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Posted: 7/21/2008 2:33:18 PM EST
I'm thinking I just have really crappy glass on my SP1, but at 100 yards, I shoot 2.75 groups or bigger!! WTF? I don't know if the old Colt SP1's are super accurate or not, but it seems every time I go to the range I am "sighting my scope in". I don't feel it should be like this. I've even tried cleaning after every 3 shots and letting the barrel cool down up to 5 mins PER SINGLE SHOT and still, I never know where its gonna hit...
So I have the carry handle obviously and I have a tri-rail mounted to it. I made sure that the screw holding the rail was tight...real tight. I put some blue loctite on the screw and used a pair of pliers to torque it down. So the rail isn't the issue, I'll be surprised if I can get it off in the future. The scope mounts are tight too. I breathe and SLOWLY pull the trigger. Sometimes I take so long pulling it, I get bored waiting for it to break. I'm using sandbags. With my Ruger bolt action .223 with a 3-9x40 Leupold scope I shoot 1 inch groups or better, so I don't think its me. I've even tried 40 gr ammo since I was told the SP1 has a 1:12 twist and I might need lighter ammo to tighten up the groups. It's still all over the place.

I don't know any other way to post a link than to do this, so here is the scope I have:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/20074-34.html

Anyone ever heard of BSA optics? 4-16x40 for less than 100 bucks is cheap. Too cheap. Even says on the box its "shockproof", but I think its loose and isn't holding a zero. The light transmission is lacking (not near as clear as my Leupold, but not expecting it to be for 100 bucks) and I'm not really happy with it, but I've had it too long to take it back. Clearly I sprung for it cause it was so dang cheap for the amount of magnification you get. I WOULD be happy with it if it would hold a zero. And one more thing: Today, I was sitting next to a guy shooting a .308. Every time his gun went off, the shockwave or blast would cause my reticle in my scope to flex or bounce (the benches are close, about 2 feet apart). This happened over and over and I thought I was just flinching or something, but I actually started timing his shots and waiting for it. It was certainly not my eyes playing tricks on me. So I feel thats a strong indicator the scope is the issue. I'm looking at a Nikon 4-12x40 for 299.00 at Cabela's to replace this thing. Should I do it or am I just expecting too much out of my old Colt SP1? Its in 96% condition and it doesn't look like my father shot it very much at all before he passed away. I plan to contact BSA to see what they say, but even if they send it back "fixed", I'll probably just put it on my Marlin 60 .22 if I can make it fit...
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 2:37:47 PM EST
Sounds about right.
These rifles are not tack drivers, though they are very accurate.
Better sights, better trigger, and better ammo would net you the groups you seek, but then you wouldn't have a retro rifle.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 2:46:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Sounds about right.
These rifles are not tack drivers, though they are very accurate.
Better sights, better trigger, and better ammo would net you the groups you seek, but then you wouldn't have a retro rifle.How accurate should I expect it to be with good ammo and the stock trigger set up? So you don't think the scope is the issue, even with the reticle bouncing the way it did when the .308 was going off next to me? I find that very odd. My groups today were about 3.5 inches!! Thats normal for an SP1 in good condition? Or the optics ARE partly to blame??
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 2:51:16 PM EST
In my opinion SP1 rifles are a small step up from a decent Mini 14 for accuracy. I have never had one that would shoot 1" groups. But then they were not meant to do that either.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 3:02:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By sirgilbert357:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Sounds about right.
These rifles are not tack drivers, though they are very accurate.
Better sights, better trigger, and better ammo would net you the groups you seek, but then you wouldn't have a retro rifle.


How accurate should I expect it to be with good ammo and the stock trigger set up? So you don't think the scope is the issue, even with the reticle bouncing the way it did when the .308 was going off next to me? I find that very odd. My groups today were about 3.5 inches!! Thats normal for an SP1 in good condition? Or the optics ARE partly to blame??


3.5 inches with A1 sights, standard trigger, and average ammo is about average.
Remember - these are military rifles, pinpoint accuracy is not needed.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 3:05:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By P08
In my opinion SP1 rifles are a small step up from a decent Mini 14 for accuracy. I have never had one that would shoot 1" groups. But then they were not meant to do that either.


