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Posted: 8/26/2004 11:26:52 AM EST
I'm planning to use my CAR-15 for deer this year, for a couple reasons. First, it's the gun I carry literally daily (deputy sheriff); secondly, I recently received my suppressor (AAC M4-2000) for it, and can legally use a suppressor when hunting in my state. (Arkansas)

I recognize that the .223 isnt' the "best" deer cartridge, but I have no doubt it's more than adequate for our small whitetail. (I've yet to take a deer I couldn't drag onto the trailer or truck by myself.) I hunt with guys who still use .25-20 and even .32-20 lever guns with complete success; so I'm comfortable with the .223's limited power, if I use the right ammo.

That's my question: If given the following parameters:

- small whitetail deer (less than 200 lbs)
- short-range woods hunting (never a shot past 70-80 yards)
- short CAR-length barrel

what ammo would you choose, if you had your choice of any in the world...?

I'm leaning toward a lighter-weight bullet, primarily due to the short barrel. My regular defensive load is the Federal 55-grain Ballistic Tip (first up in the gun, along with spare mags of 55-grain Rem softpoints, and 55-grain fmj Q3131A)

I'm really not yet resolved on the "lighter for max energy" or "heavier for max mass" debate. For defense, I like the 55's in this barrel length; for hunting, I have no experience to base a decision on.

My main deer guns in the past have been a "scouterized" weatherby in .308, and a little lever gun in .357 magnum; both work fine, although the .308 is much more than necessary for our size game.

Any opinions would be welcome.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:40:23 AM EST
If you can guarantee an instant kill with a head shot, then you are probably fine with anything.

I would suggest that you find some Winchester Supreme Power-Point Plus, or get some Winchester 64 grain Power Point bullets and load them yourself.

The 55 gr, Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw would be a good round as well.

Make sure your ranges are short, and your targets are broadside. Only go for a headshot if you are capable!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:41:04 AM EST
The general consensus seems to be the Winchester 64gr Power Point Plus for Deer.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:42:38 PM EST
Thanks; I'll check out Winchester's website.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:44:34 PM EST
i use a remmy model 7 and winchester silver ballistic tips, knocks e down every time
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:04:27 PM EST
I USED A 64 GRAIN WINCHESTER POWER POINT LAST YEAR DROP LIKE A ROCK AT 40 YARDS IN THE KILL ZONE
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:09:18 PM EST
Hey New Guy
Be sure to post some pics of your hunt!
I get a real kick out of it .
So if you get your deer and take some pics, post'em and let me know!
Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:37:00 PM EST
If you go into the general heading then the hunting forum, I'm getting some feedback there. I've never used mine yet but I took it last year. Mine is a 20" though. I think most soft points and such are good choices. Danger Ranger uses 60 grain soft points with his 11.5" but I don't know if he's taken deer with it or not. I forget. Hey by the way danger ranger. I got a copy of the hunting regs in alabama. $77 for out of state license. What do you think? Do you usually see deer when you go? What county do you usually hunt in? Anyways back to the topic. Probably the 64's would be a great choice too. Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:53:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By bumpkin:
Hey New Guy
Be sure to post some pics of your hunt!
I get a real kick out of it .
So if you get your deer and take some pics, post'em and let me know!
Thanks in advance.hr


Might do that. I'm looking forward to pulling out the suppressed CAR at camp, while everyone else drags out the Win 94's and slug guns that are always there. (I'm ornery that way. he
Very surprisingly to me was the accuracy with the ciener unit, at least with this load. It's the second most accurate .22 rifle I own; second only to a CZ bolt-action. With the CAR's 1-in-9 twist and short barrel, I didn't expect much accuracy, but it just BURIES my 10-22 accuracy-wise. Go figure; just one of those fortunate combinations of gun & ammo, I guess. Other ammo functions fine out of the .22 unit, but most aren't nearly as accurate as these 38-grain hp remington subsonics.

(Now if I could just get the paperwork back on my second suppressed gun; a Ruger Mk2 that's getting a 7" Norrell-licensed integral suppressor job. )
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 9:12:43 AM EST
Federal 55-grain Game King (BTHP) will do the trick with good, broadside hits. I tested the same on an 150-pound wild sow, and hit her on the run about 8" behind the shoulder and 4" below the top of the back. Not a good shot, but it just anchored her. That bullet is capable of penetrating 11" of ballistic gelatin after penetrating heavy clothing. The 64-grain PSP is a good bullet, too, based upon personal observation. The .223 is not as forgiving with quartering shots as the heavier calibers (.260 and greater) are.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 11:29:21 AM EST
Winchester Supreme 64 gr Power Point Plus is a good load for what you want. The Federal Premium 55 gr Trophy Bonded is also good. I'd stay with something like this and away from the lighter 50 and 55 gr bullets. They just don't have the penetration to be ideal, especially consdering a .223 is already a marginal choice for deer to begin with.

