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Posted: 5/20/2005 9:44:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 9:22:24 PM EDT by dana]
I want to know how you guys feel about using a 223 for deer hunting. I live and hunt in the southeast so rang is short, about 100 to 150 at longest. The deer are about 200 pounds at best. I am willing to build a “deer” rifle but would rather not and just put the money into AR stuff. Is this a bad idea?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:41:22 AM EDT
If you are a new hunter, this may not be the right caliber for you

Animals do not reason cause and effect and the psychological effect of being wounded does not cause premature shock to set in on the animal like fear can with people

as a result a critically wounded deer can go a very long way before you find it

You will likely experience an adrenaline rush when you see deer in your kill zone and it can affect shot placement dramatically

If you can contain yourself and limit shots to around 15-150 yds and have exccellent shot placement (perfect head, neck, or vital area shots) you can easily kill with the 5.56. My step brother who kills around 10 deer a year always shoots a few with his AR. He has icewater in his veins and does not miss.henever
I recommend the hornady 77, or 75 gr bullets.

RBCD (google them) makes a lightweight blended metal bullet that should also work very well

I am a huge AR fan but I normally hnt with a .270.

I recommend you buy an inexpensive bolt gun, an inexpensive scope, and get used to hunting before trying out the AR
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:04:13 AM EDT

Many people consider the Winchester 64 grain Power Point (from the Super-X line) and the Power Point Plus (from the Supreme line) rounds to be the best deer rounds available. Predictable expansion across a wider-range of velocities is why most states mandate soft-point bullets for hunting and that certainly applies here. While military FMJ [including the 75- and 77-grain bullets mentioned above] will certainly and quickly kill a deer within fragmentation range, it also tends to tear up a lot of meat and skin and leaves fragments all over the place which makes it undesirable for hunters. And it would be cruel to shoot a deer with FMJ outside the fragmentation range, as you would only wound the deer and it would likely suffer a long, painful death.


The Ammo Oracle
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 7:25:30 AM EDT
Go to the hunting forum.

Do it. (use an ar)

A gut shot deer with a larger caliber is still a gut shot deer. You do, however, have to be a little more concerned with penetration. But I'd venture to say any 60 grain soft point and up will do the job. The 55's have even been known to. And some even use, ballistic tips. But go over to the hunting forums and post this. Alot of the guys have used it. And you will always get someone who tells you not to. But they are usually people that have never done it. They heard a story that there cousin's, sisters, brother in law, twice removed, and 3 generations ago wounded a deer with a .223.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:03:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 9:04:52 AM EDT by ISED8U]
I don't think the 223 is idealy suited for killing medium size game like whitetail deer, but it will do the job. You could fill a book with better calibers for whitetail hunting. If you want to hunt deer with your AR just do it. Check with your state's game commission first, because some states regulate the capacity of the magazine you can use while hunting. Even a well placed shot with the 223 won't immediately drop a whitetail (unless you hit the spine or head), so you'll get to work on your tracking skills. We expect pics of your first kill!
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:45:51 AM EDT
Shot placement
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:51:53 AM EDT
This forum is the only place I've ever seen anyone recommend 223 sized cartridges for deer.

I've seen them recommended for prairie dogs and varmints though.

I guess you guys know something that no one else does.

Buy a $200 used 30-30 or whatever and be done with it.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:55:03 AM EDT
.223 works fine for deer. I have taken three so far, two died in their tracks and the third only made it about 40yds (ok, 30yds, then I shot him again then he made 10 yds and fell over dead.)
Make sure you use a high quality bullet. (I handload, my favorite is the 65gr Sierra gameking, next favorite is the 64gr Winchester power point) and place your shot exactly where it needs to be.
It is a rifle for more experienced shooters, not beginners or a deer season only hunter.
I have a few pictures of the ones I took complete with the rifle in the background if you would like to see them. Just let me know.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:58:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GaryM:
.223 works fine for deer. I have taken three so far, two died in their tracks and the third only made it about 40yds (ok, 30yds, then I shot him again then he made 10 yds and fell over dead.)
Make sure you use a high quality bullet. (I handload, my favorite is the 65gr Sierra gameking, next favorite is the 64gr Winchester power point) and place your shot exactly where it needs to be.
It is a rifle for more experienced shooters, not beginners or a deer season only hunter.
I have a few pictures of the ones I took complete with the rifle in the background if you would like to see them. Just let me know.



