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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/5/2005 3:06:07 AM EDT
Mr45auto posted this on the GD board. I thought it deserved a mention here too. What do you folks make of this?

www.atf.gov/firearms/071105openletter.pdf
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:00:42 AM EDT
it would be nice to see battle packs of 193.

never knew there was a trade sanction on south africa.

where\when did all that south african 308 get here? it was recently.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:55:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 5:59:47 AM EDT by Charging_Handle]
I honestly never knew there was a trade situation with SA myself. I suppose it must have involved new production stuff vs the old surplus that was made in the 80's. I guess that's how we were able to import it but once the surplus dried up, that was it. Now maybe we'll have access to stuff made since these trade rules were imposed, possibly even new production. That is if I'm reading that ATF report correctly.


Come on Denel, crank up that production and start saturating the US market with cheap 300 round battlepacks of fresh M193 spec goodness (complete with the cat piss burning powder smell and all)!
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:39:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Come on Denel, crank up that production and start saturating the US market with cheap 300 round battlepacks of fresh M193 spec goodness (complete with the cat piss burning powder smell and all)!



I couldn't agree more!
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:53:44 AM EDT
woot
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:13:49 AM EDT
<------------- sitting at my desk and breathing excitedly into a paper bag to prevent hyperventilation.



Ohpleasohpleaseohplease.....
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:03:29 AM EDT
If they were willing to sell it, it would have found its way here.
You won't see it in 2005 but maybe fourth qtr 2006
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 4:44:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:45:38 PM EDT
PARTY POOPER!
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:54:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

You aren't going to see any more of the old M193-spec battlepacks; they are gone. All this means is that SA can export ammo to us. Well, duh, they've been doing so for years, and note that the restriction discussed in that letter expired in the early 90s. The letter is effectively meaningless, except possibly to clarify something to someone.

-Troy




Let them hope.......they didn't buy when you warned them, they won't listen now.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:02:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 9:06:46 PM EDT by repub18]

Originally Posted By Troy:
You aren't going to see any more of the old M193-spec battlepacks; they are gone. All this means is that SA can export ammo to us. Well, duh, they've been doing so for years, and note that the restriction discussed in that letter expired in the early 90s. The letter is effectively meaningless, except possibly to clarify something to someone.

-Troy




How do you know they are all gone?

repub18- hoping they find more.

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:49:09 PM EDT
I don't see quantities of any M193 rounds coming to the market, whether foreign or domestic. Politics are against us. When Hitlery Clintax gets elected the next president, ARs will most likely be banned, registered, then confiscated. Ammo will be in the same boat.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 9:52:34 AM EDT
Hillary Clinton couldn't get elected chief toilet scrubber in a national election. She couldn't even get elected in Arkansas, which is why she moved to New York to begin with. Hillary could at most carry 4-5 states in the nation.

I would rather attempt to sandpaper a bobcat's ass in a phonebooth than vote for that disgusting woman. There's enough people in this nation who would agree to keep her out of the Whitehouse.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:28:26 AM EDT
Oh, how I do long for the days of cheap SA battlepacks. At Knob Creek a few years ago, I hauled out 2700 rounds on the back of a John Deere Mule. $20 a pack and $5 for the ride on the mule. Those were the days. I have often wished I bought all they had.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 11:02:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 3:23:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

I tried to tell them, I really did.

-Troy



I have two excuses for not listening:

1. I was not a regular here then, so I didn't know you were telling us!
2. I did not comprehend the actual quantities of ammuntion that are needed to feed an AR. I actually scoffed at the idea of ever shooting 2700 rounds when the Sportsman's Guide customer servicer people tried to get me to buy it when I had 1200 rounds in battle packs on back order. They didn't want to break the tins open, and I was too ignorant to see they were trying to do me a favor.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 3:30:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 6:39:38 PM EDT by repub18]
I didnt own any guns (well, I had a .22) when sportsmans guide had them
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:10:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:35:05 PM EDT
I didn't own any ARs either when the SA was available.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:40:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 6:40:34 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
My once mighty stack is down under 2 cases now.


I helped a couple buddies out, and sold 2 cases......shot the rest.

Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:30:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 5:34:21 AM EDT by rhino_]

Originally Posted By Troy:
See? Some folks think 20K rounds of 5.56 is unreasonable, but to me, I always feel like I could use another case or two, just "in case."

-Troy




You could not be more right. The only thing that would make me more comfy than having a 20K round supply on hand is having ... more.

Of my two primary shooting buddies, one understands and the other does not. The former has been to many survival schools and has a "practical" mindset. The latter is primarily a competition shooter, and sees no need to acquire anything beyond what he needs for the next few matches. We're trying to re-educate him! At least he has an AR now and has the 3-Gun bug, so we're making progress.

You really can't have too much ammo, and it's very easy to not have enough!
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:31:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
My once mighty stack is down under 2 cases now.




I'm guessing you're suffering from withdrawal! There is only one cure!
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:55:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Let them hope.......they didn't buy when you warned them, they won't listen now.



I tried to tell them, I really did.

