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Posted: 12/1/2005 11:06:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2005 11:17:05 PM EDT by Tweak]
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 11:23:10 PM EDT
Is that bolt CMT?
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 11:24:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 12:29:39 AM EDT
tack welding works wonders!
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 12:53:29 AM EDT
Are you hitting straight down or at a 45* angle?
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 1:07:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
tack welding works wonders!



Olympic finally got theirs to stay on!?!?!?
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 2:37:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
There is no excuse for shoddy workmanship, people's lives are at risk with every sloppy build.



AMEN!!!!
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 2:41:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 2:44:14 AM EDT by Tweak]
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 4:25:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 4:26:20 AM EDT by Tweak]
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 5:46:18 AM EDT
Now you got me looking at my Bushmaster carrier..

Good info Tweak!
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 5:52:41 AM EDT
Good advice Tweak! I never understood staking from the top. I staked my latest un-staked carrier in the same fashion as you show above. My staking tool was an old chisel that I ground the tip flat.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 5:53:02 AM EDT
O.K. Newb here. What is staking and what purpose does it serve?
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 5:59:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 6:02:07 AM EDT by m24shooter]
Staking is forcing some of the metal onto/into the surface of the key/bolt/nut whatever to prevent it from backing out. In the case of the gas key, if that puppy comes undone while in operation you will have a rapid deconstruction of your rifle. It will probably be a significant event in your life.
The receiver end plate/sling plate on the back of CAR/M4s is staked into the castle nut to prevent it from walking out.
ETA because I assumed you had a basis of knowledge, which you indicated you didn't: to stake something you place a staking tool (Tweaky uses a ground down punch as shown) onto the upper side of the carrier key (in the above example) adjacent to the key screws and whack it smartly with a hammer. this forces some of the metal from the carrier into direct contact with the striations on the outside of the key screw, preventing it from backing out. Sorry to leave that out.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 6:00:03 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 6:03:51 AM EDT
Tweaky:
Are you going to sticky this in the troubleshooting forum? I think it would help a lot of people who don't know what staking is or how to do it correctly.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 6:06:37 AM EDT
Actually, rather then hammering on the thing at all, I prefer to use a specially modified set of bolt cutters. The jaws are cut back so when the handles are closed, it squeezes the key just the right amount, equally on both sides. If you look at a Colt bolt carrier, it appears they are using a similar type of tool.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 6:09:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 6:37:51 AM EDT
Try different mags and slings!
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:06:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TonyRumore:
Actually, rather then hammering on the thing at all, I prefer to use a specially modified set of bolt cutters. The jaws are cut back so when the handles are closed, it squeezes the key just the right amount, equally on both sides. If you look at a Colt bolt carrier, it appears they are using a similar type of tool.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp



A guy at a class had a fixture he made that would fit over the key and had bolts on either side that would push tabs into the key in the same manner and your bolt cutters. I though that was pretty slick. Your idea is sweet also.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:12:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By TonyRumore:
Actually, rather then hammering on the thing at all, I prefer to use a specially modified set of bolt cutters. The jaws are cut back so when the handles are closed, it squeezes the key just the right amount, equally on both sides. If you look at a Colt bolt carrier, it appears they are using a similar type of tool.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp



A guy at a class had a fixture he made that would fit over the key and had bolts on either side that would push tabs into the key in the same manner and your bolt cutters. I though that was pretty slick. Your idea is sweet also.



+1. Better, more consistent control (although it is usually more fun to smack things )
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:17:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 7:18:40 AM EDT by Stickman]
Tweak, your pictures make my eyes bleed, but its a good reminder that people should be checking their staking when they pick up a new/ used AR15.

Here is a picture of a properly staked carrier that I just picked up. Three guesses what company.....





PS- I confess I like the picture of staking in the vise, that is going to save some aggravation for first time stakers!!
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:29:01 AM EDT
Tweak,
Well Done! Timely too.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:32:44 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:37:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 7:43:49 AM EDT by Zarathustra1]

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Tweak, your pictures make my eyes bleed



I actually made an audible laugh after reading that.

