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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 12/29/2006 4:51:46 PM EST
I was originally going to purchase a LE6920 as an all around AR (I'm a college student, so i can't afford a family of them right now!).

I also think I'd like a mid length, and it would be cool to put it together by myself. However, I'm not convinced it will be as relaible, rugged or durable as a Colt. This is probably retarded, so let me know the truth!

I was going to build it out of a Colt lower and upper, but I don't think it's really that necessary. So lay it on me!
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 4:54:37 PM EST
You can't handle the truth......
Just build it yourself. Save some money & enjoy the satisfaction of having built your own EBR.
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 4:55:33 PM EST
It's really easy. Just buy quality parts and get it the way you want it.
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 5:04:20 PM EST
OK, just do this and I promise that you will have a rifle as good as and probably better than a Colt for about $300 less:

1. Call Pete at Legal Transfers (contact info on the Industry section of AR-15.com).

2. Order a RRA upper and lower from him. RRA will drop ship the upper to you,
Pete will send the lower to your local FFL dealer. Be sure that the lower includes a NM 2 stage trigger, it is the schiznit and well worth the extra money.

3. Assemble. Voila.

How 'bout a money back guarantee? As long as you don't order a bunch of expensive, exotic shit on the rifle, if you get it and don't like it I'll buy it from you. I'll give you my word on it, and I'll stake my reputation on Pete. I have dealt with him many times, both as a licensed dealer and as a non-licensed individual and he has never disappointed me.

I'm going to IM you my contact info.
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 5:50:51 PM EST
What is so great about a Colt? Just build a cheap RRA or something, for half the money. It will be as reliable as a Colt plus, cheap, durable and all that.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 9:39:43 AM EST
I received a PM from someone on here claiming that Lewis Machine Tool is the only company that will be on par with Colt. I'm kind of thinking this is bullshit, but what do I know!?
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 9:44:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jason_R:
I received a PM from someone on here claiming that Lewis Machine Tool is the only company that will be on par with Colt. I'm kind of thinking this is bullshit, but what do I know!?


What part do you think is BS? The part about LMT being on par with Colt? Or the part about them being the only manufacturer that is on par with Colt? Because they are on par with Colt but they arn't the only company that is.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 9:55:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Nic4433:

Originally Posted By Jason_R:
I received a PM from someone on here claiming that Lewis Machine Tool is the only company that will be on par with Colt. I'm kind of thinking this is bullshit, but what do I know!?


What part do you think is BS? The part about LMT being on par with Colt? Or the part about them being the only manufacturer that is on par with Colt? Because they are on par with Colt but they arn't the only company that is.


The part about LMT being the only manufacturer on par with Colt.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 10:39:22 AM EST
i'm all for the mid-length and rra uppers are hi quality but the only choice from them is heavy barrel. i've assembled middies using rra stainless & chrome-lined uppers with new parts for about $650 that were extremely accurate. complete uppers from pete at legal transfers are the best deal going imo.

a complete lower from ameetec will run $200.

i'm sold on middies and my latest lightweight is assembled from various components most notably the cmmg lightweight barrel, fulton armory m16 upper receiver & magpul ctr stock. about $200 more but shorter & liter than the rra.





Link Posted: 12/30/2006 11:58:18 AM EST
Easy to do. Just get a complete LMT lower and a LMT or BCM upper. Then snap them together.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 12:23:08 PM EST
For what it's worth I have two pieces of advice:


#1- Opinions are like.... (Yeah you know the rest...)

This advice is in response to the just as good as Colt and LMT is the only thing on par with Colt.

Let's keep in mind that Colt wouldn't even have the Guberment contract today if it wasn't for some fancy legal behavior. That isn't to say Colt doesn't make a fine weapon, but it isn't platinum and I'd put my hodge podge Colt upper, DPMS lower, Bushmaster barreled KISS AR up against any other manufacturer for reliability, accuracy, and overall function.

#2- Why would we convince you of this? We can't really do that anyway. You either want to build one or you don't.

