What are some of your opinions about deer hunting with an AR-15 and .223 ammo.  I got a box of winchester .223, 64 grain, dual stage expansion that is rated for deer and black bear.  I have cleared the weapon and ammo for deer hunting by the utah department of wildlife, but will it really do the job ethicaly?  Thanks

Should take on a deer just fine. If anyone says otherwise, they're wrong. Misinformation and ballistic stupidity is a bitch.

 Right on, yea I've been getting a lot of crap from people on other forums and things about it not being legal in utah, or even ethical.  But the Utah department of wildlife doesn't think so. What a great rifle this is, and what a great hunting rifle it will make.  I do understand it is a small caliber bullet, but with a 64 grain bullet, and dual stage expansion, I think there should be no problem.  

i plan on doign the same this year. only with a slightly different setup. but i have killed deer in the past with .223 no problem.

IMO there is nothing wrong with taking deer with .223.  I grew up on a farm and killed everything with a 22LR.

While I don't recommend it, the above is true - you can even kill deer with a .22LR.  My uncle killed a deer with a .22LR a few years ago.  He was hunting squirrels in his yard during deer season, and the deer nearly plowed over him.

It's all about range - I wouldn't shoot a deer with a .223 of any bullet type at over 100 yards.

Quoted: Should take on a deer just fine. If anyone says otherwise, they're wrong. Misinformation and ballistic stupidity is a bitch.

I wouldn't know, but it seems you are very familiar with it.

I understand that you east coasters have deer no bigger than our coyotes, but why hunt any animal with the bare minimum? It's not like there aren't better choices. There isn't a ban on larger calibers.

So use something that ensures a clean kill. Even for our Cous Deer (very small) people use at least a 243.

The only issue I'd have is Utah deer are big.  If you were in Maine, no worries.

Just ensure good shot placement.  

Respect your quarry more than massage your ego.  Use a proper weapon, not a stunt gun.

Hey,    

we get some pretty big boys up here once in a while.  My buddy shot an eight pointer last year that dressed out at 215lbs.

ID second what MudBug said,

If you can shoot it with something bigger and you shoot that gun well, Id say go with something bigger...On my ranch in Nebraska, we have both Whitetails and Mulies...and theres NO WAY ID go after either with a 223...I hunt with my AR's for predators, but when it comes to ethics and a good CLEAN KILL, it is possible to do so with a 223. but come on, lets face it, in MOST STATES where one cannot hunt over bait, like in NE, deer dont often present the clearest shot oppertunities, therefore, I like to take them with something that will give me the extra confidence that IF I dont get off a good shot, yet still hit them, they wont go far and or wont suffer.  A POORLY placed 223 shot can often lead to a wounded deer that will run a lot further then you realize or be able to track.  A well placed 223 shot will do the job. But you have to know your limits etc. TRULY this discussion "is 223 right for deer/hogs: depends on ALOT:

1. the person shooting, comfortable with his ablilites to make a good clean kill with the minimum caliber offered by law?
2. is the person hutning over bait etc, to ensure a nice shot presentation (it matters in some states folks, Texas loves there baiting...Im not a fan of it, but they wont hunt deer any other way it seems...)
3. Is the person able to and WILLING to track a wounded animal for hours and possibly miles in an effort to alievate any pain due to a possible poor shot.

IM not for or against 223 for deer. Its legal in some states and not in others. In Nebraska, they rate things based on caliber, 243 and higher only, but thats because we got big bucks on in the Mid-West, all the corn and fresh air...


While living in Texas, the deer there are big, but they dont have the body mass NEAR the mid west or North country deer.
So I would say if you think you will be going after small deer (body wise NOT RACK WISE, I WONT EVEN START ON THAT) and you will have some great shot chances (deer presenting themselves and standing still, broadside etc) then sure, give the 223 a whirl! and Post a report back in the Hunting section with the score!

If you have not done alot of hunting with the 223 to know what you can and cant do with it as a hunter then, go with the old trusty 270 or 7 mag or whatnot, they are proven deer rounds, heck Id love to take a deer with a 22-250, but I dont know, something bothers me about the size of the deer around me and the little 64 grain bullet...I think Ill stick to my 300 Wby mag.

