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Posted: 10/14/2004 8:30:59 PM EST
I'm a new AR guy.

I keep hearing people talk about stocking up on "stripped lowers" in case of another AWB. Can someone explain to me the difference between the pre-ban and banned lowers?

So if I understand correctly, just having a stripped lower is the only critical BANNED component of the AR that couldn't be obtained during the ban, but EVERY other part of the rifle was legally obtainable during the ban? Therefore, if the SAME ban were to occur and I have a new pre or post ban stripped lower, I would still be able to buy EVERYTHING else I need to assemble my AR legally?

Lastly, what's the current average cost of a good stripped lower, and how valuable were those during the AWB?

Thanks everyone!
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 8:37:19 PM EST
Stripped lowers = cheapest way to stock up in case of a ban.

In the event of a new ban, you'd ned to put together a rifle so it could qualify for a 'Pre ban" status.

The was the way it was for the 1994 ban. Rifles that were complete before September 13, 1994 were grandfathered and were allowed to have a threaded barrel/flash supressor, collapsable stock, bayonette lug and pistol grip.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 8:42:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Vinnie:
Stripped lowers = cheapest way to stock up in case of a ban.

In the event of a new ban, you'd ned to put together a rifle so it could qualify for a 'Pre ban" status.

The was the way it was for the 1994 ban. Rifles that were complete before September 13, 1994 were grandfathered and were allowed to have a threaded barrel/flash supressor, collapsable stock, bayonette lug and pistol grip.



But a stripped lower qualifies as a complete rifle? Don't you still have to buy all the other parts to make it complete? Why not buy the whole rifle already assembled instead of just the stripped lower? I think I'm just not understanding something here.

For my Glock, I just stocked up on a bunch of high cap mags. That was it. Simple. The gun didn't really change much.

Sorry for not understanding clearly. That's why I'm here.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:16:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

Originally Posted By Vinnie:
Stripped lowers = cheapest way to stock up in case of a ban.

In the event of a new ban, you'd ned to put together a rifle so it could qualify for a 'Pre ban" status.

The was the way it was for the 1994 ban. Rifles that were complete before September 13, 1994 were grandfathered and were allowed to have a threaded barrel/flash supressor, collapsable stock, bayonette lug and pistol grip.



But a stripped lower qualifies as a complete rifle? Don't you still have to buy all the other parts to make it complete? Why not buy the whole rifle already assembled instead of just the stripped lower? I think I'm just not understanding something here.

For my Glock, I just stocked up on a bunch of high cap mags. That was it. Simple. The gun didn't really change much.

Sorry for not understanding clearly. That's why I'm here.



With 1000 bucks you can go into a gunstore and buy 1 complete rifle OR 5 or so stripped lower recievers (possibly more). For this example we'll use 5.

Now you need lower parts kits for let's say 50 bucks each. An A2 pistol grip for 5 bucks, and a chinese knock off collapsable stock for 30 bucks. Throw them together, now you have a complete lower.

Next you get an upper receiver. Slap that on your complete lower. You have a complete rifle before the ban. Take a picture with the NY Times showing the seriel number and the date, get it notorized and you have proof of this.

Take the upper, slap it on another lower, voila, another complete rifle before the ban.

Rinse and repeat 3 more times, and you have 5 pre ban lower receivers.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:31:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Vinnie:

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

Originally Posted By Vinnie:
Stripped lowers = cheapest way to stock up in case of a ban.

In the event of a new ban, you'd ned to put together a rifle so it could qualify for a 'Pre ban" status.

The was the way it was for the 1994 ban. Rifles that were complete before September 13, 1994 were grandfathered and were allowed to have a threaded barrel/flash supressor, collapsable stock, bayonette lug and pistol grip.



But a stripped lower qualifies as a complete rifle? Don't you still have to buy all the other parts to make it complete? Why not buy the whole rifle already assembled instead of just the stripped lower? I think I'm just not understanding something here.

For my Glock, I just stocked up on a bunch of high cap mags. That was it. Simple. The gun didn't really change much.

Sorry for not understanding clearly. That's why I'm here.



