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Posted: 11/21/2012 4:28:16 PM EST
Ok, I know everyone has their preferences and brand loyalty, so I'm not looking for a recommendation on which brand to pick. I figure for a budget build and the lack of parts currently I'm going to buy what I can afford and hope most of the major brands do a good job on their fit and finish. Like I said I am looking at a budget build, so looking at RRA, Stag, Palmetto, etc. My question is, is there any brands to stay away from? I don't hear much about DoubleStar, or DPMS, are they ok? I'm concerned mainly with construction, but also customer service if I do have problems. Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:43:54 PM EST
Blackthorne
Hesse
Vulcan
Olympic Arms
Rguns

those are my top 5 based on review activity I've seen here since becoming a member.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:56:11 PM EST
Quoted:
Blackthorne
Hesse
Vulcan
Olympic Arms
Rguns

those are my top 5 based on review activity I've seen here since becoming a member.


Yep. Way to many threads about serious issues with those brands.

I would like to add Head Down Products.

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:59:27 PM EST
A lot don't care for DPMS.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:09:01 PM EST
DPMS has a good following up here in the frozen north. They are out of MN so people tend to lean in their direction...I see a bunch of them..
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:15:13 PM EST
Quoted:
A lot don't care for DPMS.


Why?

Because that's what they heard?

I have never bought one, and there are none in my safe now, but I have gotten 2-3 through trade and put enough rounds through them to know they were just fine.

I am not afraid of them. Based on actually shooting them.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:20:59 PM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot don't care for DPMS.


Why?

Because that's what they heard?

I have never bought one, and there are none in my safe now, but I have gotten 2-3 through trade and put enough rounds through them to know they were just fine.

I am not afraid of them. Based on actually shooting them.


I've seen some seriously pathetic shit from DPMS.

Was at a class and the shooter next to me had the charging handle break off in his hand as he was charging the rifle. Nobody had a spare CH; it deadlined the rifle for the rest of the day.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:21:32 PM EST
They are still selling Roggio lowers.

Run very fast.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:44:44 PM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot don't care for DPMS.


Why?

Because that's what they heard?

I have never bought one, and there are none in my safe now, but I have gotten 2-3 through trade and put enough rounds through them to know they were just fine.

I am not afraid of them. Based on actually shooting them.


I've seen some seriously pathetic shit from DPMS.

Was at a class and the shooter next to me had the charging handle break off in his hand as he was charging the rifle. Nobody had a spare CH; it deadlined the rifle for the rest of the day.


Right, because all the big, beefy BCM upgraded charging handles flying off their website are fixing DPMS-only breakages.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:46:20 PM EST
I was looking at DPMS as my last option. I'm torn between RRA, Stag and PSA. I know Spikes, Bravo Company and DD are good, but they seem harder to find available or are more expensive. How do ya'll feel about CMMG? Thanks for all the insight so far!
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:52:15 PM EST
I've owned CMMG carbines in the past and presently have a CMMG lower attached to my LWRCi upper.  I've never had an issue with CMMG.  However, there is some negative opinions about their customer service, although I can't say because I've never required their CS.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:52:26 PM EST
colt
rguns
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:57:28 PM EST
Quoted:
colt
rguns


Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:00:07 PM EST
I agree with avoiding Colt, and Ruger and H&K as well, because they have, in the past, taken serious stands on the wrong side of the fence.
Almost as urgent is to avoid anything with a polymer lower.  They'll maybe get good, sometime in the future, but for now, they ain't.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:36:19 PM EST
Yes...avoid Colt, H&K, Ruger, S&W, LMT, LWRC, LaRue, Armalite, Stag, RRA, POF, DPMS, CMMG, Bushmaster, Windham and Sig. I have heard all sorts of things about those brands. I tend to purchase all of my SHTF rifles from Century. Very high quality.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:52:45 PM EST
As far as a build goes, don't shy away from a DPMS lower.  It has been my favorite of all my builds I think because it is finished so well.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:54:07 PM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot don't care for DPMS.


Why?

Because that's what they heard?

I have never bought one, and there are none in my safe now, but I have gotten 2-3 through trade and put enough rounds through them to know they were just fine.

I am not afraid of them. Based on actually shooting them.


I've seen some seriously pathetic shit from DPMS.

Was at a class and the shooter next to me had the charging handle break off in his hand as he was charging the rifle. Nobody had a spare CH; it deadlined the rifle for the rest of the day.


Right, because all the big, beefy BCM upgraded charging handles flying off their website are fixing DPMS-only breakages.