Well, yeah, I figured 1" groups would be expecting a bit much, but dang, I thought 2" groups would be easy all day long with the right ammo. I dunno...guess I just found an excuse to get another AR! I don't want to modify the SP1...would rather keep it original...I still think that scope is loose though...
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 3:13:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By sirgilbert357:

Originally Posted By P08
In my opinion SP1 rifles are a small step up from a decent Mini 14 for accuracy. I have never had one that would shoot 1" groups. But then they were not meant to do that either.


Well, yeah, I figured 1" groups would be expecting a bit much, but dang, I thought 2" groups would be easy all day long with the right ammo. I dunno...guess I just found an excuse to get another AR! I don't want to modify the SP1...would rather keep it original...I still think that scope is loose though...

It should be able to do it...

this one can, not a SP1 but a A1ish
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 3:42:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By platypusREX:
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Originally Posted By sirgilbert357:
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Originally Posted By P08
In my opinion SP1 rifles are a small step up from a decent Mini 14 for accuracy. I have never had one that would shoot 1" groups. But then they were not meant to do that either.


Well, yeah, I figured 1" groups would be expecting a bit much, but dang, I thought 2" groups would be easy all day long with the right ammo. I dunno...guess I just found an excuse to get another AR! I don't want to modify the SP1...would rather keep it original...I still think that scope is loose though...hould
this one can, not a SP1 but a A1ish
i25.tinypic.com/2ldypao.jpg



That Cobra on the side is familiar...what brand is that?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 3:54:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By sirgilbert357:

Originally Posted By platypusREX:

Originally Posted By sirgilbert357:

Originally Posted By P08
In my opinion SP1 rifles are a small step up from a decent Mini 14 for accuracy. I have never had one that would shoot 1" groups. But then they were not meant to do that either.


Well, yeah, I figured 1" groups would be expecting a bit much, but dang, I thought 2" groups would be easy all day long with the right ammo. I dunno...guess I just found an excuse to get another AR! I don't want to modify the SP1...would rather keep it original...I still think that scope is loose though...

It should be able to do it...

this one can, not a SP1 but a A1ish
i25.tinypic.com/2ldypao.jpg



That Cobra on the side is familiar...what brand is that?

Bushmaster
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 4:25:37 PM EST
What kind of ammo?


I suspect some careful handloads with 52gr. SIERRA MATCH KINGS would help a lot.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 5:09:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2008 1:36:48 AM EST by GlockSlap]
*Edit per mods*

I would think with any ammo it should be a 2 MOA minimum...

Other than that, maybe the barrel is shot out?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 5:43:01 PM EST
That is not terrible accuracy for an SP1. The carry handle scope bases are just not repeatable. Shim that scope base up with tape so that it is a fairly tight fit and put a decent scope on it. That will solve that part of the equation. SP1's traditionally like 55 gn Nosler Ballistic Tips, 52 or 53 gn Sierra Matchkings and Win 748 powder.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 6:03:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By airgun1:
That is not terrible accuracy for an SP1. The carry handle scope bases are just not repeatable. Shim that scope base up with tape so that it is a fairly tight fit and put a decent scope on it. That will solve that part of the equation. SP1's traditionally like 55 gn Nosler Ballistic Tips, 52 or 53 gn Sierra Matchkings and Win 748 powder.


I never had great luck with about three different types of carry handle scope rails. And the Sierra 52 Matchking should shoot sub-moa from a 1/12 barrel, assuming the throat is not heavily eroded. If that barrel is in really nice shape, installing it on a flat top upper would give you a better idea of it's accuracy potential. The factory loaded Fed AE 50 jhp and Win white box 45 jhp both shoot superbly in decent barrels.

Paladin

ps, I've heard of guys who basically "bed" the rail on a carry handle with epoxy, but I never tried it personally.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 6:22:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Derek45:
What kind of ammo?


I suspect some careful handloads with 52gr. SIERRA MATCH KINGS would help a lot.


