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Posted: 10/4/2004 10:05:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 6:02:10 PM EST by Crosis01]
Ill be the first to admit Im a city boy from cali... That said... Im a Marine Currently deployed to Iraq an am Looking for a reasonable Scope for my M16A4... I like the ACOG TA31F ... and After alot of talk to Grant (T&R Tactical) I was most impressed with his knowledge an willingness to help... But Ive also come across the IOR Valdada 3x25 QR-TS... The price meets my pocket book an the quality seems to be what I need out here... Im pretty novice at the scope thing... I always shot iron sights growing up so I would love some feedback as to which might be more effective... I will be on alot of Convoy's with possible MOUT oppertunities...


Please Help...

Morse Dustin K
LCpl USMC
hug.gif
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:46:28 PM EST
Get an Aimpoint or EOTech. I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but it's true.


Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:57:33 PM EST
can you explain the difference and why they are better then the 2 i listed?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 9:00:27 PM EST
ACOG is a long range optic, Aimpoint is short range. Very fast. Mout is Aimpoint territory, really.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 9:17:15 PM EST
but i will also be doing the longrange...
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 9:20:34 PM EST
Then the ACOG. Up close you can shoot with both eyes open, superimposing the reticle onto the target. At range it really helps. The 4-8 hundred meter stadia lines will compensate for bullet drop. The lines will be approx. the width of a mans chest at the proper distance.

Military issues the Aimpoint as the M68 CCo. Marine Corps has a bunch of ACOGs too, but not nearly enough. Have you had a chance to try these optics?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 9:25:28 PM EST
nope like you said not nearly enough... thats y i posted... it seems from the spec that the IOR is pretty close to the ACOG.... without giving away my first born...
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 10:10:10 PM EST
if it was my life i would go ACOG .
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 10:11:50 PM EST
I don't know that the IOR is tough enough. I haven't heard that they are not, but I know the ACOG can be dropped and still hold zero.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 1:15:11 AM EST
Between the two, I would definitely choose the ACOG TA31. More versatile than any standard glass optic and well proven in the theater by your own guys on the A4s. Missions have a way of changing once you are in the field, so I think you will be happy for the versatility of the ACOG. While it does cost more, you should be able to sell it after your tour if you wish and get much of your investment back.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 2:12:45 AM EST
ACOG. The IOR is unproven @ this stage. It also takes a battery & your not going to get the life out of it like an Aimpoint +/-10000H. How long range are you talking? Aimpoint easily good out to 300m.
-Justin
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:26:06 AM EST
If you are looking at a lot of convoy work, the Aimpoint is clearly superior. Unlike the ACOG or IOR, it has a parallax-free reticle and unlimited eye relief. This means you can shoot accurately from some pretty odd positions - it is also a big help in shooting while moving or shooting from a vehicle.

Another advantage of this is that you can fire from around cover and expose practically nothing besides the rifle. The AARs I've seen suggest that most of the fighting there is going on at ranges of less than 100m where the Aimpoint is a clear winner. I believe the most common range they were encountering was 30m - which is where the Aimpoint really shines.

The Aimpoint is also superior to the IOR in ruggedness while still being more affordable than the TA31F. If you plan on doing a lot of convoy movement, I might consider an Aimpoint over even a TA31F; but I would definitely take it over the IOR.

Are any of the other guys in your unit purchasing sights? Will any of them have telescopic sights or red-dot style optics?
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:37:18 AM EST
ACOG. The IOR is unproven @ this stage. It also takes a battery & your not going to get the life out of it like an Aimpoint +/-10000H. How long range are you talking? Aimpoint easily good out to 300m.
-Justin


30m - 300m as far as ive been briefed...

The Aimpoint is also superior to the IOR in ruggedness while still being more affordable than the TA31F. If you plan on doing a lot of convoy movement, I might consider an Aimpoint over even a TA31F; but I would definitely take it over the IOR.

Are any of the other guys in your unit purchasing sights? Will any of them have telescopic sights or red-dot style optics?


I appreciate the info... I dont know about the guys in my unit Im being TAD to another unit that was issued all the equipment in conus... they didnt bring extra out, an if i wanna go out with them to do my job i need the equipment... most of them have ACOG's... Some of the guys are running around with personal scopes on their rifles that look like .22 scopes...
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:38:54 AM EST
, I might consider an Aimpoint over even a TA31F; but I would definitely take it over the IOR


Y do you rate the IOR so poorly? have you used it?

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:40:35 AM EST
Can't help but being horrified that our boys have to supply their own optics. Vastly underpaid, under appreciated, and poorly supplied.................Sad that things never change from my time in
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:48:57 AM EST
Can't help but being horrified that our boys have to supply their own optics. Vastly underpaid, under appreciated, and poorly supplied.................Sad that things never change from my time in



Hey we're Marines we improvise... Its what we do... Id rather pay for my own equipment an know it wont fail meaning Im keeping my brother alive and myself then not have it an something happens... Pay sucks but what can I say, If I was here to get rich I wouldnt have joined... Its about the brotherhood, The men you serve with... Most people wouldnt understand... Hell you wanna do us military a favor... 1. Vote Bush. 2. Vote for military equipment funding... LoL thatll save all our @$$es an bring us home....
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 7:01:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I don't know that the IOR is tough enough. I haven't heard that they are not, but I know the ACOG can be dropped and still hold zero.