Why is it that whenever somebody's shitty pet brand is described in a negative light, they always turn around and launch an attack on the quality brands like BCM, Colt, DD? Inferiority complex or something? Jesus dude BCM wasn't even part of the conversation until you brought them into it; I was just relating an incidence of DPMS failure that I saw with my own two eyes.

ETA: And to clarify, I'm not talking about the latch pulling itself out which is what the BCM charging handle was designed to prevent. I mean the shaft of the charging handle broke in half. Total WTF moment.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:56:41 PM EST
Quoted:
I was looking at DPMS as my last option. I'm torn between RRA, Stag and PSA. I know Spikes, Bravo Company and DD are good, but they seem harder to find available or are more expensive. How do ya'll feel about CMMG? Thanks for all the insight so far!


I've had bad experience with CMMG.  Parts were out of spec and their customer service was terrible.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:15:14 PM EST
Quoted:
Yes...avoid Colt, H&K, Ruger, S&W, LMT, LWRC, LaRue, Armalite, Stag, RRA, POF, DPMS, CMMG, Bushmaster, Windham and Sig. I have heard all sorts of things about those brands. I tend to purchase all of my SHTF rifles from Century. Very high quality.


haha
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 9:55:47 PM EST
I always love how people bash things they have no actual experience with.
You are going to hear more bad things about less expensive equipment
because they sell a boat load more of it to more people. You only hear about the
.1% that is bad and not the 99.9% that worked well.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 10:22:16 PM EST
as long as the parts are in spec it doesn't really matter what brand box it came in.

some of the pricier kits/parts may have a little nicer fit/finish to them but they all get the job done. i've had great success with stag as well as cmmg and dpms.  

The parts where you may want to splurge a little is on the barrel, bcg and optics.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 10:27:56 PM EST
You will have no issuse with CMMG. Machining, fit and finish are 1st class. Good group to deal with.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 3:22:25 AM EST
Quoted:
I always love how people bash things they have no actual experience with.
You are going to hear more bad things about less expensive equipment
because they sell a boat load more of it to more people. You only hear about the
.1% that is bad and not the 99.9% that worked well.


Agree with the sentiment in this post.   Entry level guns are a good thing.  They get people into the hobby and result in more people appreciating their 2a rights.  What you describe is the internet echo chamber.  Gun guys, especially the tier-heads can be worse than teenage "meangirls". It's one of the aspects of the shooting community that most gets on my nerves.

I have several very expensive ar piston rifles.

I also have owned olympic and own a dpms.

All worked fine for their intended purpose.

ETA: Damn! Wasted post 545 on an AR thread!
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 4:26:49 AM EST
Thanks guys for the help there were a few listed here that I was skeptical of and ya'll confirmed those feelings for me. I'll be sticking to the major brands listed here and just hope I get a good specimen.

Link Posted: 11/22/2012 4:29:09 AM EST
primuspilum, I agree whole-heartedly with your 2nd amendment observation. I've grown up with guns, but they were never a big part of my life as my dad was disabled. We bonded more over cars, and I was always more into pistols. I never wanted to own a rifle until the AR bug hit me. That just happened to coincide with Obama's reelection, and then I learned about his views on gun rights (I never thought he was progun, but hadn't thought he would plan a ban on them) when I took my first trip to a local gun shop in a looong time. I've become more aware of my 2nd amendment rights and how fragile they are in today's climate. Thanks to everyone on here for helping newbies like me out and steering us in the right course!
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 5:12:07 AM EST
Larue... they will make your wallet explode.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 5:38:02 AM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot don't care for DPMS.


Why?

Because that's what they heard?

I have never bought one, and there are none in my safe now, but I have gotten 2-3 through trade and put enough rounds through them to know they were just fine.

I am not afraid of them. Based on actually shooting them.


I've seen some seriously pathetic shit from DPMS.

Was at a class and the shooter next to me had the charging handle break off in his hand as he was charging the rifle. Nobody had a spare CH; it deadlined the rifle for the rest of the day.


Right, because all the big, beefy BCM upgraded charging handles flying off their website are fixing DPMS-only breakages.


Why is it that whenever somebody's shitty pet brand is described in a negative light, they always turn around and launch an attack on the quality brands like BCM, Colt, DD? Inferiority complex or something? Jesus dude BCM wasn't even part of the conversation until you brought them into it; I was just relating an incidence of DPMS failure that I saw with my own two eyes.

