Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 4
Posted: 8/30/2005 5:24:51 AM EDT
Look ma, no sights...


I've started this topic in response to the people who feel the need to tell people they are stupid for not having a BUIS when they have an optic. First of all, I'm limiting this discussion to CIVILIAN rifles. I don't want to talk about the roles of BUIS in military or LEO rifles.

This phenomenon mostly occurs when someone posts a pic of their rifle with no BUIS. They may have no BUIS for many reaasons. Some of them mey be, they just completed the main part of the build and don't have the money to complete it with the BUIS and are just excited and must share with a pic. Or, they only shoot paper or critters, and if their optic fails, well they'll just go home. Or, they've heard and experienced enough that they have confidence that their optic isn't going to fail and why add a few ounces more with a BUIS. Maybe they don't care because if their optic fails, they'll use the glass of the optic as a rear ghost ring. These are a few reasons that come to mind.

My story is this, I built a rifle a couple of weeks ago. My rifle was originally intended to be irons only. So I aquired a DPMS rear detachable BUIS used from the EE. As an unexpected bonus, it had national match parts (small apertures and "N M" marked windage knob). It just so happened that right after my rifle was completed and before my first range session, I got a great deal on an Eotech. I've never had a red dot type optic before, but was very curious after all the things I've heard about them here. So I got it. Now, the DPMS turned out to be a great sight. During my first range session with my new rifle, it proved to be very accurate with the small apertures. I really like it a lot and would reccomend it to anyone who wants only irons. But it is TOTALLY incompatible with the Eotech. And it just so happens, I like the Eotech better and I'm faster and more accurate with it. So the DPMS had to go.

My question for all you BUIS'ers is this: With the now proven track record and durability of the Eotech, why do you even need an iron sight. It's already been proven that even with the glass punctured, the Eotech will continue to function. They even ship dealers a broken one to prove this. Have you ever broken one? Have you ever heard of one being broken? Lithium batts last a long time and the ability to carry spares on your rifle and the ease of changing them out makes battery failure a moot point. Hell, I've got two sets of spares ON MY RIFLE.

Using the BUIS'ers theory that if your Eotech breaks, you need a back up, what if your BUIS breaks? Then what'll you do? You'll be really screwed. Do you BUIS'ers suggest a back up-back up iron sight? How many back up iron sights should we have? Three? Four? Seventeen? Should we cover the entire top rail with BUIS's just to feel safe? What about us carbine guys? We can't fit as many BUIS's on top of our rifle as a 20 incher. Should we stop using carbines so we can install more BUIS's?

I know this is slightly inflammatory, but this is mostly sarcastic (well not really). I feel that with the proven track record of the Eotech, a BUIS for civilians is probably unneeded. What say you, arfcommers? Let's keep it civil and tell me why I should spend another $100 on an already espensive build for a BUIS.

Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:29:12 AM EDT
I brought one rifle to go shooting because it all that we could cary in. My Aimpoint ran out of batteries. I had a BUIS. We could keep shooting and not waste the hour it took us to drive out. We had fun the rest of the day.

There you go, "civilian" needing a BUIS, your point is moot.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:34:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dace:
I brought one rifle to go shooting because it all that we could cary in. My Aimpoint ran out of batteries. I had a BUIS. We could keep shooting and not waste the hour it took us to drive out. We had fun the rest of the day.

There you go, "civilian" needing a BUIS, your point is moot.



If you read my post, you would see the battery issue is not a reason to have a BUIS. I've got lithium AA's in the Eotech and TWO SETS OF SPARES ON MY RIFLE. Two AA lithiums in the pistol grip and two AA lithiums in the vertical grip. Your point, sir has been made moot.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:35:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:39:16 AM EDT by photoman]
Well if yer not going to use BUIS, then why have that FSB on the gun, it looks stupid.

I own two guns that don't have BUIS. A savage 111 and a ruger 10/22. It's because of the savage that I became a believer in BUIS. See I was out deer hunting and moving over some ground. I stepped on what I though was solid ground and it wasn't. I went down and the scope on my savage got busted. Damn now I got a club. I had to walk a mile back to the car to get another gun. On the way back to the car I ened up jumping a group of does, damn could have filled a tag but had no way to shoot an accuretly fired round. That was my one and only chance to get me some deer that day. When I had my 308 built, I spesificly stated that I wanted some type of BUIS provision just because of that one xperiance. I consider BUIS mandatory on all my guns now, simply because that bitchass fucker named Murphy shows up at some of the worst possible times.