Granted one can never know for sure if deer will give a clear shot op or not(another great reason to go with something a little more hefty then a 223...), but again if baiting etc are the conditions, the chance is good for a nice clear broad side shot which will ensure better op for ideal shot placement, if not and your hunting in dense brush etc, Id take a bursh gun, 45-70 or the like, open prairie...I like a flat shooting Mag. It all is really dependant on the situation.


Id say your doing the right thing by asking for peoples opinions, some will say NEVER to the 223, some say OF COURSE ITS FINE, I think its very situation dependant on if and when ID use a 223 for deer. Now you mentioned bear...theres no way, Id go after black bear in UT with a 223 even with Federal bonded bear claws or Hornady interbonds...Id much rather have something in the 30 Cal range, 300 Mags, 338-06, 35 Rem, heck even Hornady's 30-30 leverRev is proving to be very VERY potent and Im sure we will see more reports of it falling black bears.
Best of luck and I hope you get your deer with whatever round you take out in the field this fall!

I killed a deer at 40 yards with a 64 grain win in 223 out a 20'' hbar . he didn't move 1" forward or backwards just went down. If that is want you are going  to use are ok with pasting on a deer or bear till you have the right shot placement and are under 100 yards.

though imho its ceratinly not optimal it would do the job if the shooter does his job with the right ammo at short ranges.

in TX i very much prefer something a little larger, ie .30-06'/.308/.243/etc.

it would sure be a drag to lose a trophy buck ya woulda had with a '06.

If it were legal here I would do it.

Shit, if it were legal to shoot anything other than coyotes, I would.

----------- okguy91 -----------
I killed a deer at 40 yards with a 64 grain win in 223 out a 20'' hbar . he didn't move 1" forward or backwards just went down. If that is want you are going to use are ok with pasting on a deer or bear till you have the right shot placement and are under 100 yards.
-----------

Doesn't that simply indicate that you made a shot on the shoulder bone/joint?

Here are two articles I found and posted in the past.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/centerfire_22_biggame/

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/articles/bullet_bone/Bullethitsbone.html

I see no problem with the .223 for whitetails.  Just make shure you have good shot placement.  I use the .223 Nosler Partition 60 gr.  I think that you just need to make shure you buy game specific ammo.  The Winchester ammo you listed should do very well.

Both my father and grandfather have killed deer with the .22 LR.  So yes, the .223 will do it.  I have killed lots of deer, the smallest caliber I've used is the .243.  My current deer gun is a Safari Grade Browning BAR in 300 WSM.  While it's OK, I let the outdoor writers convince me that the 7 Mag was far inferior and that I needed the 300 WSM.  I traded a Belgium Browning BAR 7 for the 300.

Now I wish I hadn't.  I've owned lots of guns in lots of calibers, 22, 223, 243, 270, 30-30, 308, 30-06, 7 Mag, 300 Mag, and now the 300 WSM.  Out of all of them, I'd rather the 7 Mag.  Just my 2 cents.

No, I'll stick with my .270 Win. bolt gun. The deer around here are probably small enough, but anything smaller than .243 may be illegal but I'm not sure. People around here like to use too much gun. The .300 Win. Mag. is popular, as well as the newer WSM cartridges. I think that's insane to shoot such a powerful round when something smaller will do, but to each his own.  The problem is that some of these dumbasses think a poor shot with a larger caliber is just as good as a well placed shot with a smaller one.

Quoted: ----------- okguy91 ----------- I killed a deer at 40 yards with a 64 grain win in 223 out a 20'' hbar . he didn't move 1" forward or backwards just went down. If that is want you are going to use are ok with pasting on a deer or bear till you have the right shot placement and are under 100 yards. ----------- Doesn't that simply indicate that you made a shot on the shoulder bone/joint?

I have seen the same effect using .223 on a neck shot just forward from the shoulder. The bullet shattered the base of her spine and the then tore out the far artery. She was DRT.

Bob

Quoted: Quoted: Should take on a deer just fine. If anyone says otherwise, they're wrong. Misinformation and ballistic stupidity is a bitch. I wouldn't know, but it seems you are very familiar with it. I understand that you east coasters have deer no bigger than our coyotes, but why hunt any animal with the bare minimum? It's not like there aren't better choices. There isn't a ban on larger calibers. So use something that ensures a clean kill. Even for our Cous Deer (very small) people use at least a 243.

