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Posted: 4/28/2011 2:03:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2011 2:26:53 PM EDT by projectruger]
Went out shooting today. My cousins AR was running great for about 50 rds. Then he used up all his American eagle 100 rd value pack ammo. He switched over to Tula and started having ftf and fte issuses. ( told him that Tula ammo was junk but he bought it anyways) thought it may be a mag issue and tried my 20rd pmag that works great in my spikes lower bcm upper build. Didn't solve any problems. For the most part it would shoot a round and the bolt would get stuck in place and would have to use some muscle pulling on the charging handle to get it to come out.

By the way it is a complete DPMS rifle.
No need to turn into a thread about dpms is junk.
Just trying to help him diagnose a problem.
Thanks in advance

Edit:  He also tried some wolf and it did the same thing.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 8:22:31 PM EDT
Normal when a .223 is fed crap 5.56 ammo.

Sometimes it:s normal when a 5.56 is fed the same crap
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 9:38:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2011 9:40:43 PM EDT by Eric_D]
It is in no way "normal".  You do know not to shoot 5.56 NATO rounds in a weapon chambered for .223 don't you?

Originally Posted By 458winmag:
Normal when a .223 is fed crap 5.56 ammo.

Sometimes it:s normal when a 5.56 is fed the same crap


OP, its more common to experience issues when switching from brass to steel cased ammo without a thorough cleaning.  You should have someone check the chamber.  If it is not true 5.56 NATO, it should be reamed as such - This will most likely fix your FTE issues.  As for FT(Feed?), you're right, tula is shit and I wouldn't give a second thought to any malfunction encountered when using it.  Assuming this is a 16" barrel, you should probably be running at least an H buffer.  If this weapon has seen in upwards of 3-4k rounds, measure the action spring.  A carbine action spring should be between 10 1/16" and 11 3/4".  Check for gas leakage around the FSB and make sure the gas key is tight.

Check the chamber, have it reamed if necessary, get some quality ammo.

Link Posted: 4/30/2011 10:01:35 AM EDT
Out of curiosity, has your cousin ran Tula or Wolf in his rifle before? If so, did he have issues with it? Also, what is his rifle chambered for? Do you happen to know the model or any of the specs?

From a lot of reading, I have found that most issues with Tula and Wolf FTF and FTE issues come from using it in .223 chambered rifles. The rifles chambered for 5.56 seem to have no issue with it. Also, the gas tube size plays a role here along with buffer size and spring. It could very well be that the DPMS gas and buffer systems don't work well with the Russian ammo and are failing to cycle completely.

I have heard/read of the issues when switching from brass to steel after so many rounds, but I have never had a problem. I went out yesterday and sent 150 rds down range of USA Ammo brass then another 50 Tula and 50 Wolf MC without issue through an M&P15.

BTW, Tula isn't necessarily 'junk'. Yes, it can be underpowered, but some rifles, like mine, can eat it all day without failure. It goes where I aim and puts holes in paper, cans, and bottles just fine.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 5:18:23 PM EDT
His rifle is chambered in 5.56. And it is a 16" barrel. Carbine gas system and pretty sure a carbine buffer also. He said his rifle has no more than 6-700 rds through it. He has never had a problem with wolf. But it was his first time runnng Tula. And I talked to him and I'm pretty sure it was just a fte not a ftf. Sorry about that one. What would cause the case to get stuck and not allow the charging handle to be pulled back easily? He had to use alot of force to pull that back.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 6:00:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cage77:
From a lot of reading, I have found that most issues with Tula and Wolf FTF and FTE issues come from using it in .223 chambered rifles. The rifles chambered for 5.56 seem to have no issue with it. Not true
Also, the gas tube size plays a role here Wut?



OP Tula and Wolf ammo are lacquer coated to prevent corrosion ... when you shoot that ammo a fine layer of lacquer is distributed around the rifle and it needs to be cleaned out ... especially from the chamber. You need a good solvent and chamber brush along with some pretty good elbow grease to get that stuff out of there. If it's left in there and you shoot the rifle again it heats up that layer of lacquer and it becomes sticky and can cause extraction issues among other things.

Link Posted: 4/30/2011 7:54:19 PM EDT
This is a complete myth and has been disproved many times.  Furthermore, its not laquer, it polymer and does not get sticky.  The issue when switching from brass to steel before cleaning is that steel cases aren't as elastic as brass ones.  When the brass contracts, carbon get into the chamber.  Steel cases expand and stay expanded - getting pressed against the already deposited carbon and causing fte.