You said

But it is TOTALLY incompatible with the Eotech
how is it not compatable? Does it not sit high enough(the EO tech I mean) to cowqitness the sight? If not get a propper mount to cowitness. I've had more optics fail me then I have had BUIS fail me, infact my Arms #40 is still going strong, so is my DPMS detachable A2 rear BUIS. OPTCS will always be more delecate and prone to breakage then an BUIS.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:38:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
Well if yer not going to use BUIS, then why have that FSB on the gun, it looks stupid.

I own two guns that don't have BUIS. A savage 111 and a ruger 10/22. It's because of the savage that I became a believer in BUIS. See I was out deer hunting and moving over some ground. I stepped on what I though was solid ground and it wasn't. I went down and the scope on my savage got busted. Damn now I got a club. I had to walk a mile back to the car to get another gun. On the way back to the car I ened up jumping a group of does, damn could have filled a tag but had no way to shoot an accuretly fired round. That was my one and only chance to get me some deer that day. When I had my 308 built, I spesificly stated that I wanted some type of BUIS provision just because of that one xperiance. I consider BUIS mandatory on all my guns now, simply because that bitchass fucker named Murphy shows up at some of the worst possible times.



The front sight base is being taken care of with a low profile gas block.

As for your other point, I choose an Eotech. I have never heard of one being broken to the point that it could not be used. Have you? I use the Eotech for a reason, because it works all the time. Maybe you should consider one as well.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:40:03 AM EDT
Range gun/safe queen-----> No BUIS=no big deal

Defensive/Go to rifle----> No BUIS= Bad juju

If you're building a defensive rifle and run out of money before you can afford a BUIS then you should have bought the BUIS first and practiced without an optic until you could afford the optic.........IMHO.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:42:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terdferguson:

Originally Posted By photoman:
Well if yer not going to use BUIS, then why have that FSB on the gun, it looks stupid.

I own two guns that don't have BUIS. A savage 111 and a ruger 10/22. It's because of the savage that I became a believer in BUIS. See I was out deer hunting and moving over some ground. I stepped on what I though was solid ground and it wasn't. I went down and the scope on my savage got busted. Damn now I got a club. I had to walk a mile back to the car to get another gun. On the way back to the car I ened up jumping a group of does, damn could have filled a tag but had no way to shoot an accuretly fired round. That was my one and only chance to get me some deer that day. When I had my 308 built, I spesificly stated that I wanted some type of BUIS provision just because of that one xperiance. I consider BUIS mandatory on all my guns now, simply because that bitchass fucker named Murphy shows up at some of the worst possible times.



The front sight base is being taken care of with a low profile gas block.

As for your other point, I choose an Eotech. I have never heard of one being broken to the point that it could not be used. Have you? I use the Eotech for a reason, because it works all the time. Maybe you should consider one as well.



Saw a guy completely shatter the glass in an EoTech once does that count? And no it wasn't usable after that Now granted it was a very freak incident but he still managed to do it. It would not have happened I don't think, in the course of normal use. However there is always, and I do mean always a possibility that an optic, especially a battery powered one will go down. Drawcut had issues with his at acarbine class where it cut out on him, he had to go BUIS for the rest of the day. It does happen. I'd rather have the BUIS and never have to use them, then not have them the one time I ned them.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:43:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:
Range gun/safe queen-----> No BUIS=no big deal

Defensive/Go to rifle----> No BUIS= Bad juju

If you're building a defensive rifle and run out of money before you can afford a BUIS then you should have bought the BUIS first and practiced without an optic until you could afford the optic.........IMHO.



That sounds familiar



Oh thats right, because thats what I did.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:48:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:


You said

But it is TOTALLY incompatible with the Eotech
how is it not compatable? Does it not sit high enough(the EO tech I mean) to cowqitness the sight? If not get a propper mount to cowitness. I've had more optics fail me then I have had BUIS fail me, infact my Arms #40 is still going strong, so is my DPMS detachable A2 rear BUIS. OPTCS will always be more delecate and prone to breakage then an BUIS.



Co-witness is over rated and Hollywood. And yes, the DPMS is TOTALLY incompatible with the Eotech. The apertures are WAY too small to have any sort of proper co-witness. The irons are just "in the way". I would say a small flip up BUIS with moving parts would be more prone to breakage than the Eotech with it's guard around the whole optic.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:49:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:51:06 AM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:50:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:
Range gun/safe queen-----> No BUIS=no big deal

Defensive/Go to rifle----> No BUIS= Bad juju

If you're building a defensive rifle and run out of money before you can afford a BUIS then you should have bought the BUIS first and practiced without an optic until you could afford the optic.........IMHO.