ETA: And to clarify, I'm not talking about the latch pulling itself out which is what the BCM charging handle was designed to prevent. I mean the shaft of the charging handle broke in half. Total WTF moment.


Let me try again.

BCM (a company I love and respect) is making a killing selling upgraded charging handles.  There wouldn't be such a demand for that kind of product if it wasn't a known issue of ALL ARs that the charging handle is a fundamentally weak spot.  BCM's charging handle upgrade doesn't address only the latch, but also the shaft and body of the charging handle, as well.

So, I wasn't bashing BCM at all.  Who would do that?  Their reputation is impeccable.
I was pointing out that your painting of DPMS as a rubbish brand with the broad stroke of "I saw a charging handle break" could apply to any number of brands that would experience a CH failure.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 5:40:12 AM EST
Quoted:
I was looking at DPMS as my last option. I'm torn between RRA, Stag and PSA. I know Spikes, Bravo Company and DD are good, but they seem harder to find available or are more expensive. How do ya'll feel about CMMG? Thanks for all the insight so far!


Go with the PSA over others you list. PSA is the equal to a Spikes and easier to find
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 5:56:40 AM EST
Quoted:
Blackthorne
Hesse
Vulcan
Olympic Arms
Rguns

those are my top 5 based on review activity I've seen here since becoming a member.


I will buy any Oly. If you have one for sale at a great price.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 6:03:30 AM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
Blackthorne
Hesse
Vulcan
Olympic Arms
Rguns

those are my top 5 based on review activity I've seen here since becoming a member.


I will buy any Oly. If you have one for sale at a great price.


Last time I checked and RGuns is basically a DPMS.  At least it was a few years ago.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 6:16:44 AM EST
You can always build a rifle using stripped lowers and uppers from a company such as DPMS or CMMG, and use gas kit, barrel and finer parts from higher end companies. Barnes Precision, a newer rifle manufacturer in NC makes some fine rifles. They will sell parts through their dealers, and the Montana barrels they use have been shown to shoot 1/2 MOA. You may want to take into consideration how a company builds their rifles. Companies like Bushmaster and DPMS, while still good rifles, buy parts from machine shops, like the shop Barnes operates. The smaller companies often build the entire rifle themselves.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 7:02:00 AM EST
Quoted:
Blackthorne
Hesse
Vulcan
Olympic Arms
Rguns

those are my top 5 based on review activity I've seen here since becoming a member.


thats about the list.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 7:10:25 AM EST
Companies I have bought rifles or uppers from and would not buy again:

DPMS
OLY
CMMG
Bushmaster
DSA

Companies i have bought rifles or uppers from and would buy again:
Colt
Armalite
LMT
Spikes Tactical

YMMV
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 8:49:23 AM EST
Avoid any company that uses any inferior process or materials for the sole purpose of saving money.  Skimping on QC (proper testing etc...) and using inferior materials may get you by in the commercial market where people use their rifles infrequently and have low round count and firing schedules, and those people they will gladly chime in and say that brand XYZ is just fine/just as good/good enough. In fact those companies may produce 1,000 fine rifles for every 1 dud, but the point of using proper testing and materials is to ensure as much as is possible that the weapon will not fail or have any premature parts breakage.  BCM, DD, Colt, LMT, Noveske, etc... have all failed at some point in time. I would say that based on equal usage they fail a whole lot less than "just as good" companies rifles fail. When you can spend very little more, or even the same money, and get something that has an overall lower chance of failure then why not go that route?  If I were to find myself in possession of an average commercial brand name rifle and could vette it thoroughly by firing at least a 1,000 rounds through it under a fairly taxing firing schedule I would have no problem trusting it.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 8:59:38 AM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot don't care for DPMS.


Why?

Because that's what they heard?

I have never bought one, and there are none in my safe now, but I have gotten 2-3 through trade and put enough rounds through them to know they were just fine.

I am not afraid of them. Based on actually shooting them.


I've seen some seriously pathetic shit from DPMS.

Was at a class and the shooter next to me had the charging handle break off in his hand as he was charging the rifle. Nobody had a spare CH; it deadlined the rifle for the rest of the day.


Right, because all the big, beefy BCM upgraded charging handles flying off their website are fixing DPMS-only breakages.


Why is it that whenever somebody's shitty pet brand is described in a negative light, they always turn around and launch an attack on the quality brands like BCM, Colt, DD? Inferiority complex or something? Jesus dude BCM wasn't even part of the conversation until you brought them into it; I was just relating an incidence of DPMS failure that I saw with my own two eyes.