I don't know...

Poachers in south jersey use 22LR stingers or yellowjackets to hunt deer out of season. We have monster sized deer up here and the 22LR will actually kill them.

But where do you draw the line?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:27:49 PM EDT
I have to say hunt with your AR. i hunted for a fewyears with a.222 rem., I never lost a deer with throat or temple shot. As far as .223 goes, Federal makes a Bear Claw Trophy Bonded core round that is ideal for medium sized game.Good luck and post your pics
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:52:46 PM EDT
I shot my first deer with my AR15 last year. Rock on!! I got a Remington 700 ADL 30.06 for xmas for next year. But if you only have an AR, I would use it.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 7:08:43 PM EDT
In some states 223s are completely illegal for deer hunting.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:16:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 8:17:43 PM EDT by longhorn789]
Dana,

As you can see, to each his own.

There are two types of people on this forum, on this subject.

1. People that hunt game with the appropriate caliber weapon because they are responsible hunters. Their focus is the hunt.

2. People that use their AR-15 to hunt practically everything because they just like shooting their AR-15 regardless of the game. Their focus is the rifle.

Draw your own conclusions..................
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:27:39 PM EDT
Swift just came out with a new 75 gr. Sirrico (spell?) bullet specifily for deer.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:47:43 PM EDT
Thats not a deer, its a large dog. er ... it all depends on where you are in the country and what size the beastie is. Up north, the deer tend to be much larger than down south. No offence intended in my comments.

I would not use a .233 for deer, I would, however, use a 6.5 x 55 round. And of course shot placement is everything. A carefully placed .22 LR will take out a deer if you shoot them in the head just right. But if you are going for torso shots, then please be kind to the animal and use enough energy to properly kill the deer.

You owe the deer to kill it cleanly. Do not take the shot if you are not sure of the shot.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:52:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By longhorn789:
Dana,

As you can see, to each his own.

There are two types of people on this forum, on this subject.

1. People that hunt game with the appropriate caliber weapon because they are responsible hunters. Their focus is the hunt.

2. People that use their AR-15 to hunt practically everything because they just like shooting their AR-15 regardless of the game. Their focus is the rifle.

Draw your own conclusions..................



I'm inclined to agree, but there are people that use bolt action .223 "sporting" rifles to take deer clean and humanely as well
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:10:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 9:11:33 PM EDT by General_Tso]

Swift just came out with a new 75 gr. Sirrico (spell?) bullet specifily for deer.


I saw that on Midway, but I don't know the first thing about it. Any links?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:20:15 PM EDT
I knew this would bring a mix of answers. I have a nice Savage 270 NIB that I got a deal on. The thing is the stock just doesn’t fit me and it needs a scope. So for me to be happy with it I need to replace the stock and buy a nice scope for it. I figure I am looking at a few hundred dollars because I wont put a cheap scope on it. It is just that at this point in my life and gun ownership, I don’t care to own anything that doesn’t bring a smile to my face when I shoulder it. Does this make any sense? So I can spend a few hundred more and have a nice hunting 270, or I can sell it and save the money I would put into it and use the AR. I also have 8mm, 303, 7.62x54,7.62x39 ect. But nothing that can take a scope. I guess I have a few options.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:11:38 AM EDT
Hi Dana, About 30 years ago I got a wild hair and bought some remote property in the Northwest. T he only rifle I had was an SP-1. Never gave a second thought to the caliber. I just hunted with what I had. I didn't carve notches on the stock or anything, but I estimate I killed around 25 black tail deer while I was up there. Only one deer required a follow up shot. Keep in mind, this was before Al Gore invented the internet, and you had to put up with a bunch of arm chair pundits that don't know squat about reality. Get your AR and have fun.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:18:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By red65:
This forum is the only place I've ever seen anyone recommend 223 sized cartridges for deer.

I've seen them recommended for prairie dogs and varmints though.

I guess you guys know something that no one else does.

Buy a $200 used 30-30 or whatever and be done with it.



There you go! You really should read the ammo oracle.

I have used 65 and 75 grain Hornady for the last two years with great success. But I went a step better and went with a .44 mag levergun. In the ARFCOM tradition, I got both. I choose whichever one I feel like taking out that day.