Thanks stick, I needed that.

ETA: Just went and looked at all my carriers. All are crimped like the Colt pictured above. Or it might be an LMT; my Colt and LMT carriers have the identical crimp in the carriers.

My Armalite AR10 carrier has the same crimps, but they are no where near as pronounced as the Colt LMT ones.

Actually, it looks like all mine are crimped and none are staked. By crimped I mean the metal is squeezed into the bolt head instead of struck.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:37:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:48:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Here is a picture of a properly staked carrier that I just picked up. Three guesses what company.....



Oly?

ASA?

Hesse?­



I have to say, almost every carrier I've ever seen has had the "top staking". (And I've had more than one come loose.)
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 8:09:02 AM EDT
I wonder what type of slotted screwdriver they used to stake that gas key???

I have never staked a gas key, but I bet I could have done a better job then that!!! Even red locktite would have been better!!!
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 8:25:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 8:41:02 AM EDT by JackalAR]
Does CMT properly stake their enhanced carriers? How in the hell do you stake the receiver extension of a collapsable stock to the casle nut? I installed the stock myself so I want to make sure I've done it properly. ...or are you referring to the keyway cut into the threads? Thanks!!!
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 8:43:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JackalAR:
Does CMT properly stake their enhanced carriers? How in the hell do you stake the receiver extension of a collapsable stock to the casle nut? I installed the stock myself so I want to make sure I've done it properly. ...or are you referring to the keyway cut into the threads? Thanks!!!


Your staking the end plate, not the extension. The castle nut should have some cuts in the forward edge. Just put the staking tool on the end plate at one of the cuts and stake. The TM should have the full procedure for you. Or you can go with loctite, or you can go with it as is. Depends on how comfortable you are.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 9:09:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 9:11:38 AM EDT by JackalAR]
Thanks man...every pic I've seen of people's AR have the cuts in the castle nut to the rear. Are you saying they should be forward? How do you remove the castle nut after it has been staked? I'll consider blue loctite if you feel it's adiquate. I torq'd the hell out of it thinking it would be good. The TM???
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 9:10:30 AM EDT
Blue Locktite works very well on the castle nut; almost too well sometimes, so go ahead and use a single-point sling plate the first time!
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 9:22:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JackalAR:
Thanks man...every pic I've seen of people's AR have the cuts in the castle nut to the rear. Are you saying they should be forward?


There are cuts on both sides. The ones of the staking are smaller and less frequent. That is the side that should be against the endplate.


How do you remove the castle nut after it has been staked?

Dremel works . Then again if you plan on chaning the receiver plate often just go with LocTite.


The TM???

Lets see if I can do this from memory TM 9-1005-319-23&P "Direct Support and Unit Maintenance Manual"

otherwise known as the -23

You can download it free from this site (click on the Information button and look in the Downloads area).
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 9:26:16 AM EDT
Thanks guys, got -10 & -23 already. I'll read up on em. My castle nut only has the cuts in the rear edge and a half drilled hole in the side...the front edge is smooth if I remember right. Anyone have a source on a parkerized castle nut instead of a blued one?
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 9:38:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
at least having to pull the keys gives me a chance to lap the key to the carrier, both were pretty rough.



This is interesting. Tell us more on this lapping. More efficient gas use, less blow through the receiver? What kind of lapping compound do you use and the procedure please?
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 10:21:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 10:22:56 AM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By JackalAR:
Anyone have a source on a parkerized castle nut instead of a blued one?



Locking ring from DPMS

OR

You can contact SAW and pay way too much for a Colt original part.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 10:52:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 11:12:07 AM EDT by Combat_Jack]

Originally Posted By Tweak:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Olympic Bushmaster finally got theirs to stay on!?






The only time I've ever seen this problem (though I've heard of Colt's going down in the shit) has been a Bushy.