EXACTLY!  These doapy rednecks that want to take their ARs out and mame animals make me sick.  There's got to be a better way to satisfy your Viet Nam fantasies.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Should take on a deer just fine. If anyone says otherwise, they're wrong. Misinformation and ballistic stupidity is a bitch. I wouldn't know, but it seems you are very familiar with it. I understand that you east coasters have deer no bigger than our coyotes, but why hunt any animal with the bare minimum? It's not like there aren't better choices. There isn't a ban on larger calibers. So use something that ensures a clean kill. Even for our Cous Deer (very small) people use at least a 243. EXACTLY!  These doapy rednecks that want to take their ARs out and mame animals make me sick.  There's got to be a better way to satisfy your Viet Nam fantasies.

I hate the term "Redneck" with a passion, but for the record I plan to hunt with a 6.8 SPC AR this coming season, after years of using the 30-06 dedicatedly.

And while I don't have faith doing it, I've heard of several different hunters here who have hit deer with Mini-14s, and every one said "dead right there."
I believe the .223 can be an excellent cartridge, but I don't have faith in it for anything but a perfect shot. Management property here are over hunted, and a legal animal is far and few inbetween. Bigger is better for me.
Now if I had a farm or piece of land where I was the only hunter, and had the option of passing on an animal without fear of never seeing him again, that'd be another story.

Here's my .02,

I have hunted deer with a Remington .222 bolt before succesfully. In MI we get big deer. especially in the U.P. Now Shot placement is absolutely crucial with such a small caliber IMO, I always took temple shots never out past 120yds or so. It was all that was available to me to hunt with at the time, so I made due.
I do use either 6.8SPC or .308 now, not due to fact of losing any deer either, just more reliable and I get to keep the racks and mount W/O a bullet hole in the head if a nice one decides to walk in front of my gun.

I you feel comforttable enough with your shot place ment go ahead and use the .223, I'd suggest at least a Trophy bonded Bear Claw from Federal, or something heavy like 68-77gr bullets, I still wouldn't take a heart shot though, not much of a blood trail to follow.

Quoted: Here's my .02, I have hunted deer with a Remington .222 bolt before succesfully. In MI we get big deer. especially in the U.P. Now Shot placement is absolutely crucial with such a small caliber IMO, I always took temple shots never out past 120yds or so. It was all that was available to me to hunt with at the time, so I made due. I do use either 6.8SPC or .308 now, not due to fact of losing any deer either, just more reliable and I get to keep the racks and mount W/O a bullet hole in the head if a nice one decides to walk in front of my gun. I you feel comforttable enough with your shot place ment go ahead and use the .223, I'd suggest at least a Trophy bonded Bear Claw from Federal, or something heavy like 68-77gr bullets, I still wouldn't take a heart shot though, not much of a blood trail to follow.

I hate people that use less than adequate calibers and count on headshots. You would to if you had ever seen a deer struggling through the woods on his last bit of energy, dying of starvation and dehydration because a large part of his face has been blown off by some "Uber" Hunter's sniper tactics.

I hate the term "Redneck" with a passion

Howdy, I are one.  I hunt, fish, and own a 4wheel drive.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Should take on a deer just fine. If anyone says otherwise, they're wrong. Misinformation and ballistic stupidity is a bitch. I wouldn't know, but it seems you are very familiar with it. I understand that you east coasters have deer no bigger than our coyotes, but why hunt any animal with the bare minimum? It's not like there aren't better choices. There isn't a ban on larger calibers. So use something that ensures a clean kill. Even for our Cous Deer (very small) people use at least a 243. EXACTLY!  These doapy rednecks that want to take their ARs out and mame animals make me sick.  There's got to be a better way to satisfy your Viet Nam fantasies.

Umm... .223 does more tissue damage than most .30 rounds. The reason you shouldn't take, say a moose with it is because penetration. But .223 has more than enough penetration to take a deer. So, .30 is more likely to maim than .223.

Yes its fine. Shot placement Is Key. I would go with a larger round like the 75 or 77Gr SMK. They will do the trick fine.