I was shooting Hornady 40 gr soft points today. I have shot everything through it though, gun show reloads, Wolf steel cased, Wolf Gold, PMC, Remington, Winchester Elites (or Supremes, not sure) etc...a lot of 55 gr, but I've shot various weights and it doesn't seem to matter. I dunno...I'm just disappointed, I guess. I wanted it to shoot 2" groups or better so I could use it for some coyote hunting, but I have a .223 bolt action I can use instead I guess.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 8:26:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2008 6:15:30 AM EST by coctailer]
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Originally Posted By GlockSlap:


I would think with any ammo it should be a 2 MOA minimum...


Other than that, maybe the barrel is shot out?



I highly doubt its shot out. My father didn't use it much before he passed away. Uh, I could post pics, but I dont know how...its in very good condition.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 8:29:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2008 10:00:32 AM EST by coctailer]
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Originally Posted By GlockSlap:


I would think with any ammo it should be a 2 MOA minimum...



Other than that, maybe the barrel is shot out?



LOL, that Bushmaster above isn't mine...and if I do figure out how to post pics, its not for sale...It has sentimental value.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 8:30:28 PM EST
Heh, I just figured it out, but I dont have a photobucket or anything...
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 8:23:43 AM EST
40 grain bullets and a 1/12 barrel is not exactly a hi power combo. Made for full auto fire with some control. 55 grain bullets should help a little.
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 8:34:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By sirgilbert357:
Heh, I just figured it out, but I dont have a photobucket or anything...

photobucket is free, just sign up
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 11:26:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By defiant1:
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Originally Posted By sirgilbert357:
Heh, I just figured it out, but I dont have a photobucket or anything...

photobucket is free, just sign up


Gonna do it tonite and post pics asap...Then maybe you guys can tell me if the barrel is "shot out" or not...
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 1:31:53 PM EST
How is the fit between upper and lower? If it is sloppy I wouldn,t think it capable of tight groups despite some who say it doesn't matter...How could it not matter? Some I have handled are nice and tight and others are real sloppy. I'd start there first.
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 1:34:38 PM EST
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Originally Posted By CaptWillard:
How is the fit between upper and lower? If it is sloppy I wouldn,t think it capable of tight groups despite some who say it doesn't matter...How could it not matter? Some I have handled are nice and tight and others are real sloppy. I'd start there first.Well, take a look at the second pic, but as far as how it feels, its not super tight, but not loose either. how would I tighten it up if I wanted to try that?
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 1:49:29 PM EST
I mean tight in every plane not just vertical. If the upper and lower can move independant of the each other even slightly and you have one hand only on each in the firing position plus the force of the recoil impulse..they are going to move and the sight picture will change radically (faster of course than one could follow with the naked eye) and the shot will be off. The slightest difference in angle will magnify greatly with range and so called small slop leads to big errors downrange. The small rubber thingy they sell will tighten up things a bit or thin washers may work depending upon the gap.
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 2:09:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By CaptWillard:
I mean tight in every plane not just vertical. If the upper and lower can move independant of the each other even slightly and you have one hand only on each in the firing position plus the force of the recoil impulse..they are going to move and the sight picture will change radically (faster of course than one could follow with the naked eye) and the shot will be off. The slightest difference in angle will magnify greatly with range and so called small slop leads to big errors downrange. The small rubber thingy they sell will tighten up things a bit or thin washers may work depending upon the gap.



Sorry , but you're stuffed plumb full of blueberry muffins.

The fit between upper and lower does NOT affect where the bullet goes after you pull
the trigger.

The iron sights or a securely mounted scope on an AR do not move relative to the bore. during the firing cycle.

And in the few milliseconds between the firing pin hitting the primer and the bullet
leaving the barrel , you won't have time to move anything either.

Link Posted: 7/22/2008 2:21:03 PM EST
So the competition teams, snipers etc. that glass bed rifle barrels to eliminate it are full of blueberrys too? There bullets are slower or something? Whatever you say.....
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 2:22:36 PM EST
I was refering to the upper vs. lower movement..not the relationship between the scope and upper.
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 2:37:09 PM EST
Unless your head is the size of a large pumpkin , you need one of these...