That was only one reason I imagined someone may not have an iron sight, not my reason. But you make a valid point none the less. Not valid enough to justify another $100. I'm sure we can agree that the Eotech is vastly superior in every way than your average BUIS. It is faster to aquire, offers a bigger field of view, and with it's larger circle is easier to range targets.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:53:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
Not sure why your BUIS wasn't compatible with your EOTech, but many BUIS systems are compatible. ETA: I just read your newest post, and the answer is that if you take off the EOTech when you aren't using it, the irons will work just fine.

The only reason that I can think of to NOT have a BUIS is to save a very small amount of weight on the rifle. Other than that, there is really no "down side", except maybe some cost.

If you want to have an optic only, and wish to save a couple of ounces or a few bucks, it's your call.

Personally, I do have them on my AR, and I also have back-up sights for my precision long range bolt rifle that always wears a scope. If I had a scope failure with my long gun, I can put the set of Olympic target sights on the pre-installed dovetail mounting points, and I have a fully-adjustable sighting system for Palma-style shooting that can go out to 1000 yds if needed.

To each his own.
For me, backup irons are worth it.



For the record, I'm buying a Troy Industries BUIS. Mostly out of the paranoid fear you BUIS'ers have given me that one day, my Eotech may possibly fail. And I'd really like to exclude scopes from this equasion. They are far more fragile than the Eotech.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:54:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
ETA: I just read your newest post, and the answer is that if you take off the EOTech when you aren't using it, the irons will work just fine.

.



Why in the world would I want to take off my Eotech?
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:55:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terdferguson:

I have never heard of one being broken to the point that it could not be used. Have you? I use the Eotech for a reason, because it works all the time. Maybe you should consider one as well.



Have you ever seen the mounting screw sheared in half........I have. Granted the EOtech hit the deck hard, but still functioned....the only problem was there was no way of getting it to stay on the rilfe.

Shit happens....plan for the worst and pray for the best. Your "plan" entails using the EoTech window in case the batteries crap out....what are you gonna do if your screw shears and the EoTech hits the dirt.......something to think about. It's may be your life.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:58:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:59:14 AM EDT by terdferguson]

Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:

Originally Posted By terdferguson:

I have never heard of one being broken to the point that it could not be used. Have you? I use the Eotech for a reason, because it works all the time. Maybe you should consider one as well.



Have you ever seen the mounting screw sheared in half........I have. Granted the EOtech hit the deck hard, but still functioned....the only problem was there was no way of getting it to stay on the rilfe.

Shit happens....plan for the worst and pray for the best. Your "plan" entails using the EoTech window in case the batteries crap out....what are you gonna do if your screw shears and the EoTech hits the dirt.......something to think about. It's may be your life.



I've also got the spare screw and allen wrench that came with the Eotech in my grip for just such an occasion, but you make a valid point. It makes as much sense to have such spares for your Eotech as it does to have a BUIS. And I do have TWO SETS OF SPARE LITHIUM BATTS ON MY RIFLE AND TWO MORE IN MY PACK.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:58:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:59:26 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By terdferguson:

Originally Posted By photoman:


You said

But it is TOTALLY incompatible with the Eotech
how is it not compatable? Does it not sit high enough(the EO tech I mean) to cowqitness the sight? If not get a propper mount to cowitness. I've had more optics fail me then I have had BUIS fail me, infact my Arms #40 is still going strong, so is my DPMS detachable A2 rear BUIS. OPTCS will always be more delecate and prone to breakage then an BUIS.



Co-witness is over rated and Hollywood. And yes, the DPMS is TOTALLY incompatible with the Eotech. The apertures are WAY too small to have any sort of proper co-witness. The irons are just "in the way". I would say a small flip up BUIS with moving parts would be more prone to breakage than the Eotech with it's guard around the whole optic.



Co-witness is not over rated and hollywood. I turned my dot sight off durring a break in class and forgot to turn it back on when we got back on the line, when we had to shoot I was still GTG and didn't miss a beat because I had a BUIS.

Well part of the incompatability is that you have a match sight, match sights don't belong on fighting guns, or with fighting optics, which is what the eo thingy is. I've never had an issue runing mine in which they were int the way. And like I said I run an ARMS #40 and never had a problem, of course it is always in the down position when I have a scope on the gun even most of the time with a red dot on the gun the BUIS is folded down, so no, the optic will have more issues then the BUIS.

