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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 12/29/2003 9:04:38 AM EST
I'm in the process of (hopefully) returning my Tripower to Trijicon for a refund. I am considering buying either a TA44-2 or TA45-2, in conjunction with a TA60 mount, to put on my Colt M4gery "home defense" carbine in place of the TX30.

Does the compact ACOG have washout issues with bright lights/backgrounds similar to what the Reflex II series suffers from? Is the red reticle better than the amber reticle in this regard?

I noticed that in poor/dim ambient light conditions, the red chevron of the Tripower is MUCH dimmer than my Reflex II RX06' amber triangle. I assume this carries over to the compact ACOG line?

I should probably say to hell with it, buy an Aimpoint, and spend the extra cash on more ammo I do like my tritium/always on, however...Too bad the Tripower isn't ready for prime time.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:08:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 11:11:03 AM EST by MaverickMkii]
All ACOGs have absolutely no washout issues. You will just see your reticule turn black, and still be able to use it effectively.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:58:31 AM EST
[b]YES THERE ARE WASHOUT ISSUES![/b]

I discovered this during a night time tactical carbine class.

The Optic: TA50-2 (3x, Triangular Amber reticule)
The Light: Surfire G2 w/120 Lumen P61 bulb

During the course of the night I saw the amber triangle, the black triangle, and several 'washouts'.

Washouts seem to occure when you are close to the target and its fairly light in color.  With all the backsplash from the light you illumite the reticule just enough so it looks 'greyish' and is easily lost.

I've duplicated this time and again while practicing in my home.  Silver, white, tan, and light brown (cardboard boxes) all show this effect.  The lighter the reflective surface the further out it can occure.  I can get washout at 25' from the silver side of the insullation on my basement walls.  To get washout from Caine targets I need to be much closer.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 12:32:03 PM EST
Right on, Forest!

There will be washout with [i]any[/i] sight. Let's face it: no contrast, no reticle. Black on black = no shot. Illuminated reticle not brighter than target = no shot.

If you shoot at night in dynamic, variable lighting conditions you [i]will[/i] be bit by this. It doesn't matter if it's a zillion dollar U.S. Optic, and half-zillion dollar ACOG, $300 Aimpoint/Eotech or $50 Hakko.

And if you think that's bad, try at night in the rain or fog. Or freezing fog.[:\]

As a group we probably all need to get more trigger time at night.

But this all begs the question: why aren't we getting automatic brightness control like I think they used to have on the old Elbit Falcon?
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:50:12 PM EST
Note to self (and others on this forum) I think I should redo my tests with two varibles:

1) target is a white shirt (they are not as glossy).

2) Light using a 65 Luman bulb instead (see if too much light is the problem).
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 3:00:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 3:21:37 PM EST
Troy,
My standard bulb is the 120 Lumen P61 - no turbo head for me.  Its a pretty good compromise between 'outdoor' light and indoor light (about the max limit indoors).  Outside I can see to the begining of the cul-de-sac with 120 Lumens and ID people.

Ok after feading the cats (and before eating myself) I ran the same experiment using the following:
TACM 3
Surefire 6P (P60 bulb)
Surefire 650-2 (P61 bulb)

Target was a white knit 'golfers' shirt in the 10'-15' range near objects/walls that had caused my TA50-2 to washout.

I tried both with the room completely dark and with an overhead light (60w) on (target was in 'dark' half of the room - shooter in the light a few feet in front of the light).

A few times I had problems with washout on the light shirt when the overhead was on and I used the 650, I had a couple of instances of 'losing' the reticle when bringing up the sight on target using a 6P (the reticule was 'grey' and it was easy to miss unless you stared really hard at it).  In all these cases I would lose the reticule when I transitioned to the silver backed insulation or white glossy walls.  With the TACM 3 I could always make out the reticule (it was a darker gray).

In the complete dark the reticule always came up black or dark gray on the shirt - again I'd lose it against more reflective backgrounds (including some shiny yellow shelves that were nearby).  Not so much agains the cardboard boxes though (where I would lose it with some overhead lighting).

