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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 9/15/2009 9:15:36 PM EST
If building a reasonably accurate to very accurate rifle, will a billet upper or any other type upper make any real difference in your accuracy with a long and heavy barrel?
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 9:52:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 9:56:03 PM EST
Unless you generally shoot .5" groups with every rifle you own, you probably won't notice a difference.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 12:52:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 12:53:05 AM EST by 87GN]
I've been meaning to do an "accurate AR" build comparing receivers, FF/non-FF, barrel contour etc - that is, using the same barrel throughout - but I've been having technical difficulties with some of the test products.

So, in other words, I think it might make a small difference, but I have no data to back that up.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 5:01:30 AM EST
Some uppers like the DPMS lo-pros and I think the sun devil and mabe fulton armory have heavier wall thickness that should theoretically better support the heavy barrel. Since the DPMS is cheaper than a standard one, I'd at least give it a look....PK has 'em.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 5:07:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:
I've been meaning to do an "accurate AR" build comparing receivers, FF/non-FF, barrel contour etc - that is, using the same barrel throughout - but I've been having technical difficulties with some of the test products.

So, in other words, I think it might make a small difference, but I have no data to back that up.


I believe that the FF vs. non-FF has been proven ad nauseum. It generally makes a measurable difference.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 5:28:08 AM EST
The only claims I have ever seen are by the people making and/or selling them. Take that for what it is.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 5:57:57 AM EST
Do they add accuracy, no. They do however give the potenial for more accuracy.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:37:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:37:40 AM EST
I wouldn't spend an additional penny for a billet upper or lower.

YMMV.

Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:47:49 AM EST
what's more important is the lock up between the barrel and the upper receiver, if this is good and the barrel nut has been tightened correctly then either will produce good results - if the barrel is concentric to the receiver then the bolt will be concentric to the barrel extension.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:58:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 7:01:20 AM EST by bigbore]
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 7:06:54 AM EST
They increase the accuracy of the manufacturer's target date to retire a wealthy man. (from all the money he makes claiming that they increase accuracy.)
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 8:04:56 AM EST
I'll never buy one, its a waste of money.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 8:06:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 8:07:19 AM EST by Gatorhunt]
Originally Posted By markm:
They increase the accuracy of the manufacturer's target date to retire a wealthy man. (from all the money he makes claiming that they increase accuracy.)


That's the post of the day

ETA But they do look tacticool.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 1:48:00 PM EST
good point. But I was actually thinking how the pull of a sling, position or use of a bipod, or position of support hand could flex the barrel to upper connection or the upper in relation to the line of the scope. I should have said reduce POI shift rather than increase accuracy.

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Originally Posted By jonathan1994:
will a billet upper or any other type upper make any real difference in your accuracy


no, once the bolt is locked into the barrel extension, the bullet doesnt know or care what type of receiver is covering the
carrier.


Link Posted: 9/16/2009 2:18:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By Miale:
what's more important is the lock up between the barrel and the upper receiver, if this is good and the barrel nut has been tightened correctly then either will produce good results - if the barrel is concentric to the receiver then the bolt will be concentric to the barrel extension.


This man is wise beyond his post count.

Link Posted: 9/16/2009 3:44:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By bigbore:
Originally Posted By jonathan1994:
will a billet upper or any other type upper make any real difference in your accuracy


no, once the bolt is locked into the barrel extension, the bullet doesnt know or care what type of receiver is covering the
carrier.


I don't know that this is actually true. The Remington 40's and FN M98 400's came in single shot or mag. fed. Claim was they were stiffer. I don't really know. Since it seems as if any bolt could be locked into battery and fired (remotely) sans receiver.

I'd think a barrel nut with a much larger bore for a receiver that was heavier, some (not me) might see more accuracy.

I'd thought of building a Space Gun with a really heavy billet. Until I thought out the barrel nut, recever relationship. Then I sobered up. I don't know.
458
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 4:04:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 5:26:55 PM EST
So, lets say a round is chambered, And the aft end of the receiver were to be cut off. Bolt still holds the round in battery, right? Could it not be fired remotely via a strike to the firing pin? The receiver has no effect on the round once it's in battery right?