I got to ask though, how much do you shoot and what type of shooting do you do? How many classes have you taken(if yer not .mil/LE)?
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:02:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 6:04:22 AM EDT by JTrusty]
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:04:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:04:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By terdferguson:

Originally Posted By photoman:


You said

But it is TOTALLY incompatible with the Eotech
how is it not compatable? Does it not sit high enough(the EO tech I mean) to cowqitness the sight? If not get a propper mount to cowitness. I've had more optics fail me then I have had BUIS fail me, infact my Arms #40 is still going strong, so is my DPMS detachable A2 rear BUIS. OPTCS will always be more delecate and prone to breakage then an BUIS.



Co-witness is over rated and Hollywood. And yes, the DPMS is TOTALLY incompatible with the Eotech. The apertures are WAY too small to have any sort of proper co-witness. The irons are just "in the way". I would say a small flip up BUIS with moving parts would be more prone to breakage than the Eotech with it's guard around the whole optic.



Co-witness is not over rated and hollywood. I turned my dot sight off durring a break in class and forgot to turn it back on when we got back on the line, when we had to shoot I was still GTG and didn't miss a beat because I had a BUIS.

Well part of the incompatability is that you have a match sight, match sights don't belong on fighting guns, or with fighting optics, which is what the eo thingy is. I've never had an issue runing mine in which they were int the way. And like I said I run an ARMS #40 and never had a problem, of course it is always in the down position when I have a scope on the gun even most of the time with a red dot on the gun the BUIS is folded down, so no, the optic will have more issues then the BUIS.

I got to ask though, how much do you shoot and what type of shooting do you do? How many classes have you taken(if yer not .mil/LE)?



I am also a member of lightfighter.net, the home of many many mil types and a lot of operators. One of the famous ones gave me the quote that co-witness is over rated and Hollywood. The irons get in the way. All you should see is a red dot center mass on the bad guy, according to most "special" mil types.

My rifle is for fun and for serious duty. I shoot as often as possible, at least once a month 500 rounds or so. And who says the Eotech has to be a "fighting" only option. I use it to pop two liter soda bottles at 100 meters all the time.

Once again, I didn't limit this discussion to "fighting" guns. In fact I excluded military and LEo applications from this discussion. Take that co-witness shite with you. Class is one thing, real world experience is another.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:06:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JTrusty:
What about the inverse situation. A rear BUIS w/Optic but no FSB?

www.jtrusty.com/misc/sst9200_1.jpg

But seriously. I can understand your pain. You were probably excited, wanting to share you build with the community and probably took some heat for not having a rear iron. Don't sweat it, its your carbine, you can do whatever you like.

However, in a life/death situation it would really be in your best interest to have some irons on there. If this is a plinker/range weapon, probably not as critical.

Optics no matter how well made and durable can and will fail. Will they fail for you? Probably not. But I sure as heck wouldn't want to find out at the wrong time.



I DO have a rear iron. Please read my posts.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:06:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:06:39 AM EDT
Range use there is no need other then training, yet train how you plan to fight. That said two is one, one is none as we all know.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:07:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TerdFerguson
Why in the world would I want to take off my Eotech?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Naturally, you'd take it off when it is broken.
If you think it can never break, then you are in a dream world.
There has never been an electrical device made that doesn't break.
I work with electronic systems all the time, and they all break, some even under warrantee in a very short time.

Another reason might be if you want to take a shot that requires more precision than a red-dot sighting system can provide, without subtending the target with the dot. Or you might want to make some elevation adjustments quickly and easily.




I'm not in a dream world, I've just never heard of this happening outside of hard mil type use or abuse. Please provide evidence instead of "might".

King Kong "might" come after me, but then I'll need to upgun.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:11:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:14:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
I don't need to convince you.
What you do is your business.

If you ever worked in the electronics industry, you'd know exactly what I mean.



I'm asking to be convinced here. That's what this discussion is about. Please provide evidence of the failure rate of the Eotech outside of military/LEO use and or abuse.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:19:38 AM EDT
I have a Buis because I don't ALWAYS like to use my optic. Some people here were trained to use their irons at 500 meters, and I have to say, it's way more fun to use irons than scopes IMHO. When I'm at the range, I might want to take off my AIMPOINT with ARMS quick detaching mount so I can just use irons, or maybe just turn off my Aimpoint. It doesn't make sense for me to have to take an optic off, then attach a carry handle then detach the carry handle to reattach my aimpoint, when one flip of the thumb and my aimpoint can be off, and it goes on just as easy. My irons stay sighted in and ready for me.