I don't care what chamber the weapon is marked for.  As you acknowledged yourself, DPMS isn't synonymous with quailty and I will bet money that the chamber is not true 5.56 NATO.  Weapons chambered for true 5.56 NATO hardly ever have fte issues when switching from brass to steel cased ammo.

Originally Posted By Gatorhunt:
OP Tula and Wolf ammo are lacquer coated to prevent corrosion ... when you shoot that ammo a fine layer of lacquer is distributed around the rifle and it needs to be cleaned out ... especially from the chamber. You need a good solvent and chamber brush along with some pretty good elbow grease to get that stuff out of there. If it's left in there and you shoot the rifle again it heats up that layer of lacquer and it becomes sticky and can cause extraction issues among other things.



Link Posted: 4/30/2011 9:48:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Eric_D:
This is a complete myth and has been disproved many times.  Furthermore, its not laquer, it polymer and does not get sticky.  The issue when switching from brass to steel before cleaning is that steel cases aren't as elastic as brass ones.  When the brass contracts, carbon get into the chamber.  Steel cases expand and stay expanded - getting pressed against the already deposited carbon and causing fte.

I don't care what chamber the weapon is marked for.  As you acknowledged yourself, DPMS isn't synonymous with quailty and I will bet money that the chamber is not true 5.56 NATO.  Weapons chambered for true 5.56 NATO hardly ever have fte issues when switching from brass to steel cased ammo.

Originally Posted By Gatorhunt:
OP Tula and Wolf ammo are lacquer coated to prevent corrosion ... when you shoot that ammo a fine layer of lacquer is distributed around the rifle and it needs to be cleaned out ... especially from the chamber. You need a good solvent and chamber brush along with some pretty good elbow grease to get that stuff out of there. If it's left in there and you shoot the rifle again it heats up that layer of lacquer and it becomes sticky and can cause extraction issues among other things.





I don't shoot it anymore so it may be a polymer coated now but it wasn't when I was shooting russian ammo years ago ... it was something else ... lacquer IIRC

But regardless ... it's no myth that shooting the coated ammos causes build up from the coating especially inside the chamber and if it's not scrubbed out on a regular basis it will cause issues.

I've talked to enough people that currently shoot it with both types of chambers to know it can and does cause problems for them .... believe it ... or not.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 11:15:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gatorhunt:
Originally Posted By cage77:
From a lot of reading, I have found that most issues with Tula and Wolf FTF and FTE issues come from using it in .223 chambered rifles. The rifles chambered for 5.56 seem to have no issue with it. Not true
Also, the gas tube size plays a role here Wut?



OP Tula and Wolf ammo are lacquer coated to prevent corrosion ... when you shoot that ammo a fine layer of lacquer is distributed around the rifle and it needs to be cleaned out ... especially from the chamber. You need a good solvent and chamber brush along with some pretty good elbow grease to get that stuff out of there. If it's left in there and you shoot the rifle again it heats up that layer of lacquer and it becomes sticky and can cause extraction issues among other things.



OK....I agree that not all 5.56 chamber rifles have an issue with steel cased ammo. I should have said that most 5.56 chambered rifles have little/no issues with steel cased ammo. Most complaints come from owners of .223 owners.....or at least from what I have seen first hand and read online.

When I mentioned the gas tube, it was in regards to the Tula and Wolf ammo being under charged. My MP15 is "over-gassed" and can cycle just fine with any of this this ammo.I have gone out and shot over 500 rds of Tula  in one trip to the range without a single issue. Not trying to step on your barbecue boss, this is just coming from what I have read on ArfCom and have seen first hand. I can alternate brass and steel all day without issue....and so can many other rifles.

To the OP, a FTE may have been caused by the underpowered Tula not cycling all the way.  If he is going to continue shooting Tula, he might want to change his buffer size....or gas tube size (buffer is easier). Then agian, he might just want to sick with what works in his rifle.

Tell you what, I can do an A/B comparison this week between my MP15 and my Dads DPMS at the range using Tula and brass to see if I can recreate this issue. I have plenty of Tula on hand and can get a bulk pack of American Eagle at my LGS. If I can recreate the problem first hand I will give let you know what I figure out.......I'll do 100 A.E. through each and then move onto Tula.....and some Wolf M.C. for good measure. It's going to be this coming Thursday or Friday....

I'd really like to help you solve this issue.....and I just happen to be able to replicate the problem. Important question before I go to the range, how clean was the DPMS? I mean, Inspection clean, G.I. clean, clean enough, "never cleaned", or caked with carbon goo? This may or may not play a role, but I want to try and replicate the gun as best I can.

BTW, this is interesting to me as well as this will be the very first time my Dad's DPMS has seen Tula.....

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