Bob
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:18:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 5:30:41 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By dana:
I want to know how you guys feel about using a 223 for deer hunting. I live and hunt in the southeast so rang is short, about 100 to 150 at longest. The deer are about 200 pounds at best. I am willing to build a “deer” rifle but would rather not and just put the money into AR stuff. Is this a bad idea?



If yer a first time or relativly inexperianced hunter, I'd say don't use .223 on deer. Go with a build in another cal. Like 458 or one of the 50cals. I'd say 6.8 but unless you hand load for it there really isn't to much for ammo out there right now. Remmington is suposed to be loading a 115gr SP ammo in 6.8 but midway doesn't even list it, they list a 110gr Vmax though. But like I said most of it is listed as waiting for their shipment.

As you gain more experiacne with the AR and the .223 round than I don't see a problem using it. I have a buddy who's brother uses a bolt gun in .223(18in barrel) for deer hunting and he has yet to have one go more than 20 yards before dropping dead. Thts not bad seeing that my buddy got one two years ago(both lungs and the heart) with a 7mmRem mag and the thing ran for about 100 yards before dropping dead.

Deer can and have been taken cleanly and humainly with the .223 don't let anyone bullshit you and tell you it can't be done. I just don't reccomend it for first time or inexperianced hunters.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:21:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 5:28:11 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By longhorn789:
Dana,

As you can see, to each his own.

There are two types of people on this forum, on this subject.

1. People that hunt game with the appropriate caliber weapon because they are responsible hunters. Their focus is the hunt.

2. People that use their AR-15 to hunt practically everything because they just like shooting their AR-15 regardless of the game. Their focus is the rifle.

Draw your own conclusions..................



Dude you are so full of bullshit. When I hunt it's about hunting, not about the gun. The gun is nothing more than a tool. As the military folks are fond of saying, the mission dictates the gear, that goes for the gun as well. Some palces the AR is better suited to the environment your hunting than a bolt gun is. Some places the bolt gu nis a better choice. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

The guys I hunt with used to have the same attitude as you. Till we did adrive on some steep ass heavily wooded hills. It was a bitch for them with thier long barreled boltguns. And a piece of cake for me with my AK(didn't have an AR at the time, and still would have used the AK had I had an AR).

You ned to lose that holier than thou attitude about this, you don't help at all with it. You may not like it, but talking shit about the people that use ARs for hunting isn't exactly going to help you bring anyone about to your line of thinking. That and it just makes you look like an ass. IF you don't like it thats fine, thats your OPINION and your right. Just don't tell me why I choose to hunt with what I hunt with, you are not me or anyone else that hunts with an AR, so you don't know why we make our choice in weapons for hunting.

Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:23:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By longhorn789:
Dana,

As you can see, to each his own.

There are two types of people on this forum, on this subject.

1. People that hunt game with the appropriate caliber weapon because they are responsible hunters. Their focus is the hunt.

2. People that use their AR-15 to hunt practically everything because they just like shooting their AR-15 regardless of the game. Their focus is the rifle.

Draw your own conclusions..................



I'm inclined to agree, but there are people that use bolt action .223 "sporting" rifles to take deer clean and humanely as well



a friend of mine goes every year to South Africa.He hunts with a bolt action 223 rifle and he's very happy with it. I have never used my AR for hunt cause I'm not a hunter but I would like to try it.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:28:06 AM EDT
As I have said before, my Great Uncle, last of the true, old day woodsmans, used tohunt deer with a .22. One shot, one kill.

Take this entire thread, subtract all the bullshit spewed by those who dont know, and read the shot placement posts.

Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:28:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 5:31:02 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By CavVet:
As I have said before, my Great Uncle, last of the true, old day woodsmans, used tohunt deer with a .22. One shot, one kill.

Take this entire thread, subtract all the bullshit spewed by those who dont know, and read the shot placement posts.




Right on.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 6:16:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:
As I have said before, my Great Uncle, last of the true, old day woodsmans, used tohunt deer with a .22. One shot, one kill.

Take this entire thread, subtract all the bullshit spewed by those who dont know, and read the shot placement posts.




