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Posted: 8/26/2004 12:50:48 PM EST
Can anyone tell me definitively (absolutely sure) that an A1 type carry handle and sight setup can be used in both servica and match classes.

I am looking at purchasing an Armalite M15A4 SPR II That has the flat-top receiver
Thanks

www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/m15a4_nmr.htm

Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:25:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:08:06 PM EST
As of right now.....NO. Flattop uppers with a carry handle are not currently allowed in NRA or DCM competition. Depending on where you are shooting and your league, they might allow you to use it though. The summer league I'm in does allow it for their service rifle class but not in any NRA or DCM sanctioned matches.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:16:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 2:43:17 PM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By rockytherotty:
As of right now.....NO. Flattop uppers with a carry handle are not currently allowed in NRA or DCM competition. Depending on where you are shooting and your league, they might allow you to use it though. The summer league I'm in does allow it for their service rifle class but not in any NRA or DCM sanctioned matches.



I have to disagree...Last I checked they were allowing them...




here is the new 2004 rulebook: ODCMP 2004 Rulebook
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:18:55 PM EST
looks like they are allowed now....
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:26:14 PM EST
Well that looks postive. I am trying to get a rifle that I can do the most with right off the bat. Thanks for the responses
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:32:20 PM EST
That's B.S. I just checked with the DCM a few weeks ago, I have a DCM Bushmaster AR-15 on order from them and they said the flattops are still not allowed in nra or cmp competition because it is not considered athe "standard issue" rifle as of yet. Call 'em and find out for yourselves. I had also looked into it with the nra and they said the same thing a few months ago. I wanted to make sure what was legal for competition before I spent my $$
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:39:11 PM EST
Sorry AR, dems the rules....
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 2:42:17 PM EST
Those are the rules I checked in their most recent rulebook online. I know the sights have to be standard or NM.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 2:45:02 PM EST
My range lets me use my flat top with the carry handle.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 3:18:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 3:31:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 3:32:46 PM EST by DM1975]

Originally Posted By bigbore:
It doesnt matter because you don thave enough elevation in a detachable carry handle for a real across the course match.



I have to disagree here. 600 yards is the max distance across the course and you can shoot this no problem with a detachable carry handle. I know you will probably disagree with me but it can be done without holding over.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 7:37:56 AM EST
You ever competed in a REAL NRA/CMP match with a carry handle sight (6/3 elevation) using match ammo configured to fight the wind at 600yds? Ever scored decently with that combo?

I didn't think so!

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:25:38 PM EST
What is the difference. Mines handle and rifle for that matter is in the mail. I have seen the detachables and they look exactly like the fixed carry handles as far as the height and sight design. I am just ignorant and generally suck at every match, but do like to know the technical details.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:31:16 PM EST
No carry handle sights...

Flattops with scope are ok for F-class or 4-gun 600, not but not service rifle...

Flat-tops with 'match' sights are ok for match rifle, too...
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:34:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 7:34:47 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By RELTOR:
What is the difference. Mines handle and rifle for that matter is in the mail. I have seen the detachables and they look exactly like the fixed carry handles as far as the height and sight design. I am just ignorant and generally suck at every match, but do like to know the technical details.



Heavy ammo requires more elevation than issue ammo... This is a problem with detachable handles... Plus it's just better to have fixed sights since you get a better, more stable sight platform and you can't use a scope for HP anyway (well, except F-class & 4/600)....

And untill the USMC eliminates the M16A2 completely, you will not see flattops allowed...

Link Posted: 9/15/2004 7:21:19 AM EST
To elaborate on this a bit more -

Most sucessful Service Rifle competitors are using 80gr. SMK, Berger, JLK, or similar bullets for the 600yd. slow-fire event in an across-the-course match. It takes a bullet with that kind of BC to score at this distance with enough points to be competitive in this event.

A 6/3 carryhandle sight just will not give you enough elevation "come-ups" to get to 600yds. from your 300yd. setting without moving your front sight post lower when using one of these loads. Nobody wants to try that during a match. There's just not enough time to verify a new zero.