With 1000 bucks you can go into a gunstore and buy 1 complete rifle OR 5 or so stripped lower recievers (possibly more). For this example we'll use 5.

Now you need lower parts kits for let's say 50 bucks each. An A2 pistol grip for 5 bucks, and a chinese knock off collapsable stock for 30 bucks. Throw them together, now you have a complete lower.

Next you get an upper receiver. Slap that on your complete lower. You have a complete rifle before the ban. Take a picture with the NY Times showing the seriel number and the date, get it notorized and you have proof of this.

Take the upper, slap it on another lower, voila, another complete rifle before the ban.

Rinse and repeat 3 more times, and you have 5 pre ban lower receivers.



OK... starting to understand a bit.

But don't you really still have only 1 complete rifle with 5 stripped lowers? Does that mean you'll have to buy all the rest of the parts on the BLACK market when you really need them?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:52:22 PM EST
Course they my not grandfather in any of them like they did before.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 1:43:39 AM EST
I don't see why you can'y just buys some stripped lowers and leave it like that, you do the paper work when you buy the stripped lower and it will be dated. If they do another ban and then it's pre-2005 anything dated before that should be good to go?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:22:44 AM EST
I'm still not understanding something here.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:35:43 AM EST
I keep saying this:

You cannot really prepare for a ban when you don't know what sort of wording will be in it. The wording may be very similar, or completely different. There may be no grandfathering or there may be registration...Who knows.

In terms of general legal reasons, the reciever is the serial numbered part and thus the gun.

The 1994 'assault weapons ban' stated that the gun had to be in preban status before 9/94 for it to be grand fathered. So it had to accept a detachable magazine, semiauto and 2 or more of the following be grandfathered as an assault weapon:

pistol grip
collapsing stock
flash suppressor
threaded barrel

but again, until we see the wording of any future bans, JUST DON"T WORRY about it.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:37:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
I keep hearing people talk about stocking up on "stripped lowers" in case of another AWB. Can someone explain to me the difference between the pre-ban and banned lowers?



Nothing except the date of manufacture.

Here is the funny part - with the last ban even if you had the stripped lower PRIOR to the ban being enacted they were still considered post ban UNLESS you had them as part of an full kit or they were built into a rifle by the day of the ban.

God forbid if there ever is another ban it will most likely have the same kind of clause.

With the CA AW ban they would buy lowers because at least they could build them into a rifle (vs not having a rifle at all). For that kind of ban I could see why people would purchase lowers.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:50:57 AM EST
Unless Kerry gets in and demands some kind of executive order, there will not be another ban. You guys are scared out of your panties on this.

The house and senate knows better than to put a vote for another ban because they all want to keep their jobs. They will not get voted in next time if they try that shit again and they remember this from what happened after the Klinton ban. The majority leader said this was one law that was destined to die.

The democrats lie about all the LE support they get. I heard just yesterday from the NRA that the FOP was supportive of the 94 ban but are no longer supportive because even their research has proven that the ban did not do any good and was a useless peice of legislation. The FOP said that things like flash supressors, bayo lugs and the like did nothing to reduce crime and in fact is not the preferred weapon of criminals.

They also said that since GW came to office they have been cracking down on the criminal and arrests are up 75% which is really helping the crime issue - unlike the ban which did nothing.

So don't worry cause I doubt it is going to happen. Kerry really screwed up in that last debate and everyone got to see what a loser he is. GW Bush will get elected, he will appt judges that will preserve our 2nd amendment rights. Relax.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:18:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vector_Joe:
I keep saying this:

You cannot really prepare for a ban when you don't know what sort of wording will be in it. The wording may be very similar, or completely different. There may be no grandfathering or there may be registration...Who knows.


but again, until we see the wording of any future bans, JUST DON"T WORRY about it.




First paragraph - YES!! Absolutely, finnally someone else. The legislature can write what they, want, the judges can interpret how they want, and the executive branch can enforce if they want.