Yup, boil it all down to the bone and that about covers it. Of course I would also say include the parts about using quality ammo too.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 12:33:34 PM EDT
http://elksbreath.co.nz/.024_1.jpg

The veiw off my porch..
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 7:26:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 7:26:52 PM EDT by longhorn789]

Dude you are so full of bullshit. When I hunt it's about hunting, not about the gun. The gun is nothing more than a tool. As the military folks are fond of saying, the mission dictates the gear, that goes for the gun as well. Some palces the AR is better suited to the environment your hunting than a bolt gun is. Some places the bolt gu nis a better choice. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

The guys I hunt with used to have the same attitude as you. Till we did adrive on some steep ass heavily wooded hills. It was a bitch for them with thier long barreled boltguns. And a piece of cake for me with my AK(didn't have an AR at the time, and still would have used the AK had I had an AR).

You ned to lose that holier than thou attitude about this, you don't help at all with it. You may not like it, but talking shit about the people that use ARs for hunting isn't exactly going to help you bring anyone about to your line of thinking. That and it just makes you look like an ass. IF you don't like it thats fine, thats your OPINION and your right. Just don't tell me why I choose to hunt with what I hunt with, you are not me or anyone else that hunts with an AR, so you don't know why we make our choice in weapons for hunting.



Here you go photoman.......

Drink plenty of water with it..........

Link Posted: 5/24/2005 3:42:44 AM EDT
As I have replied before my dad retired from Cadillac Gage where the .223/5.56 Stoner 63A weapons system was manufactured in the mid sixties. He was there when the ballistic testing came in about the .223/5.56 round. After he saw what the round was capable of he got a Remington model 600 carbine in .223 Remington and never looked back taking many deer in his 67 years. He as well as many in my family have and do use the .223/5.56 round with great success but the key is SHOT PLACEMENT. I have personally taken quite a few Whitetail deer and a 326lb Russian boar with a .223/5.56 Colt Match HBAR. I used Winchester 64gr Power Point ammo on my hunts but my dad always used 55gr Remington soft points. But getting back to the point as a hunter you must limit yourself to only the best high percentage shots. I only take neck, spine, and broad side "arm pit" shots at about 150 yards and under. Shot placement is definitely the key. A poorly shot deer will run off and suffer a slow death even if hit with a 12 gage slug. I have heard the "Use a cannon and if it only hits them in the foot they will go down" argument before. I have also seen/helped during sight in days where so called "hunters" were happy if they could keep grandpas 30-30 inside a garbage can lid at 100 yards. A .223/5.56 will do the job if you are willing to do yours. JMTCW......YMMV. Trapfan.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:21:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2005 4:22:02 AM EDT by BookHound]
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:58:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2005 5:00:13 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By BookHound:
First of all, welcome to the site, dana. It’s nice to see a fellow GA hunter posting here.



originally posted by photoman…

It was a bitch for them with thier long barreled boltguns.



photoman, you make an assumption that bolt-action rifles all have long barrels. (At least that's what your post implies.) That isn’t always the case. Just thought I’d point that out. Not all bolt-guns are less handy in the field than an AR or AK.

Dana, I won’t bust anyone’s balls for using LEGAL hunting equipment. If it’s legal, go for it. Go hang out on a hunting forum and you’ll see the recurve and longbow guys trashing the compound bow shooters. And they all bash the guys using crossbows. You’ll also see the guys who shoot flintlocks bashing on the guys with the $100 CVA muzzleloaders & Pyrodex pellets.

In GA, it is legal to use a .223 caliber cartridge, providing it has an expanding bullet. If that’s what you want to use, I wish you luck.

It is mostly about shot placement. No one can argue that shot placement is NOT critical with any caliber. A poor shot with a .50 BMG might still have you chasing that blood trail through the woods.

However, I do personally feel there are better calibers for hunting our GA whitetail deer. I shoot a .270 or 7mm Mag most of the time. Why? They almost always transfer much more energy to the animal. For example, look at the following information from Federal’s website. (Sorry about the formatting, but I’m sure you can still read the data.)

7MM REM. MAGNUM NOSLER BALLISTIC TIP (150 grain)
Yards 100 200
FPS 2913 2724
Energy 2826 2472

223 REM. (5.56X45MM) NOSLER PARTITION (60 grain)
Yards 100 200
FPS 2737 2350
Energy 998 736

According to the above information, the 7mm Mag dumps almost three times the energy at 100 yards than the 60-grain .223 bullet. To me, this extra transfer of energy provides a little more margin for error in shot placement. This is important to me because I want to put the animal down as quickly and as humanly as possible. Shot placement is the number one concern, but there is still more to the equation.