This is not to say that you shouldn't try your hand at this sport if your range people will allow you to shoot with a carryhandle equipped rifle. Just bear in mind the limitations of your equipment and have fun. You probably won't be very competitive with a carryhandle setup is all.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 4:32:29 AM EST
I don't think anyone really knows what the difference is. As far as I can see they are identical sight parts, the same height. This is an Armalite handle I'm talking about. They even make a CMP DCM legal flat top specific. And the big thing I originally asked about is that they are allowed in the official rule books. If a range doesn't allow them I'd find another more progressive one. After all the original garand shooters probably griped when the M14 was allowed in competition... and are probably still griping. Thanks tor the replies
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:08:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 6:19:02 AM EST by Str8shot]
Just what is it about the 6/3 carryhandle sight lacking a sufficient amount of elevation travel to enable it to provide enough clicks up from the 300yd. line to the 600yd. line using 80gr. match loads that you don't understand?

Nobody really knows the difference? Several people have tried to explain the difference. The fact is that until this problem is corrected the question of the eligibility of the flattop will never become a real issue - nobody who is competitive will use them!

Sorry if none of us did a good enough job explaining the facts to you!

On the other hand, if you've already made your mind up that the rifle that you've already ordered is gonna do the job for you - that's your problem. Just don't confuse your reality with the truth.

Every range that runs an NRA/CMP sanctioned event has a rules commitee. Some ranges have been permitting flattops in Service Rifle Competition, some haven't. If you don't want to play by their rules take your bat and go home.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:26:48 AM EST
As indicated earlier in the thread, a flat top is legal in M16A4 configuration with the detachable A2-style handle/rear sight attached in the normal position. If you want to use that configuration, then go ahead and do so but I'd carry a current copy of the CMP rulebook just in case the 'unenlightented' types want to question you about it.

That said, it is not an optimal arrangement since the rear sight is not match quality. I suspect that you're looking at 1MOA elevation clicks and that's simply too coarse for HP. The threaded shank of the rear sight base is shorter than a normal base so a NM sight won't fit -- unless you mill the top of your upper receiver to accept the portion that will protrude from the bottom of the carry handle. Another option would be to talk to John Holliger and see if it's possible to turn the threads off the rear base, rethread it to a thread pitch for 1/4 or 1/2 MOA elevation, and then sleeve the carry handle. Even if possible he may not want to do it, but it never hurts to ask. The labor costs will probably sting quite a bit...

As already mentioned, the conventional wisdom is that there is not adjustment in these sights to shoot from 200-600yds without turning down the front sight. If you have 15MOA from your 200yd zero you'll probably be OK. If not, you could always come up 3MOA from your 300yd zero and shoot a frame hold at 600 yds -- which basically means that you hold a line of white at the top of the target frame. Using such a hold, you'll want to use a front sight post width that allows you to see enough white to either side of the post to hold consistent windage.

HTH,

Greg
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:05:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 6:15:50 PM EST by RELTOR]
The detachables are available from Armalite with the NM aperatures and 1/4 /1/2 moa clicks I am positive I checked with armalite directly by phone, and their site forum has responses from sales saying they are available. You may be right that the el cheapo handles are different, but you might also not be aware of what's available or I might be wrong. Check into it if it interests you. I shoot mainly 3 gun, but may get a different upper in the future and just plain do not like the bulkiness of the a2 design all the time.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:27:06 PM EST
Here is the link for Armalites forum the height adjustment may be an issue. The screw post not being long enough. I'll inquire further, but see the link about the adjustments.

http://www.armalite.com/ASPs/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1465

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:19:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By RELTOR:
Here is the link for Armalites forum the height adjustment may be an issue. The screw post not being long enough. I'll inquire further, but see the link about the adjustments.

http://www.armalite.com/ASPs/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1465




That's the point. You need a rear sight with '800yds' 55gr elevation to get a 77 or 80grn bullet to 600...
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:45:40 PM EST
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