I replaced my expensive Troy Buis for an ARMS 40 just because of the smaller peep sight. If i would have waited for the newer Troy sight, I wouldn't have bought the ARMS. But theres no sense in wasting money on a new BUIS when i have 1 too many. The arms works fine.

I think the question that should be asked here is "Why use an Optic, instead of irons?" My reason for the optic is for "point and click" shooting inside my house when i'm too sleepy to cover my eye with a iron sight. I use it on the range for practice for emergency save my family situations. I should prolly just buy a shotgun, but wheres the fun in that???
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:21:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:21:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chris157c:
I have a Buis because I don't ALWAYS like to use my optic. Some people here were trained to use their irons at 500 meters, and I have to say, it's way more fun to use irons than scopes IMHO. When I'm at the range, I might want to take off my AIMPOINT with ARMS quick detaching mount so I can just use irons, or maybe just turn off my Aimpoint. It doesn't make sense for me to have to take an optic off, then attach a carry handle then detach the carry handle to reattach my aimpoint, when one flip of the thumb and my aimpoint can be off, and it goes on just as easy. My irons stay sighted in and ready for me.

I replaced my expensive Troy Buis for an ARMS 40 just because of the smaller peep sight. If i would have waited for the newer Troy sight, I wouldn't have bought the ARMS. But theres no sense in wasting money on a new BUIS when i have 1 too many. The arms works fine.

I think the question that should be asked here is "Why use an Optic, instead of irons?" My reason for the optic is for "point and click" shooting inside my house when i'm too sleepy to cover my eye with a iron sight. I use it on the range for practice for emergency save my family situations. I should prolly just buy a shotgun, but wheres the fun in that???



I'd argue that the optic is faster to aquire and more accurate than irons.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:23:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
Just ask EOTech.
They'll tell you.
You can ask them if they've ever needed to warrantee repair or replace a unit.
They will say yes.
I don't know what the rate is, but if it is anything like the rest of the electronics industry, then 2% - 4% of all units made will either be DOA or break under warrantee. With TV's it can be up to 10% failure under warrantee.
Then after warrantee, there is no telling how long it will last. Maybe ten years? Maybe ten days? Nobody knows.

If you are a lucky one in the majority, and it lasts for a long time, and you never "drop it just right" which causes breakage, then it will last as long as the batteries do, and you can replace those.

If you happen to be an unlucky one in the minority, then it will break.
Sure the manufacturer will stand behind it or fix it.
Hopefully you didn't need the gun when it happened.



How's the failure rate of BUIS's compared to the failure rate of all electronics in the industry?
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:23:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terdferguson:

I'm asking to be convinced here. That's what this discussion is about. Please provide evidence of the failure rate of the Eotech outside of military/LEO use and or abuse.



The one I referenced above was. It also happened on a static range....... no warning, no wear signs, and less than a few hundred rounds.

It's great that you have an allen wrench and spare screw, but imagine how much longer it takes to replace that screw (and lose a positive zero in the process), instead of just flipping up an iron.

Since you DO have an iron now, go to the range and test that situation out with a timer:

Time yourself on how long it takes to remove "broken" screw, replace it, and get back on target (also note the POI shift, if any).

Next, time yourself on how long it takes to flip up a BUIS and get back on target (simulating an EoTech failure, simply keep it turned off from the beginning of the test).

As said before, it's your life. Do with it what you will......
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:25:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:25:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 6:26:26 AM EDT by HardShell]
Someone here (Lumpy, maybe ) had a great post/thread a while back about using only the EOTech "frame" (as if it was broken/disabled) in conjunction with the front post (no rear BUIS) as a "rough sight" - sort of like an overly-large ghost-ring. IIRC, with practice he had very good results at typical HD/SD ranges...

(Goes off to find old thread... )
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:26:50 AM EDT
Need has little to do with it. If we want it, and that about ends the discussion. Wants have little to do with needs and logic. Do you "need" an AR15?
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:27:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:

Originally Posted By terdferguson:

I'm asking to be convinced here. That's what this discussion is about. Please provide evidence of the failure rate of the Eotech outside of military/LEO use and or abuse.



The one I referenced above was. It also happened on a static range....... no warning, no wear signs, and less than a few hundred rounds.

It's great that you have an allen wrench and spare screw, but imagine how much longer it takes to replace that screw (and lose a positive zero in the process), instead of just flipping up an iron.