-Troy



Some listened. I only have 600 rounds of the old SA ammunition right now. Consider I shoot 13,000 rounds per years. Thanks for your advice.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:04:09 AM EDT
The South African's are still using Battle Packaged ammunition.

In fact, the South African Team were using 1986 'vintage' Battle Pack as their team ammunition at Bisley this year!

There were also several ISO container loads of 80's vintage at their own National competition

Now whether you can get it imported is another matter. However, there are still thousands and thousands of rounds in storage potentially awaiting a new home...........
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 3:04:27 PM EDT
I have one battle pack left plus a untouched tub. I also have a tub of 308 but I dont have a 308 at the moment. Unfortunatly the SA will be next on my list to use as I am about out of other stuff including a case of loose mixed IMI I got a while back. I still have a couple cases of fedeal 193 and a case of Q3131 for a rainy day. Those 4k are untouchable and here in the next month or so when I actually have to break the wire seal on my last tub of SA I will start getting serious about getting back up to the 8-10K range.
I may do more in the next couple years depending on how the political wind seems to be blowing.
IF a bunch of ammo comperable to SA comes to market Im going to have to find some place to store it cause Ill buy it untill I cant afford it or untill I have in excess of 25K
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:10:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tnek:
IF a bunch of ammo comperable to SA comes to market Im going to have to find some place to store it cause Ill buy it untill I cant afford it or untill I have in excess of 25K



We reach, brother.

We ought to rent a secure storage space if by some good fortune we have that opportunity. Maybe one of those places that stores in shipping containers with limited access so no one can help themselves with a pair of bolt cutters.

I promise not to touch your stuff if you promise not to touch mine.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:06:55 AM EDT
I have thought about that but I worry about the environmental conditions. Way hot or way cold. BTW you can touch anything of mine you want, but not the wife
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:58:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tnek:
I have thought about that but I worry about the environmental conditions. Way hot or way cold.



I doubt if Indiana heat will be much of a problem. Think about all of the stuff that sits in cars for a year or more ...

As far as cold goes, I don't see how that could be a problem at all. But I could be wrong!




Originally Posted By tnek:
BTW you can touch anything of mine you want, but not the wife



Well, that's just downright selfish!
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:58:20 AM EDT
Florida Gun Works has some South African. HERE

Is this what everyone is looking for?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:07:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 8:09:04 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By mattm1435:
Florida Gun Works has some South African. HERE


Is this what everyone is looking for?




That is a TOTAL RIP-OFF. $0.24 per round, PLUS shipping? $0.27 per round with shipping

Geeze. Back in the day it was $0.11 to $0.12 per round shipped.


Go buy new ammo for less.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:07:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mattm1435:
Florida Gun Works has some South African. HERE

Is this what everyone is looking for?



Yup.

$0.24/round is ABSURD though. After all - this is SURPLUS, decades old ammo...
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:20:44 AM EDT
$70 more than I just paid for a case of SA 308? Thanks but no thanks.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:08:39 AM EDT
I wish there'd be some sort of decent M193 substitute that would become available soon. I've nearly shot up all my plinking/training ammo.

I still have plenty of the good stuff (XM193 and Q3131A), but being it has become so scarce, I don't want to shoot it not knowing if or when there will be more available in abundance.

Since I won't touch Wolf with a 10 ft pole, I've been shooting lots of 55 gr PMC 223A. It seems like one of the cheaper commercial loads and I've had good luck with it.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:16:03 AM EDT
Yeah, I bought some PMC 223A from Natchez when they were selling it $2.99/20rds. I'm about out of that though.

I don't mind the 55gr stuff similar to M193 if I can get it at about $150-170/1000 but I'll shoot Wolf before I start paying $200+ for my plinking ammo.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 2:02:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
You aren't going to see any more of the old M193-spec battlepacks; they are gone. All this means is that SA can export ammo to us. Well, duh, they've been doing so for years, and note that the restriction discussed in that letter expired in the early 90s. The letter is effectively meaningless, except possibly to clarify something to someone.

-Troy


OK, after re-reading this Im somewhat confused. Does this mean SA CAN ship surplus or new production ammo? If so I dont understand why the boats not at the dock.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:35:12 AM EDT
Wal-Mart sells Winchester white-box .223 in 40 round packs for something like $7.50. That's what I use for plinking.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:48:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 4:51:21 AM EDT by Will]
As long as the South African are using the R4 as their primary rifle there is a chance that we will see more battlepacked .223 from them. There are plenty of other places it could come from though-Spain, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, South Korea, Guatemala.......lots of places that use 5.56 and have for a long time. There is still Korean .30-06 on the market and they haven't fielded Garands in 25 years! It's a matter of time before something breaks loose. Many of the smaller nations don't even make their own ammo and though it comes from there it might actually be made by FN or IMI on contract etc.......

Since there is soon to be no more market in parts kits and ammo is so very high I believe the importers will find something. Even high capacity magazines have lost some of their luster as they can be domestically produced now and the parts ban will kill some of the demand anyway. They can only stay in business if they have something to sell. Other than ammo what else is there?
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