If you can consistently put the bullet where it counts it'lll do the job PERIOD!   If your game laws say you can, and your confident in your abilities go for it.   I might try it at some point, but I have other larger calibers that work so well that it's difficult for me to try.

Just please don't try head shots, even with larger calibers it too often ends up with an injured animal that gets away.   I've seen a few does with lower jaws blown off because of some dumbass trying for a head shot and screwing it up.   Think about it, if any part of the deers body is going to move, other than the tail, it's the head.

If my wife goes with me deer hunting at some point, that is what she probably use.

Illegal in Virginia (6mm/.243 or bigger), and I wouldn't do it anyway.  I've used .30-06 in a Savage 111 and M-1 Garand in the past, this year I am building a 6.5 Grendel M4gery for deer.

Quoted: I hate the term "Redneck" with a passion Howdy, I are one.  I hunt, fish, and own a 4wheel drive.

Ditto that.

Quoted: ----------- okguy91 ----------- I killed a deer at 40 yards with a 64 grain win in 223 out a 20'' hbar . he didn't move 1" forward or backwards just went down. If that is want you are going to use are ok with pasting on a deer or bear till you have the right shot placement and are under 100 yards. ----------- Doesn't that simply indicate that you made a shot on the shoulder bone/joint?

I the shot place was at a angle shot be 12'' behind front leg came out on top of  left sholder blade.
                       
                        deer



                                              me

No but, I want to get a .50 Beowulf to carry instead of my 12GA slug gun in heavy brush.

Other then that I use a .30-06 bolt action.

Quoted: Quoted: Here's my .02, I have hunted deer with a Remington .222 bolt before succesfully. In MI we get big deer. especially in the U.P. Now Shot placement is absolutely crucial with such a small caliber IMO, I always took temple shots never out past 120yds or so. It was all that was available to me to hunt with at the time, so I made due. I do use either 6.8SPC or .308 now, not due to fact of losing any deer either, just more reliable and I get to keep the racks and mount W/O a bullet hole in the head if a nice one decides to walk in front of my gun. I you feel comforttable enough with your shot place ment go ahead and use the .223, I'd suggest at least a Trophy bonded Bear Claw from Federal, or something heavy like 68-77gr bullets, I still wouldn't take a heart shot though, not much of a blood trail to follow. I hate people that use less than adequate calibers and count on headshots. You would to if you had ever seen a deer struggling through the woods on his last bit of energy, dying of starvation and dehydration because a large part of his face has been blown off by some "Uber" Hunter's sniper tactics.

READ ABOVE HIGHLIGHTS
Thank you for reading about my "UBER Sniper tactics" I did what I was told to do and didn't miss, you don't have to like it.

I've taken several deer in Oregon with my AR's.

Wichester Supreme 55 grain ballistic tip. End of story.

Not one deer of 4-5 took 1 step after getting hit even when running. Simply put, it blows them up. Farily large hole goin in, liquified heart/lungs and huge holes coming out. Big time.

I would suggest aiming for the neck/breast plate as I do and watch the red mist in your scope. I've had two knocked completely off their feet with hoves visible in the scope just afte r the mist.

Awesome, simply devastating. I moved up to a .243 with soft points cause i was trashing them so bad. Closest shot 40 yards, longest was 200 yards.

If you hunt deer, do it.  You wont forget the experience, and you will learn the true killing power of your AR. With Ballistic Tips they are NASTY.

My little brother started hunting deer with a Rem Model Seven in .223 using some of my dad's reloads.  I don't know the gr, but it was a soft point.

He never once lost a deer in the six years that he used that rifle.

In TX, the legal requirement is that the round be center fire.

Enough of this shot placement bullshit. Any place you'd hit with a .308 to kill a deer, .223 will also do the same. Why is this so hard to understand? Any place you'd NOT kill a deer with .223, .308 will also do the same!

If you haveto hun with the AR platfrom  why no try an AR10 type? still the AR stle but you get ahella lt more knock down power. Please dont think that i dont think 5.56 is "good enough", i havenever had to follow a blood trail yet and i dont want to start.

personaly i think .308 is the best all around cal; good enough for groundhogs all the way up to people(deer are inbetween there)

Elk....sure, but i would not go any smaller(308)

just my .02

Quoted: Enough of this shot placement bullshit. Any place you'd hit with a .308 to kill a deer, .223 will also do the same. Why is this so hard to understand? Any place you'd NOT kill a deer with .223, .308 will also do the same!