Second Statement - NO!! We need to worry, we need to be proactive in goverment, call, write, VOTE for god sakes. Educate those around you that don't understand - take a kid to the range. Gun control will not go away - it will be a fight until it wins, because I don't think we ever really will.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:23:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 6:24:33 AM EST by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By Vinnie:


Next you get an upper receiver. Slap that on your complete lower. You have a complete rifle before the ban. Take a picture with the NY Times showing the seriel number and the date, get it notorized and you have proof of this.

Take the upper, slap it on another lower, voila, another complete rifle before the ban.

Rinse and repeat 3 more times, and you have 5 pre ban lower receivers.




That would be ILLEGAL under the previous Klinton Ban


You would need an upper for each of the 5 lowers.



Now, I'm not saying you'd get caught, but you are giving advise on breaking the law as if it were legal to do.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:25:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By booniehat223:

Originally Posted By Vector_Joe:
I keep saying this:

You cannot really prepare for a ban when you don't know what sort of wording will be in it. The wording may be very similar, or completely different. There may be no grandfathering or there may be registration...Who knows.


but again, until we see the wording of any future bans, JUST DON"T WORRY about it.




First paragraph - YES!! Absolutely, finnally someone else. The legislature can write what they, want, the judges can interpret how they want, and the executive branch can enforce if they want.

Second Statement - NO!! We need to worry, we need to be proactive in goverment, call, write, VOTE for god sakes. Educate those around you that don't understand - take a kid to the range. Gun control will not go away - it will be a fight until it wins, because I don't think we ever really will.



I wasn't saying not to worry about a future ban, I am saying that if you want something build it now how you want it within the limits of current laws and don't try to build/buy something based on laws that aren't written yet. Of course we all need to keep up our guards on any future limits on our freedons.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:31:52 AM EST
Doesn't matter. There was no prosecution if someone put a gun together after the ban. No way to prove anything except when lower was sold. ATF will not enforce another stupid law again either. Only charges ever brought were when the charges could be used to get a confession on drugs or something similar. Sort of like gray area AR15's. They were cheap because people were scared of ATF but others bought them anyway and got a great deal. I went to gun shows with the ATF in attendance and saw sellers and individuals selling "illegal guns" and the ATF ignored it.

Registration nationwide will never be accepted so no worry there. That law would be worthless, kind of like prohibition was to alcohol. Many in Kalifornia have non registered guns and will continue to do so.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 7:25:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By Vinnie:


Next you get an upper receiver. Slap that on your complete lower. You have a complete rifle before the ban. Take a picture with the NY Times showing the seriel number and the date, get it notorized and you have proof of this.

Take the upper, slap it on another lower, voila, another complete rifle before the ban.

Rinse and repeat 3 more times, and you have 5 pre ban lower receivers.




That would be ILLEGAL under the previous Klinton Ban


You would need an upper for each of the 5 lowers.



Now, I'm not saying you'd get caught, but you are giving advise on breaking the law as if it were legal to do.



Why would that be illegal? The rifle needed to be a complete rifle before the ban. It doesn't specify how long the rifle is a complete rifle. The way the BATFE sees it, all five should be considered complete rifles with just one upper on hand. After all one DIAS around a group of AR's would make an illegal machine gun iven if they weren't in the same room together.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 7:31:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vinnie:


Why would that be illegal? The rifle needed to be a complete rifle before the ban. It doesn't specify how long the rifle is a complete rifle. The way the BATFE sees it, all five should be considered complete rifles with just one upper on hand. After all one DIAS around a group of AR's would make an illegal machine gun iven if they weren't in the same room together.




I would think they could get under under conspiracy.

Remember, the previous ban said it had to be a complete gun, or a kit, at the time the ban went into effect.

AT THE TIME THE BAN WENT INTO EFFECT, you would only have ONE complete gun, not FIVE.

Physically impossible to have that ONE upper on all FIVE lowers at the time the Ban went into effect.


Conspiracy - would you have any receipts to show you actually owned 5 uppers to mate with 5 lowers? Nope.

Regardless, if they want you they will try almost anything to get you. Still, I'd prefer to have my bases covered.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 7:37:18 AM EST
Fine....


