same trajectory, sight setting as the ibz but without the ability to shoot poi with small aperture at 200m?
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 6:13:49 AM EST
For IBZ, sight in with the small app @ 50 @ 8/3-2 (or 6/3-4 for A3s).  If you use the big app, then turn the dial to 8/3 or 6/3 as the case may be.

Look at the directions at the MD AR sight and read carefuly.  The link is somewhere on this board.
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 1:06:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Chuck:
Other than steel gongs there are no targets at 400 meters, darn few at 300, and the majority will be closer than 100.  A 400 meter zero is too high at at midrange for battlesight use.  300 meter battlesight is too high at midrange as well.  250 ain't bad.  200 is better since you have the ability to flip the sight forward to L for long range shots.

-- Chuck
View Quote

So if I sight in at 50 yards or meters with the short range aperture, it zeroed at 200 but I can shoot out to 250, but a little lower impacts, with the same aperture. Then the L marked will zero at 300 and shoot out to how far?
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 4:02:29 PM EST
My ballistic PC is down, so I can't quote bullet drop at 400 meters with the L sight (on a rifle) and a 200 meter zero on the short range aperture.

The standard 250 meter zero is 375 meters when flipped to L.  Try it with a 50/200 zero and see where you print with the long range aperture.  I've got no quick access to ranges beyond 200 meters this time of year.

-- Chuck
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