I'm begining to think I'll swap the P61 for a P60 (and keep the P61 for outdoor classes).

BTW I am planning on getting a blue filter for my 'carry' 6P.  I will try it out with the P61 bulb and see how well it works.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 4:38:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:13:15 PM EST
Wow. this is some good info. I learn new everyday here.

I used 3x Compact ACOG and Sure-Fire G2 with P60 to test it... (only 65 lumens) it seems like going 100+ lumens make a whole new world of difference!
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:13:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 6:14:40 PM EST by SlimHazy]
Forest, Troy, et al,

About using a blue filter on your light.  I thought it was stupid and would reduce output at first, but it really helps the contrast with a red reticle.  I tested it out with my TA31 and EOTech and found it helpful.  A lot of white LEDs have a bluish tint anyway, and as bright as SureFires are it didn't seem to have much of a negative impact on the usable light, especially indoors at short range.  

I don't have a blue filter on my light right now (did the tests with BVMJetHead's M900) otherwise I'd try to duplicate Forest's test.  
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:29:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 6:33:52 PM EST by 8200rpm]
I know that BAC is for keeping both eyes open.  But, is there an optic/reticle that will work when both my eyes are closed in absolute darkness?

It would be a perfect match for my ideal rifle that fires without needing ammo.

Just kidding.  I couldn't resist.

Is [b]washout AND ultimately losing point of aim[/b] a disadvantage of using optics that do not/cannot co-witness the front sight?
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:47:32 PM EST
This is why I like my TA31 for field use, but wouldnt trade my Aimpoint for anything when it comes to CQB.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:59:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
This is why I like my TA31 for field use, but wouldnt trade my Aimpoint for anything when it comes to CQB.
View Quote

Lump-
You've never had your Aimpoint wash out?  I'd think bright light indoors would make any illuminated sight wash out.  
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 7:04:04 PM EST
I combat that one of two ways.

When I know Im going to be inside, I crank it up two more notches, and it works fine, even with my 9v Surefire.  Yes, without the light, it does create a slight red ring around the entire reticle, but that disappears when the light is activated.

The other option I use sometimes is to just quickly close the front lense cap and use it as an
OEG.  The same holds true for the blazing sun we have here.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 7:10:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
The other option I use sometimes is to just quickly close the front lense cap and use it as an OEG.  The same holds true for the blazing sun we have here.
View Quote


A few weeks ago I fitted a flip-up scope cover to the front of my TA31 to do the OEG thing.  Works ok, especially since the time to use that is when there's lots of ambient light for the fiber optic.  Now I need to get an Aimpoint for that M1A I need to get...
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 7:30:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By SlimHazy:
A few weeks ago I fitted a flip-up scope cover to the front of my TA31 to do the OEG thing.
View Quote


Do tell how [:D]

oh and...

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/pd0c2d7364ff12164a77058fe33fbfa2c/fa524001.jpg.orig.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:47:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
This is why I like my TA31 for field use, but wouldnt trade my Aimpoint for anything when it comes to CQB.
View Quote


Yep and why my Carbine (primary rifle) sports the EO Tech and my 20"er has the Compact ACOG.

BTW when we ran our night simulator for the course. Some of us were illuminating close objects then adjusting our reticules bright enough before staring the test.  Worked great when the light came on - but when it was off my face was bathed in a soft red light.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 5:50:44 AM EST
Thanks for the replies guys. Lots of good info here.

I agree we need more trigger time at night as a group. I'm actually getting a few of my friends together for some low-light shooting this Saturday night, with light rain in the forecast![:D]

I guess the perfect night sight/optic doesn't exist. During out PFDC Carbine course night shoot, held under a steady rain, my one friend who was using an Aimpoint has his lens get wet, resulting in "multiple" dots. It was almost unuseable. I actually had better performance (luck?) with my Reflex II.