-CH
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 12:59:16 PM EST
Well We are not allowed to use sucha samall round up here. But the pictures sound cool

Head lines "Look Rosie, it is for hunting"

A picture of a nice 8 point and a suppresed car15, great for PETA and anti gun people everywhere :)
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:49:54 PM EST
It does paint a pretty picture don't it!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:03:41 PM EST
Neck Neck Neck
Shot placement is the key.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:06:31 PM EST
New_guy please check in at the Arkansas hometown form, it's like a ghost town and I try (vainly) to get it riled up every once and awhile.

Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:08:27 AM EST
I took a young buck about 120 lbs with a hornady 60 hp this year neck shot at about 120-130 rangefinder difficuties. Droped it like a rock handloaded with ramshot powder
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:42:05 AM EST
Hello:

Although some guys recommend NOT using 5.56 for deer, I tried it last year in Texas.

I had read that most recommend the Winchester 64gr power point, but I got some Black Hills blue box 60gr. soft point.

I shot two deer...both adult does...
Deer #1: She was standing broadside at 110yards, and using open sights and a rest while seated, put one behind the shoulder, through the heart. She dropped on the spot.

Deer #2: She was standing broadside at 50 yards, and using open sights while standing offhand, aimed behind the shoulder, but the bullet hit the spine at the base of the neck. She fell on the spot, and after about 20sec. of kicking around, she expired.

Deer #2 shot was fortunate, in that I did not hit point of aim, but got lucky with the spine shot. Perhaps of the bullet went somewhere else, I would have wounded her only.

My thinking is that use the 5.56 ONLY if you are confident in hitting the body vitals, or a head shot.

My rig is a 16" HBAR RRA A4 with back up iron sights. I can keep a tight group from a rest at 100 yards, tight enough to feel confortable shooting these rather small TX deer. The offhand shot, in retrospect, was a bad decision that worked out well anyway. Another time, and it probably would not have worked out so well.

Link Posted: 8/28/2004 10:04:42 AM EST
Yeah, but a lousy shot even with a larger caliber is a lousy shot. If you use a .30-06 150 grain, psp and you don't hit it where you want it, it still may go through and not do much damage. Especially if you gut shoot it. But just abot any caliber is going to drop it if you hit it in the spine. At least with a fragmenting bullet you have some "collateral damage" so to speak. I think way too much emphasis is put on larger calibers for deer size game. But to each his own. Good job with the 60's last year. I think it's a good choice.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:33:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By okguy91:
I USED A 64 GRAIN WINCHESTER POWER POINT LAST YEAR DROP LIKE A ROCK AT 40 YARDS IN THE KILL ZONE hr



+1
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:19:57 PM EST
I've seen where plain old SS109's work great. They go clean through even the sholder bones. and leave a nice size exit hole.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 7:31:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Beta:
Federal 55-grain Game King (BTHP) will do the trick with good, broadside hits. I tested the same on an 150-pound wild sow, and hit her on the run about 8" behind the shoulder and 4" below the top of the back. Not a good shot, but it just anchored her. That bullet is capable of penetrating 11" of ballistic gelatin after penetrating heavy clothing. The 64-grain PSP is a good bullet, too, based upon personal observation. The .223 is not as forgiving with quartering shots as the heavier calibers (.260 and greater) are.



Can you give a post mortem analysis on the terminal performance of this bullet on your 150 lbs hog? I am currently using the Sierra 55gr BTHP Gameking bullet in some of my reloads and I am curious for more details of your results with this bullet. I also am finding this bullet to be extremely accurate in all my rifles.
Thanks, Stephen
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 7:56:48 AM EST
Winchester supreme power point plus, the 64gr winchester powerpoint.
PMC makes a 64gr sp
Black hills makes a 60gr sp they also have a 60gr partitian load.
I got a buddy that swars by 55gr ballistictips.


Shot placment is the key, but you already know that.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 8:04:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2004 8:09:53 AM EST by GunDealer3]
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 10:36:15 AM EST
gundealer3, what do you mean by that suppressor thing. Rifle bullets aren't subsonic. The bullet will hit before the sound. Or do you mean the sound scares the others away? Yeah I suppose that makes sense, eh.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:58:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By GunDealer3:
...I use Federal Premium 55 grain NOSLER Ballistic Tip and I can make clean shots at 120 yards.

GunDealer3

Edited to add: Wish we could hunt with suppressors in FL. The deer wouldn't stand a chance.




The 55-grain Ballistic Tip is my primary defensive load in this gun (first mag up), and either it or the Win 64PP+ will be what I use.

This is my first year with the suppressor; looking forward to it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:35:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By New_guy:

The 55-grain Ballistic Tip is my primary defensive load in this gun (first mag up), and either it or the Win 64PP+ will be what I use.