+1 All the ballistic data I have seen shows this.  As long as you shoot at a close enough range that you have fragmentation, I dodn't see a problem.

Here are two articles I found and posted in the past.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/centerfire_22_biggame/

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/articles/bullet_bone/Bullethitsbone.html

I see no problem with the .223 for whitetails. Just make shure you have good shot placement. I use the .223 Nosler Partition 60 gr. I think that you just need to make shure you buy game specific ammo.

Quoted: Quoted: Enough of this shot placement bullshit. Any place you'd hit with a .308 to kill a deer, .223 will also do the same. Why is this so hard to understand? Any place you'd NOT kill a deer with .223, .308 will also do the same! +1 All the ballistic data I have seen shows this.  As long as you shoot at a close enough range that you have fragmentation, I dodn't see a problem.

You have to understand the limitations of the round.  Shooting a whitetail deer at 400yds because that is the shot you have available is probably not ideal in .223.

There will be folks who attempt it with their AR, because they know it throws a death laser, but they may be rewarded with a long hike/track and no deer meat.

The margin of error is smaller with the smaller calibers on larger game.

If the bullet doesn't perform precisely as designed, you may have problems -- in any caliber, but even more so when you use small calibers up the line in terms of weight of the game animal.

I would use a .223 if legal, and all I had, but probably wouldn't shoot over 100yds.

Umm... .223 does more tissue damage than most .30 rounds.

Are you seriously stating that ANY .223 will do more tissue damage than a soft point .30 caliber bullet fired out of a .308, 30-06, 300WM etc...? Did the laws of physics get reprieved?
Most people don't use .30 FMJ for hunting.

Quoted: If you can consistently put the bullet where it counts it'lll do the job PERIOD!

With a few minor, BUT CRITICAL exceptions.  You MUST be cognizant of your distance to target.  If you are using fragmenting projectiles this could make or break the hunt/kill.

If you are using expanding type projectiles you may end up with no expansion and just a nice .224" hole.

You sound competent, but others reading your post may not be.

I hunt in FL, and as many know, our deer aren't exactly Wisconsin monsters. Most of my shots are 200 yds and closer. That being said, I have used 73 gr. berger from black hills to great effect in the past, and this season I'll be making the switch to the uncannelured 556-17Tactical from HSM. I am more than confident in my setup and my marksmanship.

Btw, I have some pics (not digital) from last season---the killin potential of the .223 was quite obvious. The vitals looked like they had been forced through a blender.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Should take on a deer just fine. If anyone says otherwise, they're wrong. Misinformation and ballistic stupidity is a bitch. I wouldn't know, but it seems you are very familiar with it. I understand that you east coasters have deer no bigger than our coyotes, but why hunt any animal with the bare minimum? It's not like there aren't better choices. There isn't a ban on larger calibers. So use something that ensures a clean kill. Even for our Cous Deer (very small) people use at least a 243. EXACTLY!  These doapy rednecks that want to take their ARs out and mame animals make me sick.  There's got to be a better way to satisfy your Viet Nam fantasies.

Let me ask you this.  Why is it ok to shoot a deer that is in range and offers a broad side shot with a bow and arrow, but not a .223?  I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

This is the thing that pisses me off!  Avid bow hunters telling me and others that my .223 isn't "enough" to kill a deer.  Yet they will lob an arrow 50 yards at a buck that is trotting away from them.

Can you please explain this to me?

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Good point

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Should take on a deer just fine. If anyone says otherwise, they're wrong. Misinformation and ballistic stupidity is a bitch. I wouldn't know, but it seems you are very familiar with it. I understand that you east coasters have deer no bigger than our coyotes, but why hunt any animal with the bare minimum? It's not like there aren't better choices. There isn't a ban on larger calibers. So use something that ensures a clean kill. Even for our Cous Deer (very small) people use at least a 243. EXACTLY!  These doapy rednecks that want to take their ARs out and mame animals make me sick.  There's got to be a better way to satisfy your Viet Nam fantasies. Let me ask you this.  Why is it ok to shoot a deer that is in range and offers a broad side shot with a bow and arrow, but not a .223?  I JUST DON'T GET IT!!! This is the thing that pisses me off!  Avid bow hunters telling me and others that my .223 isn't "enough" to kill a deer.  Yet they will lob an arrow 50 yards at a buck that is trotting away from them. Can you please explain this to me?