A. Are you willing to believe that an AR you built is as good as any other or a Colt?

If the answer is no, proceed to purchase a Colt.

B. Is this something you really would like to do?

If no, proceed to purchase a Colt.

If you answered yes to A and B, then proceed to order the parts you want and assemble away. As stated you can do a complete lower from Ametec and a complete upper and just stick them together and be 1/3 of the way toward having a second one vs. buying a Colt.

Last but not least:

College student, starving, homeless, it doesn't matter you can't have just one. I know you think you can, but then again you obviously have little experience with the advanced stages of BRD.

No matter what you do, the infection will take place. I believe it is transmitted by touch during the condition of ownership. No matter how you catch it, you will.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 12:55:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By 2FALable:
For what it's worth I have two pieces of advice:


#1- Opinions are like.... (Yeah you know the rest...)

This advice is in response to the just as good as Colt and LMT is the only thing on par with Colt.

Let's keep in mind that Colt wouldn't even have the Guberment contract today if it wasn't for some fancy legal behavior. That isn't to say Colt doesn't make a fine weapon, but it isn't platinum and I'd put my hodge podge Colt upper, DPMS lower, Bushmaster barreled KISS AR up against any other manufacturer for reliability, accuracy, and overall function.

#2- Why would we convince you of this? We can't really do that anyway. You either want to build one or you don't.

A. Are you willing to believe that an AR you built is as good as any other or a Colt?

If the answer is no, proceed to purchase a Colt.

B. Is this something you really would like to do?

If no, proceed to purchase a Colt.

If you answered yes to A and B, then proceed to order the parts you want and assemble away. As stated you can do a complete lower from Ametec and a complete upper and just stick them together and be 1/3 of the way toward having a second one vs. buying a Colt.

Last but not least:

College student, starving, homeless, it doesn't matter you can't have just one. I know you think you can, but then again you obviously have little experience with the advanced stages of BRD.

No matter what you do, the infection will take place. I believe it is transmitted by touch during the condition of ownership. No matter how you catch it, you will.


Wise words
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 2:04:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jason_R:
I was originally going to purchase a LE6920 as an all around AR (I'm a college student, so i can't afford a family of them right now!).

I also think I'd like a mid length, and it would be cool to put it together by myself. However, I'm not convinced it will be as relaible, rugged or durable as a Colt. This is probably retarded, so let me know the truth!

I was going to build it out of a Colt lower and upper, but I don't think it's really that necessary. So lay it on me!


I have two Colt AR15's and a Colt M16 also a Shiznit heavy barrel AR built on a Stag lower and some expensive upper parts. They all run very well with no problems. Last year I bought three lowers from RB Precision when they ordered the custom serial numbers. I just built one of them up using a Del-Ton carbine kit. I was happily supprised when I found the lower parts kit to be better quality than some other more expensive kits I've used in the past. The rifle now has about 500 rounds through it with ZERO malfunctions. The DTI (Wilson) barrel is very acurate, I was suprised!!.The only thing I did out of the ordinary was stone and polish the sear surfaces.

So get your self a stripped lower and order one of the Del-Ton kits and you will have it together within an hour. Go shoot the shit out of it and have fun! It will run very well, will be accurate and inexpensive.

Until that day,

D.

Link Posted: 12/30/2006 3:22:38 PM EST
I have two factory Colts, one factory Bushmaster, one factory Armalite, and 7 home builds. Of all the ARs the Colt has the most slop in fit between upper and lower, the worst trigger, and is not one bit more reliable or accurate than any of the others, including my home builds. Now, I am not saying the Colt is junk, far from it, but it is not the end all of ARs IMO.
IMO you do not need to use any of the premium brands to build a very nice AR. The builds I have done on Ameetec lowers (4), DPMS lowers (3), and mostly DPMS uppers have all been just as accurate and dependable as the factory guns save one. My most accurate AR is the Armalite but it is the M15-A4 (T) model and comparing it to the others is apples to oranges.
While it is nice to do builds using premium parts, unless you are trying to build the most expensive and most gee-whiz rifle on the range or a long range, ultra accurate high grade target rifle it is really not necessary to drop all that money to build an accurate and reliable AR. JMO
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 3:37:48 PM EST
Well the extended chamber reamer to make sure the chamber is cut to true 5.6mm specs is about $200.00. then a MOACKs to properly stake the gas key is another $120.00. Brl wrench and torque wrench $70.00.