Cheekpiece
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 3:34:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2008 3:37:42 PM EST by sirgilbert357]
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Originally Posted By CaptWillard:
So the competition teams, snipers etc. that glass bed rifle barrels to eliminate it are full of blueberrys too? There bullets are slower or something? Whatever you say.....


I dont think I have ever heard of glass bedding an AR. I know you do that to bolt actions, but thats entirely different. Now, free floating would be something you could do to an AR...is that what youre thinking of?

And I agree with the rebuttal, its been proven the bullet leaves the barrel before recoil can take effect on aim. At well over 2500 FPS, how fast do you think it actually takes the bullet to move 20 inches? Well, less than 1/2500 of a second basically...
So anyway...any abnormal wear on the parts shown in the pics? Should I just go back to iron sights and shoot this thing for 50 yds and thats it or what? Anyone??
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 4:23:21 PM EST
" its been proven the bullet leaves the barrel before recoil can take effect on aim. At well over 2500 FPS, how fast do you think it actually takes the bullet to move 20 inches? Well, less than 1/2500 of a second basically..."
And as I understand it ..for every reaction there is an equal and oposite reaction..
Granted perhaps the bullet is light enough to get out of the barrel before there is any rearward movement (or lateral or vertical movement) of the more massive (hence slower to recoil at the same rate as the bullet leaving the barrel) sloppy upper that rattles in relation to a clamped unmovable lower but it would seem all things being equal two rifles with their lowers clamped solid onto the bench, one tight to eliminate movement between the upper and lower and the previously mentioned loose, rattling one ...surely there is an accuracy penalty for the looser one and it would be hard pressed to match the other in group size.
I'm trying to learn here not start a name calling game so please refer me to the test that proved no difference ..always willing to admit I'm wrong if thats the case.and will thank you for the clarification even.
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 4:57:33 PM EST
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Originally Posted By CaptWillard:
" its been proven the bullet leaves the barrel before recoil can take effect on aim. At well over 2500 FPS, how fast do you think it actually takes the bullet to move 20 inches? Well, less than 1/2500 of a second basically..."
And as I understand it ..for every reaction there is an equal and oposite reaction..
Granted perhaps the bullet is light enough to get out of the barrel before there is any rearward movement (or lateral or vertical movement) of the more massive (hence slower to recoil at the same rate as the bullet leaving the barrel) sloppy upper that rattles in relation to a clamped unmovable lower but it would seem all things being equal two rifles with their lowers clamped solid onto the bench, one tight to eliminate movement between the upper and lower and the previously mentioned loose, rattling one ...surely there is an accuracy penalty for the looser one and it would be hard pressed to match the other in group size.
I'm trying to learn here not start a name calling game so please refer me to the test that proved no difference ..always willing to admit I'm wrong if thats the case.and will thank you for the clarification even. hed"Can anyone else chime in on this. I have discussed this topic quite a bit before elsewhere and have zero doubt in my position. Just wondering who else agrees?
Link Posted: 7/29/2008 8:47:59 PM EST
NODAC spud seems to agree with my position. Found this quote from their site regarding their A2 style lowers..." Some lowers in this first batch of 50 A2's are turning out to be a very tight fit to the uppers I have checked them on. Perfect for a DCM, Target, or Varmint rifle."
If forced to shoot an apple off one of your kid's head at 100 yards with one of the afore mentioned bolted down rifles ...which rifle would you choose/trust to do that ..the loose one or the tight one?
For the record ..I was just stating that if ultimate accuracy is the goal here then I feel one must have a tightly fitted rifle to realize the true potential of the platform before addresing other potential problem areas such as the fit/tightness of the scope on the upper as well as floating handguards etc. . All extraneous movement to me is counterproductive to ultimate accuracy. I am no physics expert. I wasn't trying to hijack your thread or bring it off topic.
Link Posted: 7/30/2008 6:52:35 AM EST
Here is some anecdotal information that supports the premise of a properly set up upper being the "ONLY" requirement for accuracy.