The on the level answer:

Stripped lowers = 100 to 200 bucks
Complete AR = 600 to 1000 bucks.
Uppers 300+ bucks

Now with no ban in effect, you buy/hoard the cheapest part now (the stripped lower). In the event of a ban, you build them as quickly as possible. You can buy the 'Parts' (uppers, stocks, blots carriers, barrels) online. The lower needs to go through an FFL so it's essentially the hardest part to get.

Better?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 7:44:10 AM EST
The problem I have with that comparison - a complete gun uses better parts than those cheap kits.



If you buy a Bushmaster lower, a Bushmaster parts kit, and a Bushmaster upper, you don't really save any money.


Yes, you can get more guns for less doing the kits, but they aren't the quality
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:49:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 8:55:35 AM EST by Vector_Joe]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
The problem I have with that comparison - a complete gun uses better parts than those cheap kits.



If you buy a Bushmaster lower, a Bushmaster parts kit, and a Bushmaster upper, you don't really save any money.


Yes, you can get more guns for less doing the kits, but they aren't the quality



That is not true even with Bushy. But if you pick another quality manufacturer (everyone has their own opinions on who is quality), you could easily save $100 bucks or more even if all the parts are from the same manufacturer. The biggest part you get out of is the FET.

According to BM website (I know, msrp, but the relative prices should stay same)

complete 20 inch $995
complete lower $295 including a2 stock
complete upper $535 20" incl b/bc/ch

according to RRA website MSRP

complete 20 inch $865
complete lower $250 including a2 stock
complete upper $425 20" incl b/bc/ch
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:03:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vinnie:
The lower needs to go through an FFL so it's essentially the hardest part to get.

Better?



I think that's the answer I was looking for. So basically, since the only part that needs to be trasnferred through an FFL is the lower, all the other parts can be purchased from anyone/anywhere, so long as you already have the lower.

Again I ask, what are the physical differences between a PRE-ban lower, and lowers during the ban?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:12:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
Again I ask, what are the physical differences between a PRE-ban lower, and lowers during the ban?



Answered for the second time - none only the date of manufacture.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:18:36 AM EST
So it seems the only real 'trackable' part is the lower, and therefore, everything else was pretty easy to deal with. right?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:28:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
So it seems the only real 'trackable' part is the lower, and therefore, everything else was pretty easy to deal with. right?



correct, any part of the AR can be purchased over the net without any background checks etc. as long as it is not a barrel < 16" or a machine gun part or a sound suppressor part etc. and send directly to your home/office/whatever.

The lower must be purchased through an FFL dealer in your state who must run the NICS check.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:37:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
The problem I have with that comparison - a complete gun uses better parts than those cheap kits.



If you buy a Bushmaster lower, a Bushmaster parts kit, and a Bushmaster upper, you don't really save any money.


Yes, you can get more guns for less doing the kits, but they aren't the quality



I completely agree, and would never be happy with a gun I built like that...

However, If for some God forsaken reason, legislators decided they would make a bill mirroring the OLD AWB, and I needed to put together a rifle fast in order to beat the deadline and make sure of their preban stature, this is one way I would go until I could redo it the right way. Using cheap parts the way I described would also increase the value of the lower. Remember during the ban, preban lowers where up around 1000+ dollars.

This was answering the question of why stripped lowers instead of complete rifles.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:43:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

Originally Posted By Vinnie:
The lower needs to go through an FFL so it's essentially the hardest part to get.

Better?



I think that's the answer I was looking for. So basically, since the only part that needs to be trasnferred through an FFL is the lower, all the other parts can be purchased from anyone/anywhere, so long as you already have the lower.

Again I ask, what are the physical differences between a PRE-ban lower, and lowers during the ban?



There were no physical differences between a preban lower and a postban lower. There are serial numbers on each receiver so the manufacturers could keep tabs on which lower/rifle left the factory at what time and at what state. That's why I added the part about taking a dated picture and having it notorized as proof that the rifle was complete before a ban went into effect.

As stated above, this would all be pivotal on the exact wording of the legislation. My examples were using the situation of the old AWB.
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