I can't speak for the 3X25 but I can speak forthe 4-14x50 IOR because I do have one. Mine took a fall, and while only a two foot fall it was directly onto a hard tile covered cement floor no damage what so ever, when I took it out to the range later that day, there was no shift in POA/POI. IOR scopes are tough shit.

Honestly though, for a near far thing, i'd go with a 1.1-4x26 IOR. Or some other 1-something variable. I had no problem hitting clay birds at 120yards on the 1 power setting with my leupy 1-4.

Anyway I'm not in a combat zone, but I think the low power variables are the best choice, because you can do the MOUT thing and clear buildings and such because you have the low power setting, but also you can jack it up to 2,3,4 power for when yer out and about working a convoy as well. I guess I'll find out how well it works in 11days though.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 8:14:46 AM EST
Trust me I know how it is. Being in the Seabees the other stepchild of the Navy, I've spent my time with Marines. What you've done with what you've been given is amazing
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 8:23:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Crosis01:
Hell you wanna do us military a favor... 1. Vote Bush. 2. Vote for military equipment funding... LoL thatll save all our @$$es an bring us home....



You do me proud, son! Drive on Warrior!!!
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 10:52:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Crosis01:
, I might consider an Aimpoint over even a TA31F; but I would definitely take it over the IOR

Y do you rate the IOR so poorly? have you used it?



I'm not rating it poorly. I am just rating it below the Aimpoint and ACOG, which I think even many IOR owners who have used all three would agree with.

I have used the Aimpoint and ACOG and have confidence in them. I have seen and used other people's IOR scopes but I don't have the same experience in them so I don't have the same confidence in them. At least one of the IOR scopes died on the range, so that didn't give me a warm feeling either; but everybody puts out a lemon now and then so I don't know if that was typical or not.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:44:24 PM EST



Hey we're Marines we improvise... Its what we do... Id rather pay for my own equipment an know it wont fail meaning Im keeping my brother alive and myself then not have it an something happens... Pay sucks but what can I say, If I was here to get rich I wouldnt have joined... Its about the brotherhood, The men you serve with... Most people wouldnt understand... Hell you wanna do us military a favor... 1. Vote Bush. 2. Vote for military equipment funding... LoL thatll save all our @$$es an bring us home....


OHHRAA!! Devil Dog! Keep up the good work over there.
My EAS was in 2002. Former Sgt. of Marines 0311.
Watch your 6!
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:00:34 PM EST
Good luck and be safe. Semper Fi.
Cpl. Reed
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:14:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Crosis01:

Some of the guys are running around with personal scopes on their rifles that look like .22 scopes...



I don't know about anyone else, but this sentence scares the shit out of me. Even those 40 buck red dots that Tapco was giving away are probably better than that. I hope the hell those guys can get some better scopes ASAP.
Stay safe man.....
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:29:43 PM EST
I think what Im gonna do is since no one can give me a definate answer on whats so bad about the IOR an y the aimpoint an ACOG are better I'll buy the IOR and an Aimpoint... Now thats said Ill need with with the Aimpoint to buy since I already know whay IOR Im getting...
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:31:39 PM EST
M2 Aimpoint, its the mil-spec one, with night vision settings.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:35:27 PM EST
koo..... thanx I'll look it up...
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:36:49 PM EST

Hell you wanna do us military a favor... 1. Vote Bush. 2. Vote for military equipment funding... LoL thatll save all our @$$es an bring us home....


+1 from the Army. And vote us a decent pay raise
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 8:01:26 PM EST
You're over in Iraq now? and ordering this? How long will it take to get to you? I wonder how long shipping to a warzone will take?
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 8:20:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2004 8:22:43 PM EST by dacat]
Another vote for the 1.1-4x IOR. Better fov on 1.1x than the 3x cqt, same weight for both, but the 3x is less bulky.
About the batteries failing on the IOR, I don't need them in bright daylight at all, can't see the illum. anyway. The horseshoe without illum in middle of reticle allows me both eyes open shooting like a red dot would.
For cheap there is the Simmons 1.5-5x 20mm shotgun scope with diamond in middle of reticle for close up stuff. $90 at Midway I think, is being used in 3-gun competition, lighter than the IOR. The 20mm one not the 30mm one, it has narrow fov.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 2:25:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 2:38:28 AM EST by Crosis01]

You're over in Iraq now? and ordering this? How long will it take to get to you? I wonder how long shipping to a warzone will take?




yes... takes 14 - 21 days depending on the package size....