MPI tested Bolt & quality carrier $120.00. Upper $95.00. lower $115.00. Quality LPK $65.00. Forged charging handle $16.00. Milspec Collapsable stock with correct diameter forged receiver extention $79.00. 1:7 Chrome line brl with Forged F marked FSB and true M4 brl extention $299.00. Gastube, pin & delta ring $20.00. FS $8.00. crush washer $3.00. Handguards $20.00. Carry handle with correct 6/3 windage drum $95.00.

You can do it and have the tools left afterwards to unfuck all the Oly/Armalite/RRA/DPMS/Bushmaster carbines your friends own.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 3:40:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Arkansas_Rocketman:
OK, just do this and I promise that you will have a rifle as good as and probably better than a Colt for about $300 less:

1. Call Pete at Legal Transfers (contact info on the Industry section of AR-15.com).

2. Order a RRA upper and lower from him. RRA will drop ship the upper to you,
Pete will send the lower to your local FFL dealer. Be sure that the lower includes a NM 2 stage trigger, it is the schiznit and well worth the extra money.


sure, if you want a carbine with a rifle FSB & Brl extention, dremel cut feed ramps and 1:9 twist and .223whylde chamber.

Since he wants as good as colt then he wants the correct F marked FSB, correct M4 brl extention, correct 5.56mm chamber, correct 1:7 chrome bore.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 3:48:40 PM EST
Build your own.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 6:51:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2006 6:53:25 PM EST by weptek911]
I agree with or can't find fault with any of the above posters.

I have one other suggestion.

Look for your parts on the EE. You may even find a gently used Colt upper for less than the cost of one of the new "clone" makers. I have bought a bunch of AR stuff from the used section. Most of it looks like new or is better than described.

Build your own . I guaran-damn-tee it won't be your last.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 9:34:41 PM EST
Thanks for the responses...looks like I'm definitely going to build my own. I've kept an ear/eye out for a colt lower, but they all seem $$$...and it doesn't make any more sense to buy a Colt lower/upper than a complete rifle. I'll just buy a quality lower/upper/barrel etc. and go test the biatch out!
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 5:54:03 AM EST
By building your own, you can purchase a piece at a time and get exactly what you want without killing your budget verses buying replacement parts for a complete gun to fit your needs. When all is said and done and you've put it all together, you'll have expert knowledge of your rifle, have as good but likely better quality than Colt, paid less for it and will be twice as proud of yourself and the rifle!
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 7:46:44 AM EST
You can build a rifle that will surpass Colt's quality very easily.

The only drawback is the rifle will have a lower resale value if that matters to you.

I don't buy safe queens or range rifles. I use the crap out of my stuff so it's going to have a reduced resale value anyway (at least until new-manufacture is outlawed, i.e. machineguns).

Link Posted: 12/31/2006 9:53:02 AM EST
Thanks, I've learned a wealth of info!

One question, is it more cost effective to get a complete lower or a stripped lower? Is there any reason not to get complete lower? If I get a stripped lower, I'd have the experience of installing the LPK/trigger and buffer tube/stock assembly.
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 10:30:02 AM EST
Get the stripped lower and a parts kit. The price is about the same, but you'll know how to take it apart and how it works. It took me about an hour to build my lower the first time and now it takes me under 10 minutes to remove, clean, lube, and replace the fire control group.
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 10:47:10 AM EST
Ok thanks.

Another question:

I see some FF rails with what looks like to be the barrel nut behind it, and some that don't have one and almost look like an extension of the flat top receiver's rail. What's the benefit/drawback of both, besides looks?