Check the grouping of the Win 64PP+ before you settle on it. I bought some of the PP+, the regular Win 64PP, and some Federal Hi-Shok 64 SP. I don't know if the Lubalox coating they put on the PP+ did it or what, but they didn't group worth squat out of my 16" RRA upper. The regular PP did better, but the Federal 64gr Hi-Shoks were the tightest. I'll be using either the Federal 64 or some Black Hills 68gr BTHP, which grouped just as well and may cause more damage to the vitals.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:05:31 PM EST
The Winnie CHP load is the constant as it holds together.

Another option you might try and has been proven by handloaders(Mostly singleshot handgun hunters, but all the same) is the new Cor-Bon 53gr DPX load, using the Barnes X-Bullet.

Havn't shot anything but Gelatin and a single woodchuck with it yet, but in Gel it has the petals breaking off and creating 3 seconadary wound channels at about 6' into the gell, with the core continuing on the intial wound path for approx 16".

I will caution however that with ANY load in .223 on deer, or humans for that matter, placement and bullet path are the key.

Please share your notes on the hunt no matter the load.


Thanks!
S-28
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 8:32:07 AM EST
Siglite-

The 150-pound wild hog I shot suffered no damage to her heart, spine, lungs, or liver. It was night, she was on a dead run, and I hit her in the guts. She was immobilized, and I then shot her in the head.

I have seen pigs shot in the same general area with a .270 make it into the brush and go 75 yards.

The only thing that I would feel totally comfortable saying is that significant penetration took place. If you ever skinned a wild pig, their hide is like a very thick, mushy, heavy leather jacket with coarse hair on the outside. Just field dressing one dulls my knife noticeably.

Link Posted: 9/1/2004 10:21:33 AM EST
We use the 64gr. PPs for the feral Goat here in Hawaii. Only the biggest get much over 100lbs. Power Point performance has always been good, with consistent reliable expansion even in the short barrel AR's we use. The bullet has always exited the goats, although even quatering shots on goats don't have more then 12 inches of path through the body. Most times we can get close enough for a head or neck shot though.

Muzzle velocity with our handloads is only about 2820 in the 16" barrels. I wish I could get some of the Military M855 powder. We could boost velocity by over 100 fps.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 12:15:31 PM EST
I have taken two deer using the winnie power point out of my 20" A2 rifle. One dropped in its tracks at about 120 yds, the other took two shots at abotu 40yds. I will be using the same rifle/load again this year.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:54:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Beta:
Siglite-

The 150-pound wild hog I shot suffered no damage to her heart, spine, lungs, or liver. It was night, she was on a dead run, and I hit her in the guts. She was immobilized, and I then shot her in the head.

I have seen pigs shot in the same general area with a .270 make it into the brush and go 75 yards.

The only thing that I would feel totally comfortable saying is that significant penetration took place. If you ever skinned a wild pig, their hide is like a very thick, mushy, heavy leather jacket with coarse hair on the outside. Just field dressing one dulls my knife noticeably.




I have shot hogs with rifles ,pistols, and my bow and arrows. I agree that hogs do have a tough skin covered by coarse tough hair normally layered with mud. I always carry several really sharp knives in the truck because a muddy hog can dull a knife pretty quick. The only hog that I have killed with a .223 rifle I shot in the ear with my LTR using a 55 grain Berger bullet. I plan on using my AR as soon as the summer heat goes away. I like the Sierra 55 BTHP Gameking because it is super accurate in my rifles. You are the second person that has commented on how tough this bullet is for a hollowpoint.
Thanks for posting your experience.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:44:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 4:46:15 AM EST by Wood]
I've taken several feral hogs and 3 deer with various .223 loads from a CZ 527 with mixed results. In my personal experience the 64 gr. Winchester load did not penetrate deeply enough for my tastes. Did it kill what I shot with it? Yes, but when a bullet only penetrates one lung on a 110 pound doe I would hesitate to use it frequently. I've had excellent results with the trophy bonded load from Federal and even better performance with a handloaded 60 gr. partition. Because you are using a 16" barreled carbine, you may have better performance from the 64 gr. power point than I did due to the slower velocity. One can debate the issue of .22 centerfires on deer for days, but I think all will agree that when doing so using a well-constructed bullet and placing it properly is the key. My recommendation would be the trophy bonded load, and keep the range to one where you're comfortable placing the shot with absolute confidence. If you can handload some 60 gr. partitions, you will be even better prepared. Good luck.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:59:39 PM EST
Another vote for the 64 grain Winchester Power Point varaints. Took a good-sized Mulie last year from about 125 yards off-hand. Took out both shoulders, both lungs, and blew about the top third out of the heart in a V-shape. There was an exit wound. The buck jumped at the shot and then crumpled downhill about ten yards into a bush. He was done.
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