Another vote for the 1.1-4x IOR. Better fov on 1.1x than the 3x cqt, same weight for both, but the 3x is less bulky.
About the batteries failing on the IOR, I don't need them in bright daylight at all, can't see the illum. anyway. The horseshoe without illum in middle of reticle allows me both eyes open shooting like a red dot would.
For cheap there is the Simmons 1.5-5x 20mm shotgun scope with diamond in middle of reticle for close up stuff. $90 at Midway I think, is being used in 3-gun competition, lighter than the IOR. The 20mm one not the 30mm one, it has narrow fov.





yeah the 1.1-4 is nice but 10.5 inches is a bit bulky for the situations here... i figure a aimpoint m2 will be my fallback... with the qr-ts being my primary unless im not impressed...

Ok Question... wtf is MOA and fov?
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 2:45:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 3:26:42 AM EST by ICU]
Has anybody have any solid info about how IOR performs in battleground setting? AIMpoint has more than proven itself, ACOG the same. This guys in the middle of a war zone & hes getting opinions about an unproven optic. An IOR that fell a whole two feet? Falling into the prone position will put that much stress on the optic. My aimpoint fell twelve feet from balcony to driveway, landed on the lens cap & never missed a beat. Lots of those storys out there. Crosis please visit Tactical Forums www.tacticalforums.com/ for some solid info about the optics you desire. There are true operators over there, w/ real info & not my new optics is better than yours crap. Stay safe & God bless. -Justin

Please forget about the IOR. Spend the money on ACOG, Aimpoint or EOTech. Also if your in & out of tight or in awkward positions getting the right eye reliefe & weld may be more difficult w/ the ACOG. Forget the IOR. See what KevinB, Combatdiver, & one or two others on the board use. There actually there.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 5:04:15 AM EST
I'm new to the site and came across your question. If you are in a city go with the Aimpoint, if out in a more rural, spend the money on the ACOG. I'm currently in Bagdad with the 1st Cav. We prefer the M68/Aimpoint because of the urban enviroment. A couple of guys bought ACOGs and other various scopes before we deployed and have traded them for the M68 that the Army finally issued us. The 4x in the ACOG just isn't the best for 20-50 meter reflexive shooting.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 6:30:25 AM EST


Ok Question... wtf is MOA and fov?



Minute of Angle... basically..... I know Ill get flammed for this.. but its basically how big something is. For example. An EOtech has a 65 MOA ring With a 1 MOA dot in the middle. An Aimpoint has a 4 MOA dot in the middle.

FOV. Feild of Veiw..... basically.. what kind of tunnel vision do you look through. When looking through the optic you need/want a wide feild of veiw. This way you can aquire targets faster. Both the Aimpoint and EOtech have very wide fields of veiw.

Id save some money and get either the Aimpoint with the NV or the 552 EOtech. All egos aside ... both of these will serve you well. IMO.

Hope that helps you... god speed... thankyou for my and others freedom!

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:09:19 AM EST

I'm new to the site and came across your question. If you are in a city go with the Aimpoint, if out in a more rural, spend the money on the ACOG. I'm currently in Bagdad with the 1st Cav. We prefer the M68/Aimpoint because of the urban enviroment. A couple of guys bought ACOGs and other various scopes before we deployed and have traded them for the M68 that the Army finally issued us. The 4x in the ACOG just isn't the best for 20-50 meter reflexive shooting.


im near ramadi

MOA, FOV answer... thanx helps alot...
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:19:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:04:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Crosis01:
nope like you said not nearly enough... thats y i posted... it seems from the spec that the IOR is pretty close to the ACOG.... without giving away my first born...


Not really, the IOR lacks the BAC capability. BAC is what allows the TA-31 to work reasonably well in MOUT situations.

The IORs reticle isn't nearly bright enough for BAC, so the scope will actually slow you down when it get's up close and personal.

BTW what are you thinking is 'long range', all the reports I've seen say the average combat distance is something like 30M and that snipers are rarely making shots as far as 300M. For an average grunt the I'd think the TA-31 is overkill. For those conditions I'd have to say the Aimpoint and EOTech would serve you better.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:53:21 AM EST


Send me an e-mail. eric@adcofirearms.com

I have Aimpoint M2s in stock and I have my own rock-solid PRi mount w/a little tan paint on it that I could throw in...



I appreciate the offer im currently working with Mike from CSGunWorks... But I'll def. keep you in mind...




Not really, the IOR lacks the BAC capability. BAC is what allows the TA-31 to work reasonably well in MOUT situations.

The IORs reticle isn't nearly bright enough for BAC, so the scope will actually slow you down when it get's up close and personal.

BTW what are you thinking is 'long range', all the reports I've seen say the average combat distance is something like 30M and that snipers are rarely making shots as far as 300M. For an average grunt the I'd think the TA-31 is overkill. For those conditions I'd have to say the Aimpoint and EOTech would serve you better.



I said pretty close... Not exact... Although I appreciate the help...
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