ETA: I only wrote OAI cause Da_bunnys' benefit!
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 11:20:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JackalAR:
Thanks guys, got -10 & -23 already. I'll read up on em. My castle nut only has the cuts in the rear edge and a half drilled hole in the side...the front edge is smooth if I remember right. Anyone have a source on a parkerized castle nut instead of a blued one?


Who makes the stock you've got on there? Just curious as to the blued/non-slotted version.
When you get a new nut it should have large squared off slots for the spanner to fit into when you tighten it down. There should be some smaller, slanted or ramped slots in the other side. The smaller cuts go forward, and the larger cuts go to the rear.
As has been said, you can loctite if you want. If you are going to change the thing out (or think you might), this could be the way to go. Reasons for this would a single point sling, or changing the nut out like you want to do now.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 11:26:41 AM EDT
Oly


Fulton


Oly


Bushmaster
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 11:39:01 AM EDT
The Bushy makes the others look like they were done on a monday.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 11:42:48 AM EDT
The Bushmaster is brand new.
The rest have a few years of shooting grunge.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 11:53:21 AM EDT
I meant more specifically, how well the staking job was done. The first Oly and the Bushy look to have the best contact, but it could just be me.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 12:31:42 PM EDT
My stock is an unmarked RRA 6-pos.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 1:03:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TonyRumore:
Actually, rather then hammering on the thing at all, I prefer to use a specially modified set of bolt cutters. The jaws are cut back so when the handles are closed, it squeezes the key just the right amount, equally on both sides. If you look at a Colt bolt carrier, it appears they are using a similar type of tool.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp



Great!!! Now please tell us how to build this magic thing?!?!?

Also, will you please show off some pictures of the carrier keys that were staked with this magical device!
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 1:03:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TonyRumore:
Actually, rather then hammering on the thing at all, I prefer to use a specially modified set of bolt cutters. The jaws are cut back so when the handles are closed, it squeezes the key just the right amount, equally on both sides. If you look at a Colt bolt carrier, it appears they are using a similar type of tool.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp


Any chance of a pic? I'm pretty sure I know what you're describing, but I'd like to see it. Do you cut the jaws back a to definite measurement or just SWAG it?
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 1:10:21 PM EDT
Top to bottom, BCG pulled from a new Sabre upper, CMT M16 BCG, and RRA enhanced carrier.



If that one in the middle comes loose, I'm going to be pissed.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 1:34:54 PM EDT
I just openend my B-Day present (CMT enhanced bolt carrier) and it has the same staking as your CMT M16 bolt. Is this a proven method of staking or?
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 1:42:43 PM EDT
Well it looks to be exactly the way Tweak is saying NOT to stake the carrier key screws.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 3:05:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 3:06:46 PM EDT by QUIB]
Top is my Oly carrier with factory stake job. Below is my carrier from Del-Ton which I believe is from CMT. It was not staked from the mfgr and I double checked the torque before staking it my self. My homemade staking tool is also pictured.

Link Posted: 12/2/2005 3:17:00 PM EDT
We used to use "staking" locking quite a bit where I used to work (100 times quicker than wirelocking). All the components I worked on were military aircraft parts ..either hydraulic pneumatic or mechanical. Our Staking tool that would be used in very similar circumstance to the AR15 screws mentioned here was "round". It was more like a centre-punch and was placed alongside the head but on the outer edge and given a good clout forcing the matierial into the head.

It worked very well and I cannot remember us having problems with locking even in the most demanding opperating environment.

Taffy
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 3:18:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By boltcatch:
Top to bottom, BCG pulled from a new Sabre upper, CMT M16 BCG, and RRA enhanced carrier.

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/boltcatch/carriers.jpg

If that one in the middle comes loose, I'm going to be pissed.




IMHO the top one has the firmest locking...the middle one would not be adequate for aircraft work.
It's squashed down ...not into/across
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 4:08:03 PM EDT
Yes, the top one appears to have been done with a round tool. I'm not really worried about that one.

I suppose I'll just have to restake the middle one myself.
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