Since you DO have an iron now, go to the range and test that situation out with a timer:

Time yourself on how long it takes to remove "broken" screw, replace it, and get back on target (also note the POI shift, if any).

Next, time yourself on how long it takes to flip up a BUIS and get back on target (simulating an EoTech failure, simply keep it turned off from the beginning of the test).

As said before, it's your life. Do with it what you will......



I had the iron BEFORE I had the Eotech. I'd argue that BUIS's are more fragile than the Eotech because of their moving parts and can be broken by dropping as easily as the Eotech. Are we talking range or fighting? It's faster to use the Eotech glass as a ghost ring than it is to flip up a sight.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:27:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 6:28:42 AM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:28:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Duffy:
Need has little to do with it. If we want it, and that about ends the discussion. Wants have little to do with needs and logic. Do you "need" an AR15?



Of course I "need" an AR15. You better be quiet or my wife will make me sell it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:28:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 6:32:54 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By terdferguson:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By terdferguson:

Originally Posted By photoman:


You said

But it is TOTALLY incompatible with the Eotech
how is it not compatable? Does it not sit high enough(the EO tech I mean) to cowqitness the sight? If not get a propper mount to cowitness. I've had more optics fail me then I have had BUIS fail me, infact my Arms #40 is still going strong, so is my DPMS detachable A2 rear BUIS. OPTCS will always be more delecate and prone to breakage then an BUIS.



Co-witness is over rated and Hollywood. And yes, the DPMS is TOTALLY incompatible with the Eotech. The apertures are WAY too small to have any sort of proper co-witness. The irons are just "in the way". I would say a small flip up BUIS with moving parts would be more prone to breakage than the Eotech with it's guard around the whole optic.



Co-witness is not over rated and hollywood. I turned my dot sight off durring a break in class and forgot to turn it back on when we got back on the line, when we had to shoot I was still GTG and didn't miss a beat because I had a BUIS.

Well part of the incompatability is that you have a match sight, match sights don't belong on fighting guns, or with fighting optics, which is what the eo thingy is. I've never had an issue runing mine in which they were int the way. And like I said I run an ARMS #40 and never had a problem, of course it is always in the down position when I have a scope on the gun even most of the time with a red dot on the gun the BUIS is folded down, so no, the optic will have more issues then the BUIS.

I got to ask though, how much do you shoot and what type of shooting do you do? How many classes have you taken(if yer not .mil/LE)?





I am also a member of lightfighter.net, the home of many many mil types and a lot of operators. One of the famous ones gave me the quote that co-witness is over rated and Hollywood. The irons get in the way. All you should see is a red dot center mass on the bad guy, according to most "special" mil types.

My rifle is for fun and for serious duty. I shoot as often as possible, at least once a month 500 rounds or so. And who says the Eotech has to be a "fighting" only option. I use it to pop two liter soda bottles at 100 meters all the time.

Once again, I didn't limit this discussion to "fighting" guns. In fact I excluded military and LEo applications from this discussion. Take that co-witness shite with you. Class is one thing, real world experience is another.


The EoTech is a fighting optic, you may not use it that way but thats what it is.

Also I don't care about what other forums you post to or who told you that a BUIS is hollywood. I don't care about that shit. I asked what experiance you have, how much you shoot and what type of shooting simply because for the type of shooting you do, and the frequency that you shoot, you may never need a BUIS. But for me It's a definate need. My ARs are my house guns. They are for defensive use first, and everything else, including fun second. If that dot goes down on my one gun there needs to be something there. I've never had a problem not seeing that dot on a target because the BUIS was in the way. I shoot two to three times a week depending on ammo on hand. I also asked about classes you have taken because thats one of the best ways that us non .mil/le folks can shake down are gear and find out what works and what doesn't. Though my classes and my own practice sessions I've found that a BUIS is better to have and not need. Because not having one is just a PITA. It cost me filling my deer tags, and I had to change out guns to one that wasn't as well suited to the area I was hunting in.

Having them help lessen the potential headaches.

I'm not LE or .mil, and as I said my guns are defensive use guns first and formost, they are fighting guns. What I say comes from my personal experiance, not somone elses, because all our experiances are different. My experiances have shown me that a BUIS is a need and vbaluable thing to have.

ETA: one last time, and what preytell is your real world experiance??
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:28:54 AM EDT
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:30:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
Look , I'm done here.

You've obviously convinced yourself that your EOTech is perfect forever, and that you don't need to spend that extra hundred bucks.

