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Posted: 12/28/2002 4:24:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2002 4:25:43 AM EST by Zardoz]
Well, I've had 2 (both of which I sold--idiot), and will soon be getting a third, which will NOT be sold. It'll be primarily a defensive weapon, pulling plinking duty until it's needed for duty No.1......so here's the set-up I'm currently considering:

BM flattop, 14.5in M4 barrel, standard front sight tower

A1 stock, for the storage and LOP, with a DPMS side sling adaptor

ARMS #40 BUIS

ACOG (toss-up between TA01NSN, and TA31F) on ARMS #19acog--don't really NEED one, but damnit, I gotta have it

Either an RRA 2-stage trigger, or a JP enterprises single-stage

Wilson combat rail mount (fits into FS tower, giving 2 mounting points to the sides)

Sure-fire weapon light (throw-lever clamp), to mount to above

HK-type pistol grip

KKF A3 tac brake (to me, an AR just doesn't look right with a naked muzzle, and I HATE a fake FS)

M4 handguards

While I'd like to have an RAS II, I don't see where the benefit would outweigh the cost since I won't be using it past 400yds or so, plus the light is the only thing I need a rail for (which the wilson combat mount takes care of), except maybe a front pistol grip, and I can get the smaller one for that from Advanced Armament to put onto the bottom handguard. I'm going to try to get a preban, but post'll do just fine, too.

P.S. feel free to bash me for selling the first 2 ARs..........