I hope this helps you understand why I love my ARs, but choose not to use them to hunt whitetail.

Best of luck to you.



Actually I make no assumption, the guys I was hunting with were all carrying bolt guns with barrels that ranged from 22-26inches. Thats not assumeing. Thats telling the facts to the situation I was talking about. My longest barrel on a bolt gun is 24 inches, that gun was custom built not as a hunting gun, though I do use it for hunting. My 30-06 which I did buy for hunting only has a 20in barrel. Part of the reasoning behind that was for when hunting in areas with a lot of vegitation. Makes it easier to move through it. So no assumption at all. I know bolt guns have varying barrel lengths. But in this situation, non of them were less than 22inches. And everyone of them came out bitching about their guns getting hung up on shit left and right. Wrong "gear for the mission" so to speak.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 5:17:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 5:01:59 PM EDT
This is why I don't use a .223 for deer hunting...

I am a lifelong hunter and when the buck of a lifetime steps out of the treeline at 300 yards during modern rifle season I want to be able to cleanly take that animal. That's at least 2 times the ethical range limit of the .223 for deer... So I figure why handicap myself. I firmly believe that when an animal like that shows up the temptation for most hunters is simply too great to pass up.

A .223 can certainly be used to humanely kill deer within its limitations. These being range and shot angle. Without exception the .223 will require a classic side lung/heart shot. Problem is animals don't always cooperate in terms of how they will stand for you. With something more powerful like a .270 or a 30-06 there is no issue with this since there simply isn't a bad angle on a deer when you pack enough mass and energy to drive a projectile lengthwise through most any deer...including breaking massive bone structure. Of course with the .223 you are pretty much limited to 150 yards and less...probably 100 yards if you insist on using a 16" barrel.

If I want to add more challange to my hunt I hunt with a handgun, or a muzzleloader, or a bow. But when I carry a modern centerfire rifle I want a rifle that can get the job done out to 350-400 yards and I don't care what you put in the chamber the .223 simply isn't up to that task.

As mentioned above, shot placement is paramount and no amount of energy or caliber can make up for that.

I don't have a problem with people who hunt deer with a .223 provided they understand their limitations and have the self discipline in the field to hold off on attempting shots on that buck of a lifetime who might be 200 yards out and is otherwise a chip shot. I have a farm and let people deer hunt on it...I probably wouldn't let somone I didn't know real well hunt deer with a .223 on my farm... Its an experts gun and its ethical use on deer requires a pretty high amount of self control. Not many people can pass that test.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 6:16:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UltraReef:
I shot my first deer with my AR15 last year. Rock on!! I got a Remington 700 ADL 30.06 for xmas for next year. But if you only have an AR, I would use it.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/UltraReef/Earls_stuff/ar-deer1.jpg



Is that a 30 rnd mag?
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 6:20:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2005 6:22:26 PM EDT by Taffy223]
The law in the UK is very clear about this.
England, Wales and Scotland You can require a minimin calibre of .240

Link

In reality who is the wiser?
I don't know.

But there seems some logic here

Cheers

Taffy
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 6:37:55 PM EDT

I want a rifle that can get the job done out to 350-400 yards


That's not deer hunting, that's deer sniping. I can see how that might be fun, but it's not my thing.

I've hunted deer for 26 years (never had a season without at least 1 kill), and don't think I've shot more than a few at anything over 100 yards. My personal preference is to get close enough to kill them with bad breath, then shoot them with whatever gun I happen to be carrying.

At the ranges I kill deer, you could use pretty much any gun you want and not have to worry about killing them.

Guess it's all about the game you play, and picking the best tool for the job. Under those conditions I wouldn't use a 5.56 either.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 6:52:49 PM EDT
Bookhound, your shot will not dump that much energy into the animal. It zings right through brother. Albeit it'll probably expand some. However, if you use a bullet that would fragment violently and not fully exit, then you are dumping all the energy in the animal.