I can see when I'm banging my head against the wall.


Have fun.



Don't be "done here", just provide me evidence to back up your claims. I am convinced the Eotech is better than irons. I'm asking you, the arfcommers as a collective community, to convince me otherwise. I have vast experience with irons. This is my first red dot type optic and I like it better than irons. What's wrong with that? This is a discussion, not a fight.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:31:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terdferguson:
I had the iron BEFORE I had the Eotech. I'd argue that BUIS's are more fragile than the Eotech because of their moving parts and can be broken by dropping as easily as the Eotech. Are we talking range or fighting? It's faster to use the Eotech glass as a ghost ring than it is to flip up a sight.



Buy a FIXED BUIS!!!!! LaRue, Cut Carry handle....whatever.


Dude....if the screw breaks....your window is gonna be about 4 feet south of the rest of your rifle.

This so called "discussion" is like trying to convince someone to wear a seatbelt or keep a fire extinguisher in the kitchen......like twl....I will now bow out of this one. I hope you take something positive from it
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:32:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 6:34:19 AM EDT by terdferguson]

Originally Posted By photoman:
The EoTech is a fighting optic, you may not use it that way but thats what it is.

Also I don't care about what other forums you post to or who told you theat a BUIS is hollywood. I don't care about that shit. I asked what experiance you have, how much you shoot and what type of shooting simply because for the type of shooting you do, and the frequency that you shoot, you may never need a BUIS. But for me It's a definate need. My ARs are my house guns. They are for defensive use first, and everything else, including fun second. If that dot goes down on my one gun there needs to be something there. I've never had a problem not seeing that dot on a target because the BUIS was in the way. I shoot two to three times a week depending on ammo on hand. I also asked about classes you have taken because thats one of the best ways that us non .mil/le folks can shake down are dear and find out what works and what doesn't. Though my classes and my own practice sessions I've found that a BUIS is better to have and not need. Because not having one is just a PITA. It cost me filling my deer tags, and I had to change out guns to one that wasn't as well suited to the area I was hunting in.

Having them help lessen the potential headaches.

I'm not LE or .mil, and as I said my guns are defensive use guns first and formost, they are fighting guns. What I say comes from my personal experiance, not somone elses, because all our experiances are different. My experiances have shown me that a BUIS is a need and vbaluable thing to have.

ETA: one last time, and what preytell is your real world experiance??



You have come the closest so far as to convince me that a BUIS is needed. And for the record, I never said MY real world experience, I was talking about the real world experience of others who have "been there and done that" for REAL.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:35:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 6:36:13 AM EDT by terdferguson]

Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:

Originally Posted By terdferguson:
I had the iron BEFORE I had the Eotech. I'd argue that BUIS's are more fragile than the Eotech because of their moving parts and can be broken by dropping as easily as the Eotech. Are we talking range or fighting? It's faster to use the Eotech glass as a ghost ring than it is to flip up a sight.



Buy a FIXED BUIS!!!!! LaRue, Cut Carry handle....whatever.


Dude....if the screw breaks....your window is gonna be about 4 feet south of the rest of your rifle.

This so called "discussion" is like trying to convince someone to wear a seatbelt or keep a fire extinguisher in the kitchen......like twl....I will now bow out of this one. I hope you take something positive from it



I have a fixed iron sight. It is incompatible with the Eotech because it limits the field of view and is just a plain f'ed up sight picture. I don't why know everyone is getting so worked up. this is supposed to stay civil.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:38:16 AM EDT
Terd,

Going to make this blunt. A rifle is a potential weapon.

If you are a pacifist and refuse to use your rifle anywhere other then at the range you do not need a BUIS.

If you see your rifle as a tool to possibly aid in your survival which you want to train with you need a BUIS.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:39:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 6:41:48 AM EDT by chris157c]

Originally Posted By terdferguson:

I'd argue that the optic is faster to aquire and more accurate than irons.



optics are used for precision, irons for engagment. either will miss target if not properly adjusted for wind, elevation and distance. When I'm on the range, I don't go for 1 inch groups with my AR. Even though its very capable of that at 200 yards. If i wanted precision, i wouldn't have a red dot scope on my weapon, I'd use a mil dot reticle scope like a leupold.