Leaning towards the compact ACOG...RED or AMBER? [:D]
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 6:14:50 AM EST
Light rain at night--excellleeent. You should have some fun. Be prepared to dump the optics and go to the irons! If you have the capability, try to set up some lights behind your targets. The backlighting will really be challenging if you have any moisture at all on your optics. It makes every dot gleam.

Lately I've been trying to leave the BUIS up all the time with my Eotech. In bright conditions it's easy to sight through the aperture but still essentially use the dot. The advantage here is if I've got dot washout I can immediately use the irons. If it's too dim for the irons I'm trying to practice just slightly shifting my cheek weld to look at the dot just over the aperture. The best of both worlds, unless you turn the dot up too much, so err on the side of too dim.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 6:19:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Do tell how [:D]
oh and...
View Quote

I can't see what you've got there Lump, Imagestation doesn't like me.  The OD of a Butler Creek #2 flip-up scope cover fits the ID of the TA31 objective.  It's just in there with friction.  You've got to put the hinge at the 4:30 or 7:30 position.  Somewhere I've got a pic...
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 6:47:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By aa777888-2:
If you have the capability, try to set up some lights behind your targets. The backlighting will really be challenging if you have any moisture at all on your optics. It makes every dot gleam..
View Quote


Good idea; will have to think about that...
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:03:46 AM EST
I had the 3x amber crosshair and never had any washout issues.  I tried to get it to washout - aiming right into a bright light, aiming at a white wall, using my handguard mounted light, desert use - but never could.

Now the Reflex II on the other hand ...
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:50:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 12:59:36 PM EST by SlimHazy]
ACOG OEG
[img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/083891.jpg[/img][img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/083893.jpg[/img]
You need to use an solid front scope cap or put some tactical black electical tape over the inside of the lens.  With the cap closed you see the red donut against black, sorry about that crappy pic.  
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 1:02:40 PM EST
Cool.  I just happen to have one of those sitting in a parts box (solid black).

I'll give it a shot tonight and see how it looks.

thanks!
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 2:17:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By SlimHazy:
ACOG OEG
[url]http://www.hunt101.com/img/083891.jpg[/url][url]http://www.hunt101.com/img/083893.jpg[/url]
You need to use an solid front scope cap or put some tactical black electical tape over the inside of the lens.  With the cap closed you see the red donut against black, sorry about that crappy pic.  
View Quote


Very Clever...
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:13:20 PM EST
I'll be DAMNED. It works.  Its fantastic inside with a flashlight.

Trijicon on someone needs to make a purpose built CQB cover [:D]
Link Posted: 1/4/2004 3:57:21 AM EST
Lumpy - that picture of the M14 with the Aimpoint, do the picatinney rails interfere with the iron sights when you remove the unit?  I have an M14 I'd like to equip in a similar fashion.  Are these commercially available, if so where and how much?  I have never seen these advertised.

Back to the compact ACOG.  I have tried red (TA31) and amber reticles (TA45 & TA47).  I prefer the red color as that seems to contrast on more surfaces than the amber in any given light that I have played with them.  The amber seems to work best when the tritium is "fresh" and the reticle is large such as a triangle.  The amber dot I don't find as useful.  My experience is however limited to the range and my backyard.
Link Posted: 1/4/2004 4:26:18 AM EST
You can see the irons through a channel in the top rail.

KAC makes the unit, and Wes at MSTN has them.  However, they are a tad pricey, but its the usual KAC HIGH quality.
Link Posted: 1/4/2004 5:07:01 AM EST
MSTN has all the cool toys.  I'll drop them a line.

On another note, I do not like using any magnified ACOG on an AR if the scope is co-witnessed with the front iron sights.  All my ACOGs are either on rifles with folding front sights or on the carry handle where the view clears the front sight just enough where it is not annoying.  For some reason, the Aimpoints and Eotech do not bother me with the front sight in full view.

I tried a TA45 with the TA60 mount on a flat top carbine with fixed front sight and it was too weird for me.  So I moved the TA45 on to a plain 20" A2 and reinstalled the Aimpoint on the carbine.
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