Calling M98 Code red, calling M98 code red. He's killed deer further than 300 yards with his, I know it's unbelievable, mini 14. You'd have to see it to understand it, but it's quite the set up. But he has used the 68 grain BTHP. Everyone one of you guys that go against the 223 for deer have never used it. Therefore you have almost no experience with it. Except for like I said your brothers sisters cousins inlaw twiced removed spawned from the swamp wounded a deer with a .223 and it was a cryin shame.
With the right bullet, the right shooting prowess, it is as good as any for deer. I think it's easier to shoot accurately than a .30-30 lever gun. Either way, you have to practice, practice, practice with any gun to get good. And alot of us do alot of that with our ar's therefore, there's no question what we want to take. Alot of deer hunter shoot there .30-06 once a year and can't figure out why they missed that one. I had the cross hairs on him??? Even though I yanked the hell out of the trigger because I was breathing so hard and my head hurt from drinking too much beer playing cards til 2 am because I'm such a serious hunter. Give me a break.

Longhorn, give it up, you've been acting like a nob everywhere you go.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 7:00:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By longhorn789:
Dana,

As you can see, to each his own.

There are two types of people on this forum, on this subject.

1. People that hunt game with the appropriate caliber weapon because they are responsible hunters. Their focus is the hunt.

2. People that use their AR-15 to hunt practically everything because they just like shooting their AR-15 regardless of the game. Their focus is the rifle.

Draw your own conclusions..................




there are those people who actually hunt with their ar15 and actually know wtf the round does, and how hunting works, if ya think animals should just fall over are either idiots or arm chair hunters, well they're both really, why don't the people who don't know wtf they're talking about shut up so the rest of can go on and hunt and yes I hunt for food not for trophies of because my ar is "cool", I have the strong feeling no one who has seen the damage from the diff rounds and the diff loadings will do, because a fragmenting 55gr 5.56 will do a hel of alot more damage than a 30-30 or a 270, I've SEEN IT so please you chair jockeys stfu
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 9:14:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2005 9:17:22 PM EDT by Norge1956]
To all the great white hunters that say no to the AR.

First, I always love the the Foot pounds of energy argument.

Humm - I wonder what the ft pounds of energy of a bow is ?

Another one I love if a deer is at 300 yards.. What bullshit..

Most whitetail deer are taken within a hundred yards..

If your taking a 300 yard plus shot, you better have more then a 30-30..

Everything is based on your hunting environment.

Are you gonna shoot your bow at 300 yards ?

Are you gonna take that .45 and shoot at a deer at 200 yards ?

Just use common sense...

Most deer are under 200 pounds..

Before you guys start to slam me about the godzilla's up north, I am talking average here under 200 pounds..

If you dont think a 5.56 will kill a 150-170 pound paper thin skin deer, go and stand in front of a AR15 being fired at you and say "no it wont kill me"..

I am sure that the 5.56 has killed a few big boys to include some fat iraqs too.

Another Example - Police Bullet proof vest

12 gauge shotgun

I am sure this gun has killed more deer and other large game then then all the AR15s combined.

Fired at a vest and it will not penetrate a vest.

Now for that little 5.56 bullet (that will not kill a deer - per the great hunters this site) fired from a AR15, will punch right though the vest..

Just remember, if it will kill a man - it will kill a deer..

The biggest problem with the Ar15 and hunting is the mag..

How many people are gonna go deer hunting with a mag with only 3 or 4 bullets ?

Fully loaded mag is the fastest way to JAIL unless your state game laws say it's ok...

By the way, you may also violate the law by the use of FMJ rounds.

Jail is really not the problem, but they can seize guns, gear and your vehicle for game violations- now that sucks.

Stick with the known hunting guns unless you know the exact laws.

As for me, hell no, I would go to jail. I just could no fight the temptation to have a full mag..

Now hog hunting, no problem..

Link Posted: 5/24/2005 9:20:58 PM EDT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By longhorn789:
Dana,

As you can see, to each his own.

There are two types of people on this forum, on this subject.

1. People that hunt game with the appropriate caliber weapon because they are responsible hunters. Their focus is the hunt.

2. People that use their AR-15 to hunt practically everything because they just like shooting their AR-15 regardless of the game. Their focus is the rifle.

Draw your own conclusions..................
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there are those people who actually hunt with their ar15 and actually know wtf the round does, and how hunting works, if ya think animals should just fall over are either idiots or arm chair hunters, well they're both really, why don't the people who don't know wtf they're talking about shut up so the rest of can go on and hunt and yes I hunt for food not for trophies of because my ar is "cool", I have the strong feeling no one who has seen the damage from the diff rounds and the diff loadings will do, because a fragmenting 55gr 5.56 will do a hel of alot more damage than a 30-30 or a 270, I've SEEN IT so please you chair jockeys stfu





Actually my friend, I hunt quite a bit.