Back in 2003 I had two AR's in the house. A "post ban" Bushmaster 20 inch rifle:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/FotoTomas/TheoldBushmaster.jpg

And a "pre-ban" SGW/ Olympic Arms Carbine.:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/FotoTomas/OlyXM177lookalike.jpg

The Bushmaster was a great rifle and very tight. It shot at a hair under 2MOA at 100 yards. The OLYARMS was NOT a tight carbine and NOT a accurate shooter. It was about 4 to 5 MOA at 100 yards.

In a fit of boredom I shot the Bushmaster upper off of the OLYARMS lower off the bench at 100 yards. To be generous the fit between the upper and lower was "loose as a goose". The rifle however still shot under 2MOA with the A2 sights.

I do not doubt that a superior rifleman would be able to shoot a finely fitted rifle better than a rattle trap BUT that is more a level of superior skill of the shooter as opposed to the intrinsic accuracy of the barreled upper.

Logic and testing will verify that a accurate upper is accurate in spite of the fit between the upper and lower though we all agree a proper tight fit is preferred for aesthetic (fit & feel) reasons.

I will admit the old adage of "Only accurate rifles are interesting" has some sway with me but the "fun factor" of run and gun during a practical rifle match holds great sway as well.

If I were the owner of that SP1 I would take the glass off and do a battle sight ZERO at 25 meters using the irons. The Army requirements when I did that type of firing with my Colt AR15 marked M16A1 during training was 1" group at 1.5 inches low of the aiming point at 25 meters. This would allow for a center mass hold and dead on hit out to 250 meters with minimal drop out to 400 or 500 meters allowing for accurate hits. It also would be a 4 MOA calibration. If I recall correctly (over 30 years ago! h
Sounds like that SP1 is right in the ball park.
Link Posted: 7/30/2008 8:05:20 AM EST
Very interesting anectdote..I guess the bullet is able to leave the barrel before any movement occurs to throw the aim off. Thanks for the experiment.
Link Posted: 7/30/2008 11:01:03 AM EST
John Feamster wrote about and tested all these factors in his book(I'm blanking on the title). He also did a piece in "Precision Shooting" magazine about wringing out the ultimate accuracy from an A1. He is a member of ARF.com but I havn't seen him post in quite a few years.
Link Posted: 7/30/2008 11:23:52 AM EST
The fit between upper and lower has zero affect on accuracy. The AMU did a study/test and determined no accuracy increase was gained with a nice snug fit. They did specify that there was a psychological factor of having a nice tight gun and a wobbler.

I stand by my earlier recommendation to coat that scope mount with tape, enough that it compresses when you tighten the nut. I guarantee that is a weak link. Also it is very hard to shoot a carry handle scope mounted gun. Each differnt head/cheek placement will yield a different point of impact.

As I said load up some 52 gn Sierra HPBT MatchKings and use Winchester 748 powder. That usually works pretty darn good at 100 yards. If a barrel has some throat wear the 53 gn HP Matchking usually works better.
Link Posted: 7/30/2008 12:47:49 PM EST
SirGilbert
I also have a Colt SP1 (1979 vintage), as well as a 6601 HBAR (1992 vintage), and a Stag M4-gery. I did some rest shooting at 50 yards using UMC 55 gr FMJ ammo. With the SP1 (open sights) I got groups of 3/8-1/2".
The Stag, same load, was 1-1/2". withthe open sights and about 5/8" with a BSA Red Dot sight.
The 6601 can stay around 2" with the 'made in china' cheap Colt copy scope, but the groups shift.
All groups were shot with my hand under the foreend over a rolled-up towel from a bench.
As some have stated, the cheap optics, and the less than desireable mounting on the carry handle are most likely a large part of the problem.
My favaorite to shoot? The open sight SP1!!!!
Link Posted: 7/30/2008 4:40:04 PM EST
Just save yourself the trouble and leave the scope on the bolt guns. Enjoy the SP1 for what it is and was designed for - iron sights.
Link Posted: 7/30/2008 5:40:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2008 5:41:30 PM EST by JJREA]
If you're putting pressure on the barrel while it's on the bags, that can be part of the problem. It's not free floated. I get a shift in POI with my 20" A2 if I do that. One time I was shooting off of a ammo can and putting alot of pressure on it, and I had shots going vertical. It changed my POI very much at 50 yards.