I guarantee you that less than 3% of "avid bow hunters" (in fact, I wouldn't even call them a "bow hunter" if they did this) would even take a shot at a deer trotting away from them at 50 yards.  

Quoted: Yes its fine. Shot placement Is Key. I would go with a larger round like the 75 or 77Gr SMK. They will do the trick fine.

Match Kings aren't designed to expand into animals reliably, only to hit paper and make a hole accurately, I would advise against it , esp. when you are only using a marginal caliber to begin with.  

It may work, but you owe it to the animal to use the correct tools for the job.

Never use anything less than a 300 ultra mag! especially with these gigantic Florida deer

I've taken an AR for deer and carried 77gr SMK homebrews.  Unfortunately I have been presented with no shots while carrying an AR.  

Last year a buddy of mine intercepted a deer that I was planning to harvest using his own AR.  He used the 64gr Win round you described out of a 16" 1/7 barrel.  It was an 80 or so yard shot, at dusk, using iron sights.  One shot to the vitals.  The deer made it about 10yds before it dropped like a sack of potatos.  Better than most bow kills, which is perfectly acceptable in my book.  

As has been stated, load selection and shot placement are key.

Quoted: Let me ask you this.  Why is it ok to shoot a deer that is in range and offers a broad side shot with a bow and arrow, but not a .223?  I JUST DON'T GET IT!!! This is the thing that pisses me off!  Avid bow hunters telling me and others that my .223 isn't "enough" to kill a deer.  Yet they will lob an arrow 50 yards at a buck that is trotting away from them. Can you please explain this to me?

So let's compare realistic outside distances for both:

Even at 80yds-100yds, if you were able to actually hit the deer with an arrow -- which I couldn't -- the arrow will still pass all the way through it.  Unless you hit spine, or the shoulder or hip.  The typical broad head presents quite a permanent wound channel through and through.  All the way through.

If you shot a deer at 300-400yds with a .223 you have no idea what the bullet will do on impact.  Will it expand?  Fragment?  Penetrate enough to strike vitals??

So long as you understand the limitations of .223 on deer sized game there shouldn't be a problem.

Too many folks post on here that it's a "sure thing", can't fail, etc...I'd just like to make sure we don't have fucktards out there taking that type of bullshit literally and taking STUPID shots with a small for game size projectile.

Quoted: It's all about range - I wouldn't shoot a deer with a .223 of any bullet type at over 100 yards.

+1

I wouldn't do it at all, because I don't like taking a chance that I would wound a deer and end up having to track it. I've never tracked one and never plan to (with the exception of bow hunting, which kind of makes me a hypocrit).

If you have another rifle, I would use it. Personally .270 Win. and .30-06 are the meat and tater guns that I grew up on, and won't ever change. Good luck.

ETA, as far as it being said that a .30 is more likely to maim than a .223, my fucking ass. I'm sorry, but I won't let that go.

HEAD SHOTS: I've seen pics posted of some uber commando who only took head shots with his AR, then double tapped them in the neck with his 9mm to finish them. That pisses me off more than I could ever express. To me headshots are risky, tasteless and imhumane.  I will NEVER even make an attemp to shoot for the head and I would never recommend it.

Wow! What a thread...

I guess the biggest thing to pull away from what everyone has said is this:

Know your limitations and do not exceed them.

This is true for all hunters in all locations, with any weapon type, and in all circumstances. I believe that with the right load the .223 from AR is acceptable for most deer hunting. However, the limitations can be size of animal, range, and type of shot. I would not shoot at the ass-end of an Elk at 500 yards while it is trotting away. However in my tree stand, Bambi at 50 yards broadside will be dinner that night, thanks to my AR with the appropriate load.

As always, caveat emptor & YMMV.