ETA: And to clarify, I'm not talking about the latch pulling itself out which is what the BCM charging handle was designed to prevent. I mean the shaft of the charging handle broke in half. Total WTF moment.


Let me try again.

BCM (a company I love and respect) is making a killing selling upgraded charging handles.  There wouldn't be such a demand for that kind of product if it wasn't a known issue of ALL ARs that the charging handle is a fundamentally weak spot.  BCM's charging handle upgrade doesn't address only the latch, but also the shaft and body of the charging handle, as well.

So, I wasn't bashing BCM at all.  Who would do that?  Their reputation is impeccable.
I was pointing out that your painting of DPMS as a rubbish brand with the broad stroke of "I saw a charging handle break" could apply to any number of brands that would experience a CH failure.


Those charging handles aren't cheap!
www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Charging-Handle-s/123.htm

Link Posted: 11/22/2012 9:05:07 AM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Blackthorne
Hesse
Vulcan
Olympic Arms
Rguns

those are my top 5 based on review activity I've seen here since becoming a member.


I will buy any Oly. If you have one for sale at a great price.


Last time I checked and RGuns is basically a DPMS.  At least it was a few years ago.


I have an Rguns stripped lower on a gun i've put thousands of rounds through. Just my personal experience...but the forge mark is the same as one on a complete LMT upper I bought.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 9:09:48 AM EST
I have had good luck with CMMG with one exception...I got a LPK from them and many of the parts were out of spec.  With that said, RGUNS was the worst I have ever seen for out of spec lowers that wouldn't accept .mil or PMAGS and finish inside lower was terrible and rough.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 10:27:22 AM EST
Quoted:

Those charging handles aren't cheap!
www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Charging-Handle-s/123.htm



They're the same price as a standard charging handle and an aftermarket latch.  BCM charging handles are a good deal IMO.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 10:45:26 AM EST
.

Was at a class and the shooter next to me had the charging handle break off in his hand as he was charging the rifle. Nobody had a spare CH; it deadlined the rifle for the rest of the day.[/quote]

Right, because all the big, beefy BCM upgraded charging handles flying off their website are fixing DPMS-only breakages.
[/quote]

Charging handles are pretty fragile in themselves.  I don't care who makes them.  The cross section is pretty thin.  It doesn't surprise me that some ham-handed slob could break one during the heat of battle.  Keep a spare in your back pocket.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 11:56:54 AM EST
I have multiple Olympics and have nothing but good things to say about them. Frankly I bought My first Olympic before I heard any of the internet drivel. My experience with it lead me to get a second one and then a third.  I own AR's by other Manufactures S&W, Yankee Hill, Stag  and a few franken guns. My Olys work every bit as well
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 11:58:35 AM EST
Quoted:

Was at a class and the shooter next to me had the charging handle break off in his hand as he was charging the rifle. Nobody had a spare CH; it deadlined the rifle for the rest of the day.

Right, because all the big, beefy BCM upgraded charging handles flying off their website are fixing DPMS-only breakages.

Charging handles are pretty fragile in themselves.  I don't care who makes them.  The cross section is pretty thin.  It doesn't surprise me that some ham-handed slob could break one during the heat of battle.  Keep a spare in your back pocket.


I always keep spares of everything on my rifle in my pockets in case of failure rather than a sidearm.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 1:41:08 PM EST
All users are not equal, therefore opinions are not equal.  There are are a ton of AR owners who only shoot their AR off of a bench, 100 rounds a year and proudly post that their ABC brand carbine is 100% reliable and therefore that brand is excellent.  Some other douchebag goes out with a 6920 and they get pissed off because it has a scratch on it and suddenly all Colts suck.  What would be more beneficial is to spell out companies that have questionable or shitty business practices.  



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 2:35:22 PM EST
Quoted:
All users are not equal, therefore opinions are not equal.  There are are a ton of AR owners who only shoot their AR off of a bench, 100 rounds a year and proudly post that their ABC brand carbine is 100% reliable and therefore that brand is excellent.  Some other douchebag goes out with a 6920 and they get pissed off because it has a scratch on it and suddenly all Colts suck.  What would be more beneficial is to spell out companies that have questionable or shitty business practices.  



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Have to agree with this. I haven't been an owner of any of the brands that are frequently proclaimed as unworthy rifles. A couple of them have had such a huge amount of negative feedback even in light use, by so many, that it's safe to say "steer clear" even without owning one.