This is not something I thought up but comes from Frank Newhouse book (Bolt Action Rifles). I realize a gas gun is not a bolt action, but the cartridge is held in place by the bolt. Until relieved by the gas system right?

Would I advise any of the above? Not only no, but HELL NO.

Sorry, should have ask what part you didn't understand. I assumed it was the above.
458
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 5:40:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:15:05 PM EST
I understand that. My AR's have eight lugs. So if each lug, two or 20, is engaged when in battery, in concept the receiver is not needed.
Could it be fired?
458
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:55:34 PM EST
i don't think you quite get it. most bolt action rifles lock up in the receiver not the barrel in which case the rigidity of the receiver is of upmost importance as it controls headspace. with the ar, the lock up is bolt to barrel via the barrel extension. it is critical that the the barrel extension and receiver interface are in true alignment otherwise, while the bolt will still lock into battery, it is not concentric to the barrel meaning that when the round fires, the bolt flexes to a greater degree effecting headspace. consistant headspace is the key to accuracy.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 7:01:15 PM EST
Negative to the thread question!
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 7:10:24 PM EST
From what I've been able to find out, it sounds like a good forging is the strongest.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 7:14:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 7:16:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By OneSickRifle:
Negative to the thread question!


not if you bother to read my earlier reply. the receiver construction is imaterial to accuracy which is the question the op asked.

Link Posted: 9/16/2009 7:27:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 8:17:54 PM EST by 458winmag]
Thanks for that.
Bigbore
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 9:18:00 PM EST
I don't know what difference it makes, if any... all I know is the one billet AR I own is real accurate. Alot more so than the forged one I have. Could be the barrel, the reciever or the combination of the two. There are claims that it's a bit stiffer than forged, but your getting way beyond my paygrade with that.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 5:20:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By Miale:
Originally Posted By OneSickRifle:
Negative to the thread question!


not if you bother to read my earlier reply. the receiver construction is imaterial to accuracy which is the question the op asked.



"imaterial" = ????

Again NO it will not add accuracy.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 5:57:52 AM EST
The question has been asked and answered, but I'll weigh in anyway since there's some discussion here:


*IN THEORY* a stiffer reciever will help. The problem is that, with a system where the bolt locks directly into the barrel extension, as Bigbore and others have pointed out, as long as there's a mechanism to hold the assembly steady during firing, the particulars of the reciever do NOT matter. It's only jobs are to a) provide a space in which the action operates, and b) hold the barrel tightly in relation to the optic's mount.

In other words (again, as has already been pointed out) if the reciever is holding the barrel fixed in relation to the optic (this implies a solid optic mount, a solid optic, and a firmly tightened barrel nut ) and providing a path within which the action can operate, it's doing its job, adding another inch or more (exaggerating for the sake of illustration) to its thickness isn't going to change anything. The only 'wild card' would be the degree of flex in the action that would cause a shift in alignment between the barrel and optic mount. With a standard AR upper and the forces at work in a cartridge the size of a 5.56 or other round, this flex is negligible.


As for changing POI due to sling tension, this is irrelevant with a FF handguard system (if the sling is on the handguard); with non-FF systems, no amount of thickness in the reciever is going to stop tension from being applied to the barrel.

IOW, billet recievers look nice, ARE nice, but contribute NOTHING to the function of the rifle in terms of accuracy or anything else.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 6:52:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 7:00:28 AM EST by Miale]
Originally Posted By OneSickRifle:
Originally Posted By Miale:
Originally Posted By OneSickRifle:
Negative to the thread question!


not if you bother to read my earlier reply. the receiver construction is imaterial to accuracy which is the question the op asked.



"imaterial" = ????

Again NO it will not add accuracy.


apologies for incorrect late night spelling "immaterial", perhaps "of no consequence" would have been a better choice?

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 6:55:13 AM EST
Yup. Either way it does not add accuracy.
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