So you hunt for food huh.........................................................................................................
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 9:25:52 PM EDT
I am going to do some deer hunting with my AR15 this season. You know why. Because I shoot it MUCH better than any other gun I own. I can also shoot it very well off-handed, and even southpaw.

I killed a deer with a "hollow" point 7.62x39. It did mushroom at all. I made a bad shot and the deer did suffer. I felt pretty bad about that.

I also put a lung shot into a 6 point with a 30-30. I tracked it for 200 yards and never found it. Heck I dropped one with a .410 slug when I was 13.

I plan on doing some hunting with my ar15 because It is a comfortable rifle for me. The 6 position stock will be awesome also because of our weather. Some days it will be 40's so I will dress lightly...then some mornings it will be 0 so I will have to bundle up.

As for the .22lr statement. I personally know MANY people who have killed deer cleanly with .22's.

I bought a couple boxes of winchester power point plus 64 grain for deer hunting this year.

However I also plan on doing some pistol hunting....I hope to have the money for a desert eagle very soon
Link Posted: 5/25/2005 12:59:11 AM EDT
When hunting deer with a .223 shot placement and ammunition selection are critical to success and humanely dispatching the animal. I have harvested many deer using M193, and there are certainly more "ideal" loadings than this. I tend to like the 64grn Power Point or any of the 60+ grn hollow points as there is less shrapnel to worry about in your jerky. All of the deer I harvested

with my AR using M193 were 1 shot kills, except for one which demanded a second follow up.
I have also seen a number of deer killed with .22lr and .22mags. Shot placement is everything. A missed place shot with a .223 is probably more likely to cause a serious, but not immediatly

terminal wound. This allows the animal to wonder off and suffer for days until it starves because its "sniffer" has been removed by a rifle round.I larger caliber such as a .270 somewhat reduces this possiblility. Where I am from, the AR is an extremely popular deer rifle. On the trophy board at the local gun store, there are at least 20 deer taken with ARs in .223. I am not sure which states ban the use of .223 on deer but there are probably more states that allow it than dont.
Don't let "old school" ignorance fool you, a .223 with suitible ammo and a capable operator is an excellent and effective deer rifle.
Link Posted: 5/25/2005 6:03:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:

I want a rifle that can get the job done out to 350-400 yards


That's not deer hunting, that's deer sniping. I can see how that might be fun, but it's not my thing.

I've hunted deer for 26 years (never had a season without at least 1 kill), and don't think I've shot more than a few at anything over 100 yards. My personal preference is to get close enough to kill them with bad breath, then shoot them with whatever gun I happen to be carrying.

At the ranges I kill deer, you could use pretty much any gun you want and not have to worry about killing them.

Guess it's all about the game you play, and picking the best tool for the job. Under those conditions I wouldn't use a 5.56 either.



Well, not quite. I'm still within my max point blank range with my 25-06 or .270 Win out to about 310-315 yards. Out to 400 the holdover is about 8-10" depending and you should just be able to set the horizontal crosshair on the top of the back. I don't use laser rangefinders...just the duplex in my crosshairs for range estimation. Like you the vast majority of my deer have been shot under 100 yards...but I do not hestitate to take the long shot if the opportunity presents itself. I'm more than competant with a rifle...shot into master class on the hi-power course 15 years ago. I think my longest shot on any game animal was a Chamois in the Bavarian alps...about 380 yards.

Living in Kentucky, when it comes to deer: FMJ rounds are against the law. Magazines that hold more than 5 are also against the law.

I kill a couple of deer every year with a bow...usually a few does early in the season to fill my freezer. Making an energy comparison between an arrow and a bullet is really meaningless considering how each projectile does its work. When it comes to energy and bullets it does matter! If it didn't you'd see people hunting elephant and cape buffalo with an AR...any takers? The ft/lbs of energy may be meaningless to a deer's intellect...but I promise it has an effect on his physical being.