Where's a good place to buy lower and upper receivers? I'm thinking of using a LMT or POF lower (and upper if I cold find one), but for the upper I'm not sure. Maybe I should start a new thread for my first build?
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 11:15:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2006 11:17:17 AM EST by vmpglenn]
What's your definition of reliable? A rifle that shoots 500 rounds a year on a KD range with no malfunctions? A rifle that goes through multiple training classes annually and sees 5000+ rounds a year with no failures?

if it's the former, you can build using very inexpensive parts and not worry about it. Inexpensive doesn't necessarily mean poor quality, but it usually does mean less QC testing.

If it's the latter, you want a properly staked gas key, MPI bolt, MPI & HPT chrome lined barrel with a correctly sized gas port, proper F-marked FSB pinned perpendicular to the barrel, correctly cut feed ramps, correct recoil buffer, and good middle of the range values for all measured assembly tolerances (e.g. barrel nut torque). This last thing requires having the right tools to assemble an AR correctly, along with the knowledge to use those tools correctly (e.g. the correct sequence for tightening a barrel nut).

Either way, make sure you replace wear items in a timely manner (e.g. after X number of rounds) - stuff like the extractor spring and insert. And don't get too attached to your magazines - these are wear items as well and subtly bent feed lips will cause you no end of heartache. Also, it's a good idea to have at least a spare bolt around, as these can crack at the cam hole after an amazingly few number of rounds if you're unlucky (hence the suggestion to get an MPI bolt).

Throwing together a functional AR is not difficult; ensuring one will go the distance during hard use isn't so easy.
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 11:40:41 AM EST
Check out the CMT with m4 feed ramps. They are a colt subcontractor. Less tha $105 Shipped. CMMG is also a very high Quality Co. On par with Colt. As is LMT. Any will do. I bye the way own all there and have used there parts to buld my own. Great way to learn all there is to learn about your Firearm.
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 11:42:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By vmpglenn:
What's your definition of reliable? A rifle that shoots 500 rounds a year on a KD range with no malfunctions? A rifle that goes through multiple training classes annually and sees 5000+ rounds a year with no failures?

if it's the former, you can build using very inexpensive parts and not worry about it. Inexpensive doesn't necessarily mean poor quality, but it usually does mean less QC testing.

If it's the latter, you want a properly staked gas key, MPI bolt, MPI & HPT chrome lined barrel with a correctly sized gas port, proper F-marked FSB pinned perpendicular to the barrel, correctly cut feed ramps, correct recoil buffer, and good middle of the range values for all measured assembly tolerances (e.g. barrel nut torque). This last thing requires having the right tools to assemble an AR correctly, along with the knowledge to use those tools correctly (e.g. the correct sequence for tightening a barrel nut).

Either way, make sure you replace wear items in a timely manner (e.g. after X number of rounds) - stuff like the extractor spring and insert. And don't get too attached to your magazines - these are wear items as well and subtly bent feed lips will cause you no end of heartache. Also, it's a good idea to have at least a spare bolt around, as these can crack at the cam hole after an amazingly few number of rounds if you're unlucky (hence the suggestion to get an MPI bolt).

Throwing together a functional AR is not difficult; ensuring one will go the distance during hard use isn't so easy.


Well said.

I've seen plenty of "100% reliable" Carbines choke on the second day of a 3-day training class. Firing a couple hundred rounds plinking at the range is not a good test of reliability. A 3-day class firing 1,200 rounds in 110 degree temps will give a better indicator of reliability. The ability to do it 3 or 4 times a year will start to give you an idea of durability.
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 11:43:14 AM EST
Cool, thanks. I want one that can go the distance, and I want to use quality components.

I'll start my own build thread
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 11:44:06 AM EST
usually the difference between a built lower vs a lower and LPK is about 10 to 20 bucks.
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 11:46:51 AM EST
quality vs cheap, usually there is not that big of a difference in price whey you build it yourself. I have seen crappy uppers go for 50 bucks less than a Stag upper.
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