Then there are the rifles that get semi frequent bad feedback from people that don't currently or never owned them but actual current or past owners feedback varies from very happy to unsatisfied. Some rifles might just need a little upgrading and work fine.

Then there are rifles that usually are ready to roll out of the box and will make the weekend shooter and carbine class participants equally happy. Anyway, best course of action isn't to simply base your decision solely from results of one thread but utilize the site for the plethora of info available. Make an effort at deciding what is reliable facts and spend your money towards a researched purchase. Decide what you are using your rifle for. I know what has worked well for me but some of that might conflict with others experience. Then again out of all the ARs I own now only a couple were bought as complete factory rifles.

In the end, like rgaper said, the company making the rifle should play a large role in the final decision. Might save you future headaches regardless of how you use your rifle.

Link Posted: 11/22/2012 3:02:25 PM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was looking at DPMS as my last option. I'm torn between RRA, Stag and PSA. I know Spikes, Bravo Company and DD are good, but they seem harder to find available or are more expensive. How do ya'll feel about CMMG? Thanks for all the insight so far!


Go with the PSA over others you list. PSA is the equal to a Spikes and easier to find


Not too sure about PSA. Frequent problems lately from what I see. And like others have said, customer service is almost non-existent.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 3:24:22 PM EST



Quoted:


.



Was at a class and the shooter next to me had the charging handle break off in his hand as he was charging the rifle. Nobody had a spare CH; it deadlined the rifle for the rest of the day.




Right, because all the big, beefy BCM upgraded charging handles flying off their website are fixing DPMS-only breakages.

[/quote]



Charging handles are pretty fragile in themselves.  I don't care who makes them.  The cross section is pretty thin.  It doesn't surprise me that some ham-handed slob could break one during the heat of battle.  Keep a spare in your back pocket.

[/quote]this, i have broken them before. cross section is basically nothing.





 
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 4:04:41 PM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Blackthorne
Hesse
Vulcan
Olympic Arms
Rguns

those are my top 5 based on review activity I've seen here since becoming a member.


I will buy any Oly. If you have one for sale at a great price.


Last time I checked and RGuns is basically a DPMS.  At least it was a few years ago.


I have an Rguns stripped lower on a gun i've put thousands of rounds through. Just my personal experience...but the forge mark is the same as one on a complete LMT upper I bought.


You obviously know nothing about what a forge mark is. A forge mark indicates who made the forging, not who did the final machining.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 4:32:26 PM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was looking at DPMS as my last option. I'm torn between RRA, Stag and PSA. I know Spikes, Bravo Company and DD are good, but they seem harder to find available or are more expensive. How do ya'll feel about CMMG? Thanks for all the insight so far!


Go with the PSA over others you list. PSA is the equal to a Spikes and easier to find


Not too sure about PSA. Frequent problems lately from what I see. And like others have said, customer service is almost non-existent.


While this does seem to be the general concensus if you check the reviews and their Facebook page, I have had nothing but good dealings with the CS at PSA. I ordered two magazines for my Bodygaurd 380 from them and had them in three days. I also had a question about their Troy PSA rifle a few weeks ago and my email was answered in less than two hours.

Another YMMV scenario to say the least.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 4:39:43 PM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
Blackthorne
Hesse
Vulcan
Olympic Arms
Rguns

those are my top 5 based on review activity I've seen here since becoming a member.


I will buy any Oly. If you have one for sale at a great price.


i wouldn't mention this, but i just  saw one for sale.
stay way away from Roggio Arms, they were rushed to market during Obamania 1 and the odds are way against you having a good one.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 5:27:10 PM EST
these threads make me goas usual they all suck so close your eyes and pick one
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 6:32:53 PM EST
Quoted:
All users are not equal, therefore opinions are not equal.  There are are a ton of AR owners who only shoot their AR off of a bench, 100 rounds a year and proudly post that their ABC brand carbine is 100% reliable and therefore that brand is excellent.  Some other douchebag goes out with a 6920 and they get pissed off because it has a scratch on it and suddenly all Colts suck.  What would be more beneficial is to spell out companies that have questionable or shitty business practices.  



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Very good point. I know someone that hasn't shot 200 rounds from his middle of the road rifle. He has owned it ten years. That isn't an exaggeration on the time or round count. Yet he swears that the rifle is as good or better than any rifle on the market. To me he has no clue how good the rifle is. I seldom trust a rifle that hasn't fired at least 1k. I shoot more rounds each range trip than he does in a decade.

Link Posted: 11/22/2012 6:33:41 PM EST
Colt
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