Link Posted: 12/28/2002 5:58:41 AM EST
What was the first two ?
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 7:19:54 AM EST
Outfitting your AR to suit your needs is a subjective pursuit. Just get the best you can afford. Only GI's have to fight with low-bid equipment. My rail mounted cigar humidor is essential to me, but not to everybody.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 7:34:45 AM EST
I'm also building a preban AR15 setup. I want to use a Bushmaster M4 uppper, 14.5", so I can also use the special forces TS something ACOG. Would having a flash supp. on the end, (to make it the legal length) compromise the ACOG? I'm going to get the A3 version, and probably also put KAC RAC on it, for a foregrip and Surefire light. (In the future, when I can "organize" the $$$)... Good luck! AND NEVER SELL GUNS!!!
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 7:51:27 AM EST
Go for it! I don't think you can go wrong with any BUSHMASTER right now.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 7:52:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2002 7:52:44 AM EST by notack]
Originally Posted By Zardoz: Well, I've had 2 (both of which I sold--idiot), P.S. feel free to bash me for selling the first 2 ARs..........
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[spank][stick][smash]
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 11:44:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By Black-Lions: What was the first two ?
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The first was a BM shorty AK with an A1 upper, the second was a shorty AK with a flattop upper.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 12:22:01 PM EST
Get the TA31 and wait for the new ARMS ACOG mount that will have a single throw lever. Put a shock isolated bezel on a 6P on the left side of your front sight tower and you are good to go.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 12:55:25 PM EST
There was a thread on AR-15.com recently by people who had recently attended the Gunsite Tactical Carbine class. One thing that was mentioned was the tendency of two-stage triggers - basically any aftermarket trigger to break under adverse conditions. While I have not had personal experience with this happening, I would stick with standard Mil-Spec trigger groups if you plan on putting your rifle through any serious shooting. Both of my carbines have the new 6 position Fiberite stock, KAC rail systems, Vortex flash hiders, and the Badger Tactical latch - but be careful how many gadgets you use. The AR was designed to be light - bringing it up to the weight of a main battle rifle or whatever totally defeats the purpose of the "lighweight carbine" concept. Don't forget to field test all your equipment as well - I'm probably "preaching to the choir" here - but its amazing how many people buy equipment and then something breaks or Murphy's Law kicks in at the worse possible time. At a range, this can be amusing to watch in a twisted sort of way. In a real life or death situation - nothing is funny about critical equipment failing. AR-15 magazines are a perfect example of this - if you have a bunch of AR mags and have never function tested them at the range with 30rnds - you may own a bunch of POS mags. Mags which could have been previously checked and had the spring/follower replaced if necessary.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 1:15:47 PM EST
Rail mounted humidor, ummmmm?
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 2:23:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By J_Smith: There was a thread on AR-15.com recently by people who had recently attended the Gunsite Tactical Carbine class. One thing that was mentioned was the tendency of two-stage triggers - basically any aftermarket trigger to break under adverse conditions. While I have not had personal experience with this happening, I would stick with standard Mil-Spec trigger groups if you plan on putting your rifle through any serious shooting.
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So I guess the US military made a huge mistake going with the Knights 2 stage trigger with not one but 2 set screws on the SPR right? Funny how I have not heard a single failure of that trigger ever mentioned. I think the "gadgets" failing is more of cheap gear going bad not the good stuff.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 2:30:36 PM EST
Get a Dissapator best of both worlds. Carbine and full sight radius
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 2:43:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By DevL:
Originally Posted By J_Smith: There was a thread on AR-15.com recently by people who had recently attended the Gunsite Tactical Carbine class. One thing that was mentioned was the tendency of two-stage triggers - basically any aftermarket trigger to break under adverse conditions. While I have not had personal experience with this happening, I would stick with standard Mil-Spec trigger groups if you plan on putting your rifle through any serious shooting.
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So I guess the US military made a huge mistake going with the Knights 2 stage trigger with not one but 2 set screws on the SPR right? Funny how I have not heard a single failure of that trigger ever mentioned. I think the "gadgets" failing is more of cheap gear going bad not the good stuff.
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I'm not familiar with the Knights 2 stage trigger - but I have personally seen a lot of NSN material go to sh#t really quick. Example - the Beta C Mag which everyone drools over - I had a new one mess up on me in Kosovo - it was an interesting looking toy but thats about it - I'd take (3) reliable 30rnd mags any day over the finicky C-Mag that requires its graphite lube or whatever. I still don't see what benefit any aftermarket trigger has over the standard AR15/M16 trigger - to me a standard trigger is fine. Its true that a lot of people get cheap and buy poorly made gear. Just the same, the more sh#t you ad to a perfectly good AR15 or M16/M4, the more that can go wrong - or right if your lucky. For the most part, I prefer to leave my reliable AR's alone and not modify them every other week.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 3:02:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By J_Smith:
Originally Posted By DevL:
Originally Posted By J_Smith: There was a thread on AR-15.com recently by people who had recently attended the Gunsite Tactical Carbine class. One thing that was mentioned was the tendency of two-stage triggers - basically any aftermarket trigger to break under adverse conditions. While I have not had personal experience with this happening, I would stick with standard Mil-Spec trigger groups if you plan on putting your rifle through any serious shooting.
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So I guess the US military made a huge mistake going with the Knights 2 stage trigger with not one but 2 set screws on the SPR right? Funny how I have not heard a single failure of that trigger ever mentioned. I think the "gadgets" failing is more of cheap gear going bad not the good stuff.
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I'm not familiar with the Knights 2 stage trigger - but I have personally seen a lot of NSN material go to sh#t really quick. Example - the Beta C Mag which everyone drools over - I had a new one mess up on me in Kosovo - it was an interesting looking toy but thats about it - I'd take (3) reliable 30rnd mags any day over the finicky C-Mag that requires its graphite lube or whatever. I still don't see what benefit any aftermarket trigger has over the standard AR15/M16 trigger - to me a standard trigger is fine. Its true that a lot of people get cheap and buy poorly made gear. Just the same, the more sh#t you ad to a perfectly good AR15 or M16/M4, the more that can go wrong - or right if your lucky. For the most part, I prefer to leave my reliable AR's alone and not modify them every other week.
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A Beta-C mag is "NSN material"? Are you saying that you were [b]issued[/b] one that you used in Kosovo? Chris
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 3:10:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By Zardoz: Well, I've had 2 (both of which I sold--idiot), and will soon be getting a third, which will NOT be sold. It'll be primarily a defensive weapon, pulling plinking duty until it's needed for duty No.1......so here's the set-up I'm currently considering: BM flattop, 14.5in M4 barrel, standard front sight tower A1 stock, for the storage and LOP, with a DPMS side sling adaptor ARMS #40 BUIS ACOG (toss-up between TA01NSN, and TA31F) on ARMS #19acog--don't really [i]NEED[/i] one, but damnit, I gotta have it Either an RRA 2-stage trigger, or a JP enterprises single-stage Wilson combat rail mount (fits into FS tower, giving 2 mounting points to the sides) Sure-fire weapon light (throw-lever clamp), to mount to above HK-type pistol grip KKF A3 tac brake (to me, an AR just doesn't look right with a naked muzzle, and I HATE a fake FS) M4 handguards While I'd like to have an RAS II, I don't see where the benefit would outweigh the cost since I won't be using it past 400yds or so, plus the light is the only thing I need a rail for (which the wilson combat mount takes care of), except maybe a front pistol grip, and I can get the smaller one for that from Advanced Armament to put onto the bottom handguard. I'm going to try to get a preban, but post'll do just fine, too. P.S. feel free to bash me for selling the first 2 ARs..........
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NAH... Get an EOTech!
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 3:21:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By Zardoz: Well, I've had 2 (both of which I sold--idiot), and will soon be getting a third, which will NOT be sold. It'll be primarily a defensive weapon, pulling plinking duty until it's needed for duty No.1......so here's the set-up I'm currently considering: BM flattop, 14.5in M4 barrel, standard front sight tower A1 stock, for the storage and LOP, with a DPMS side sling adaptor ARMS #40 BUIS ACOG (toss-up between TA01NSN, and TA31F) on ARMS #19acog--don't really [i]NEED[/i] one, but damnit, I gotta have it Either an RRA 2-stage trigger, or a JP enterprises single-stage Wilson combat rail mount (fits into FS tower, giving 2 mounting points to the sides) Sure-fire weapon light (throw-lever clamp), to mount to above HK-type pistol grip KKF A3 tac brake (to me, an AR just doesn't look right with a naked muzzle, and I HATE a fake FS) M4 handguards While I'd like to have an RAS II, I don't see where the benefit would outweigh the cost since I won't be using it past 400yds or so, plus the light is the only thing I need a rail for (which the wilson combat mount takes care of), except maybe a front pistol grip, and I can get the smaller one for that from Advanced Armament to put onto the bottom handguard. I'm going to try to get a preban, but post'll do just fine, too. P.S. feel free to bash me for selling the first 2 ARs..........
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Okay, here ya go: [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p3a2af43c1f7267075a48370c5e095b2c/fcf1e56b.jpg[/img] There's the 14.5" M4 upper with the KKF A3 Tac Brake, ARMS #40. On yours though, you'll go with your A1 stock, ACOG, and a dedicated Surefire weaponlight. BTW, the ARFX stock's LOP (without buttpad) is the same as an A1, and it comes with side sling swivel attachment on both sides. Forget the Wilson combat rail mount and railing on standard handguards and go with either the RAS II or SIR. You won't regret it. Forget the aftermarket trigger too. Just my opinion .... [;)] Chris
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 4:23:18 PM EST
MRCR0603, The Beta C-Mag you don't get issued per say - its an expendable item which can be ordered just as easily as 30rnd mags or a box of pens - now whether your unit can get the order approved.....thats another story. Its not like a weapon or vehicle that has to be authorized by MTOE for a given unit. It does have a valid National Stock Number though - as do all the Beta Company accessories for it.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 4:46:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2002 4:47:51 PM EST by Pb-Rx]