You might be better with your red dot than your irons, but i shoot equally well with BOTH most of the time better with irons. A trait that seems to be dying here with all these gadget crazy people on this forum. A small handful of us love our irons just as much as our optics. Not all people think this way. It boils down to personal preference, and personal skill. Why do you like red when i like blue? Because you do. you have to ask your questions with an open mind to gather information on others opinions, not to prove a point. MANY people here with tell you back up irons ar e a must, some will say not so. If you don't want one don't get one. If you feel theres a need for it, get one...
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:40:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terdferguson:
I have a fixed iron sight. It is incompatible with the Eotech because it limits the field of view and is just a plain f'ed up sight picture. I don't why know everyone is getting so worked up. this is supposed to stay civil.



Then buy one that is compatible. ....or put that EoTech on a riser....do something to make it work. I'm not getting worked up....but you never answered my question.....what are you gonna do when you don't have a BUIS and your EoTech hits the deck......


Let me guess....you have a paper towel roll with two pieces of high speed plexi-glass and a roll of MacGyver tape.....

This is gettin' ridiculous.....your reasoning is not logical.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:42:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By none_other:
Terd,

Going to make this blunt. A rifle is a potential weapon.

If you are a pacifist and refuse to use your rifle anywhere other then at the range you do not need a BUIS.

If you see your rifle as a tool to possibly aid in your survival which you want to train with you need a BUIS.



I use my rifle at the range and for defense. I appreciate your comments. For the record, I stated above that I'm getting a Troy to be more compatible than my DPMS with the Eotech because I've become paranoid that the optic will fail. But I still feel that a folding BUIS would have a higher failure rate than the Eotech. Can anyone prove or disprove this?
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:43:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 6:50:01 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
IMHO, any type of firearm that may be used for self defense or combat should have some type of iron sights. It may not be always needed but when you need it you really need it. It's like using a motorcycle helmet, seat belt or backing up your data. It's there for BACK-UP.

You should also be proficient in the use of iron sights before adding optics and having a BUIS allows you to maintian this perishable skill even if you have an optic as a primary sight.

Personally I prefer the Troy dual aperture BUIS. One nice thing about having a BUIS is that I can flip it up and confirm that my EOTech is zeroed properly if it takes a hard bump or it is removed for some reason.

Have you been using the EOTech long? BTW, I'm a long time EOTech user and also believe that it's proven itself to be rugged and durable but shit still happens.

I'm also wondering why you want to get a low profile gas block? If you're using the EOTech properly with both eyes open and using the a target focus then the FSB will ghost out you will not even notice it. I think you need to train more with your EOTech before spending money to change out the FSB.

Also, in your original post it's sounds like you are little confused about how BUIS cowitnessing works. You don't use both the BUSI and the red dot at the same time, you only uses one or the other. Cowitness, absolute or 1/3, means that both the BUIS and red dot are zeroed at the same POI and if the optic goes down you can see through it and use the irons.

It's also starting look like you're just here to stir up shit because it already looks like you've made your mind up and don't really care about the reasons for having a BUIS.

I and others who replied to you post have given some good reasons for having a BUIS and if you're still not convinced that's fine with me because I couldn't care less whether you have BUIS or not.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:43:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:

Originally Posted By terdferguson:
I have a fixed iron sight. It is incompatible with the Eotech because it limits the field of view and is just a plain f'ed up sight picture. I don't why know everyone is getting so worked up. this is supposed to stay civil.



Then buy one that is compatible. ....or put that EoTech on a riser....do something to make it work. I'm not getting worked up....but you never answered my question.....what are you gonna do when you don't have a BUIS and your EoTech hits the deck......


Let me guess....you have a paper towel roll with two pieces of high speed plexi-glass and a roll of MacGyver tape.....

This is gettin' ridiculous.....your reasoning is not logical.



I already stated I have a Troy on the way. As far as what I would do, I'd use the Eotech's glass as a big ghost ring. If it fell off, I'd do the same thing I'd do if my BUIS failed. That is, I'd do the best I could with the front sight post.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:45:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 6:50:27 AM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:46:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terdferguson:
But I still feel that a folding BUIS would have a higher failure rate than the Eotech. Can anyone prove or disprove this?



Your AR-15 has MANY more moving parts than a BUIS, how many times has it failed you???

An Eotech has GLASS and BATTERIES/electrical components, all more prone to breakage than metal or springs. Just think about it. BUIS fold down to protect it from being broken, it should not be flipped up unless your sight is not operational or not on the weapon.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:48:36 AM EDT
Well if you have no need for spare which is what a BUIS is, then you should no need for
a spare tire in you're vehicle. Only military & police should have a spare tire?

No flame intended just another point of view.

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 4
Top Top