I like getting in close as well. If I can fill my antler tag early in the year with a bow or a muzzleloader I will do so. But the truth is hunting a trophey animal is a very different proposition than harvesting a meat deer. I can take you out on my farm and virtutally any evening of the year you will come back with some venison. Finding that big buck is much more problematic. Since my job keeps me from devoting the real amount of time it takes to pattern and kill a big trophey in his back yard I find it easier to do my trophey hunting by covering more territory using optics and a decent centerfire caliber.

Here is the buck I killed last November. The range was about 280-290 paces. He was quartering away. I put the crosshairs dead on just behind the rib cage. As the shot broke he took a half step forward and the bullet ended up driving straight down his spine just under his tail (classic texas heart shot!) The gun was a .270 Winchester using handloaded 130 grain Swift Scirroco's. The bullet drove straight down his spinal column for about 15-16 inches taking out every vertabrae along the way. The deer dropped in his tracks and would have bled to death within a few minutes but since I saw him struggling I left my blind and put a finishing shot in him...not really necessary since he wasn't going anywhere.
Nothing is perfect in the hunting fields. If you hunt long enough you will loose a deer sooner or later. Anyone who says they haven't lost a deer hasn't hunted much or they aren't being honest. As above, deer don't always stand still. Things get in the way (branches etc). You lose your position just as the shot breaks....things happen.

The last three years the male deer I have shot have weighed 235 lbs, 190 lbs, and 220 lbs respectively. Most does I shoot weigh in aorund 110-120. Though I did kill a bruiser doe that went 145 two years ago.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/222135.JPG

Here's the 130 grain bullet I recovered from the same animal...I rarely recover bullets from deer (hint...when you hunt two holes are always better than one) People will disagree with that but if you hunt with guides and pros they all agree..two holes is better than one. (sorry about the fuzzy photo)
The bullet weighs 119 grains (130 original weight)

http://www.hunt101.com/img/222143.JPG

Again, I think the .223 can be used ethically on deer, as can a bow, or a handgun or a muzzleloader. In each case its not the weapon or caliber or energy that is relevant to the discussion at hand...its the practical application of those tools that makes the difference.

When you hunt, assuming you have good shot placement, you will find PENETRATION is the key to humanely killing animals...I don't care what you shoot. Arrows, lead balls, expanding copper jacketed bullets or framenting FMJ. You have to reach the vitals for a clean kill period. Like I pointed out, rarely are things perfect in the field. The .223 will work when things are perfect. I like to be able to make the shot when things aren't perfect...the size and mass of my bullets make up for less than perfect angles or ranges.
Link Posted: 5/25/2005 7:03:03 AM EDT
SickMAK90 where did you find winchester power point plus 64 grains at?
Link Posted: 5/25/2005 7:10:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dana:
I want to know how you guys feel about using a 223 for deer hunting. I live and hunt in the southeast so rang is short, about 100 to 150 at longest. The deer are about 200 pounds at best. I am willing to build a “deer” rifle but would rather not and just put the money into AR stuff. Is this a bad idea?



Personally I think .223Rem is too small for deer. VA Dept of Game and Fisheries agrees and thats why VA law states that caliber must be .23 or bigger. I used a .50 Beowulf to take an 8pt buck last year and I think if your going to use an AR for hunting you should at least use something bigger than .223, there are uppers in .243 WSSM, 6.5Grendel, .458 Socom, .50 Beowulf and others that are more than suitable for deer hunting. Where I shot this deer you can't see more than 80yds in the woods. I shot him at about 45-50yds away and it went about 10 feet and slid 10yds down a pretty steep hill. That's the entrance wound on his right shoulder. I used a 325gr JHP factory Alexander Arms round.


Link Posted: 5/25/2005 7:36:17 AM EDT
Bottom line.... it's another religous war. Plenty of folks use it with great success, but they also have to pass on oppertunities because it *is* poor on less then ideal shots with expanding ammo. If it's what you have and you are willing to accept it's limitations then use it. Here in MO you are not going into the woods and getting a 300yd shot so range is really moot, unless you like to hunt across corn fields. Past 125yds I would not use it.

I don't buy guns for hunting, I'll hunt with the guns I have. I will never practice enough with a bolt gun to get good because I don't like them. I have a DSA FAL on the way though because I would rather have a .308 for hunting, and my face hurt from the grin on it after shooting another guys FAL for a few mags, so I know I'll use it quite often.
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