Okay, here ya go: [url]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p3a2af43c1f7267075a48370c5e095b2c/fcf1e56b.jpg[/url] There's the 14.5" M4 upper with the KKF A3 Tac Brake, ARMS #40. On yours though, you'll go with your A1 stock, ACOG, and a dedicated Surefire weaponlight. BTW, the ARFX stock's LOP (without buttpad) is the same as an A1, and it comes with side sling swivel attachment on both sides. Forget the Wilson combat rail mount and railing on standard handguards and go with either the RAS II or SIR. You won't regret it. Forget the aftermarket trigger too. Just my opinion .... [;)] Chris
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Chris, I am thinking about the same set-up, but it would seem to me to be front-end heavy and unwieldy. Please comment. Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 5:23:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By J_Smith: MRCR0603, The Beta C-Mag you don't get issued per say - its an expendable item which can be ordered just as easily as 30rnd mags or a box of pens - now whether your unit can get the order approved.....thats another story. Its not like a weapon or vehicle that has to be authorized by MTOE for a given unit. It does have a valid National Stock Number though - as do all the Beta Company accessories for it.
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Thanks for the info! Chris
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 5:28:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By Pb-Rx:
Okay, here ya go: [url]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p3a2af43c1f7267075a48370c5e095b2c/fcf1e56b.jpg[/url] There's the 14.5" M4 upper with the KKF A3 Tac Brake, ARMS #40. On yours though, you'll go with your A1 stock, ACOG, and a dedicated Surefire weaponlight. BTW, the ARFX stock's LOP (without buttpad) is the same as an A1, and it comes with side sling swivel attachment on both sides. Forget the Wilson combat rail mount and railing on standard handguards and go with either the RAS II or SIR. You won't regret it. Forget the aftermarket trigger too. Just my opinion .... [;)] Chris
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Chris, I am thinking about the same set-up, but it would seem to me to be front-end heavy and unwieldy. Please comment. Thanks.
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With the look of the SIR it's easy to come up with that assumption. The main thing to understand about it is the lower 2/3's of it is polymer. If you hold the SIR in your hand it's surprisingly light. Also keep in mind that it's an M4 profile barrel. My other AR is a 14.5" HBAR, and it's [i]noticeably[/i] heavier. As configured in the pic, the center-of-balance is at the front edge of the magazine well. Chris
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 6:41:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2002 6:43:10 PM EST by Zardoz]
Thanks for the comments, fellas! Now, to answer some of your suggestions/ comments:
Get an EOTech!
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I had a 511 on my last carbine, and it was indeed a damned good sight (talk about [i]quick[/i]?), but since my budget will allow, and I've always liked the idea of a small and light scope---I'm gonna have me an ACOG!
Get the TA31 and wait for the new ARMS ACOG mount that will have a single throw lever. Put a shock isolated bezel on a 6P on the left side of your front sight tower and you are good to go.
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I might just get a TA31F; it seems to fit the bill just a little bit better than the TA01NSN. I'll be getting a light with a built-in throw-lever mount and tape switch (sableco has 'em cheaper by FAR than anybody else). Besides, I keep my 6P in the truck.....
Forget the Wilson combat rail mount and railing on standard handguards and go with either the RAS II or SIR. You won't regret it.
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I'm sure I wouldn't regret it (especially an RAS II), but like I said, all I need rails for are the light, and [i]maybe[/i] a vertical pistol grip, so the benefits don't really justify the cost (I know.....an ACOG, and now I'm bitching about cost, LOL).
the tendency of two-stage triggers - basically any aftermarket trigger to break under adverse conditions.
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I can see your point, but I would think that would be an issue mainly with adjustable triggers, such as a jewell; the RRA is non-adjustable, and while the JP single-stage is, I had one, and I neve had the first problem out of it. For use with any kind of scope, the stock trigger just plain sucks, IMO.
AR-15 magazines are a perfect example of this - if you have a bunch of AR mags and have never function tested them at the range with 30rnds - you may own a bunch of POS mags. Mags which could have been previously checked and had the spring/follower replaced if necessary.
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The first thing I do with mags is get new springs and followers (green only, please); it may be a wasteful expenditure, but I look at it this way: at least I have a whole set of spares. And I do plan to put all of 'em to use.
My rail mounted cigar humidor is essential to me
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I don't smoke cigars, but do ya know somebody who can hook me up w/ a cig lighter that'll run off the light batteries? I like the skeleton stock (ACE makes gooooood stuff), but I'd lose storage capacity--cleaning kit, broken shell extractor ('cause ya never know), spare bolt, etc. Basically, I want a carbine that'll be able to handle most, if not all, forseeable eventualities. I figure this oughta do alright, and still not weigh a damn ton.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 2:40:42 AM EST
what was posted earlier on testing your equipment is so true, words to live (or die) by. as a newbie, i was talked into buying $7.00 30-rnd mags, and those things are worthless, my rifle was jamming constantly...once i replaced them with nice mil-spec 30 rnd mags i never had another problem.....i took those garbage mags, set em up on some rocks and shot them into tiny pieces. and i too believe in keeping things simple, i just got a MT6400C M4 carbine and equipped it with the Aimpoint Comp ML2, no other gadgets...makes a great little weapon system. but your setup sounds fantastic.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:10:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2002 7:35:05 AM EST by USMC03]
Here is my take on things from what I have experienced both professionally and in my off time....
Originally Posted By Zardoz: BM flattop, 14.5in M4 barrel, standard front sight tower I don't know if you plan on getting a complete rifle or not, but I've been to numerous carbine courses, shoot IDPA and numerous other matches (our local IDPA has a carbine match after the pistol matches) and I'm a SWAT cop, we have to supply our own carbines and I've probably seen everything imagnineable...Every time that I see a non factory rifle that has been built from different lowers and uppers and other parts they always seem to go tits up at the most inconvient time....I would recommend getting a Bushmaster factory rifle...Either the M4A3 with the Mini Y-Comp (which is a non issue because you said that you were going to get a Kurts A3 muzzle brake) or get the Bushmaster Lawman, which is the same thing as the M4 but has a 16" barrel and no muzzle brake... A1 stock, for the storage and LOP, with a DPMS side sling adaptor I would recommend trying to order your Bushmaster from the factory with the A1 stock...I would skip the DPMS side sling adaptor and get a 3 point sling...Something like the Giles sling from Wilderness or something in the line of the CQB Solutions Spec Ops Sling...You can get them for the A1/A2 style stocks... ARMS #40 BUIS Good choise ACOG (toss-up between TA01NSN, and TA31F) on ARMS #19acog--don't really [i]NEED[/i] one, but damnit, I gotta have it I have a TA01NSN and a TA11 and have used the TA31 quite a bit...That being said I would opt for the TA31, I think it's quite a bit more versatile than the TA01NSN...The TA31 is great from talking distances out to well beyond 400 yards...The TA01NSN is a great optic, but not as fast as the TA31...The TA31 has the best of both worlds, it's a fast as a dot sight like the EoTech or Aimpoint ML2, but also has magnification like the TA01....The ARMS 19 ACOG is an outstanding base and would recommend them for anyone that is mounting an ACOG on a flat top...Makes it easy the get the ACOG off the rifle so the Back Up Iron Sight can be employeed Either an RRA 2-stage trigger, or a JP enterprises single-stage Every time I have seen an aftermarket trigger installed in a AR it always seems to fail under extreem conditions...I have seen a JP trigger that didn't have enought strength to ignite the primers in certain rounds, but a factory trigger had no problem shooting the same ammo...And I have seen numerous 2 stage triggers go tits up and render the rifle inoperable...My advise is to stick with the factory trigger Wilson combat rail mount (fits into FS tower, giving 2 mounting points to the sides) If you are right handed I would recommend the GG&G SLING THING, on the left side you can mount your sling and on the right side it has a rail so you can mount your Surefire or what ever else you plan on mounting on the front sight tower... Sure-fire weapon light (throw-lever clamp), to mount to above Good choise HK-type pistol grip I would recommend the HK style grip made by Falcon, called the Falcon Ergo Grip...These can be found in Brownells...I tried the HK style grip made by Bushmaster and found them to be too short, the Ergo Grip is pretty much the same grip, but has a better texture and is a bit longer....You may also want to check out the new "Battle Grip", these can be found at [url]www.lightfighter.com[/url]..... KKF A3 tac brake (to me, an AR just doesn't look right with a naked muzzle, and I HATE a fake FS) The KKF is great on a 14.5" barrel, but I would go with the shorter A2 brake if you are going to get the 16" barrel...The A3 on a 16" barrel is just too long in my opinion...I have both the A2 and A3, both are great brakes!! M4 handguards For standard handguards these are MUCH better than the skinny CAR-15 style handguards
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These are just my opinions and experiences...Hope it helps
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 7:48:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 7:51:00 PM EST by Zardoz]
[b]USMC03[/b], I didn't know the GG&G sling thing also had a rail on the side....it should serve my needs, and be just a tad lighter than the Wilson combat mount; thanks! Should I put a JP trigger in it, that's the only thing that will be replaced (the trigger and disconnector); the one I had before, I kept the factory spring and hammer, and it was still very reliable (I fixed the adjustment screws permanently by lightly coating with JB weld before setting the adjustments), yet had a MUCH better feel to it. I've not had the opportunity to check out a TA31, but everybody here seems to prefer it; I may go ahead and spring for one (I DO like it's recticle-not as "busy" as the NSN's). Once again, everybody's input is well-appreciated!
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 10:53:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By Zardoz: [b]USMC03[/b], I didn't know the GG&G sling thing also had a rail on the side....it should serve my needs, and be just a tad lighter than the Wilson combat mount; thanks!
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It's not exactly the sling thing. They call it the SLiC (Sling and Light Combo) mount.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:58:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By edpmedic: Get a Dissapator best of both worlds. Carbine and full sight radius
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I agree! I love the idea of full handguards! Unfortunately, saving for a house puts a crink in the AR flow... [sad]
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:00:14 AM EST
Email your wishlist to JT distributing (Or just post it in the industry forum...) Build it yourself! They'll quote you this upper: Built and headspaced, with all your bells and whistles already on it!
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