I don't care what people say, stock AR's that shoot MOA or even hit 2 are hard to find. I think they can do it, but you have to find the ammo it likes #1, which they can be REAL picky about what they like. Although the 52's are usually a safe bet. If your barrel is not free floated, it can affect things when shooting for accuracy. And a NATO chamber is not necessarily conducive to target accuracy. A thin barrel may also be a little tougher to shoot well with due to the heat. The last point I think is the most unimportant factor out of all of what I listed, as long as your not zinging them on right after the other.

My wylde chambered, free floated, Heavy barreled, SS barreled recce shoots consistently better than any stock AR I have. With more ammo and with more ease. Otherwise, what's the point of doing all that than? If your stock AR shoots 1-2 MOA consistently, more power to you. I'm not that lucky or blessed or skilled. Now my recce, yeah, no problem. But a rack grade AR, I have a hard time swallowing the ultra accuracy kool aid that some banter around on here.

I'd say you could probably do better, but if you want to just shoot tiny groups, stick with your bolt gun. I've been debating on getting one for just that. What model Ruger do you have?


Oh and FWIW, there's nothing to glass bed on an AR. You're thinking of bolt guns and M1A's.
Link Posted: 7/31/2008 12:41:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JJREA:
If you're putting pressure on the barrel while it's on the bags, that can be part of the problem. It's not free floated. I get a shift in POI with my 20" A2 if I do that. One time I was shooting off of a ammo can and putting alot of pressure on it, and I had shots going vertical. It changed my POI very much at 50 yards.


I don't care what people say, stock AR's that shoot MOA or even hit 2 are hard to find. I think they can do it, but you have to find the ammo it likes #1, which they can be REAL picky about what they like. Although the 52's are usually a safe bet. If your barrel is not free floated, it can affect things when shooting for accuracy. And a NATO chamber is not necessarily conducive to target accuracy. A thin barrel may also be a little tougher to shoot well with due to the heat. The last point I think is the most unimportant factor out of all of what I listed, as long as your not zinging them on right after the other.

My wylde chambered, free floated, Heavy barreled, SS barreled recce shoots consistently better than any stock AR I have. With more ammo and with more ease. Otherwise, what's the point of doing all that than? If your stock AR shoots 1-2 MOA consistently, more power to you. I'm not that lucky or blessed or skilled. Now my recce, yeah, no problem. But a rack grade AR, I have a hard time swallowing the ultra accuracy kool aid that some banter around on here.

I'd say you could probably do better, but if you want to just shoot tiny groups, stick with your bolt gun. I've been debating on getting one for just that. What model Ruger do you have?


Oh and FWIW, there's nothing to glass bed on an AR. You're thinking of bolt guns and M1A's.


No, it wasn't me talking about glass bedding an AR...I know that isnt an option with an AR...uh, I have a Ruger M77 Mark II in .223 with a Leupold 3-9x40 scope...Not super nice, but it is consistent and all I could afford at the time.
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k446/sirgilbert357/IMG_0400.jpg
Link Posted: 7/31/2008 1:22:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2008 1:30:10 PM EST by sirgilbert357]
So, to sum things up, here is what I have learned from this thread...feel free to correct me if I am wrong/missing something:

*Shooting @ 100 yds and getting 2 - 3.5 inch groups with an SP1 is normal.
*The carry handle-mounted scope is just inherently a bad idea and I would be better off using iron sights, no matter how tight I perceive it to be.
*Based on the pics and responses I have noted, my SP1 and barrel is not "shot out" or worn out.
*Since SP1's are not free floated, shooting from sandbags might be contributing to my group size, but these are still acceptable groups at 100 yds.


I guess I will actually look into putting that BSA 4-16x40 scope on my Marlin 60 .22 hatAnd I guess since that tri-rail is thread locked on there, I might just slap a laser and/or flashlight on there to make use of it instead of wrestling it off...
Link Posted: 7/31/2008 1:27:31 PM EST
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Originally Posted By GlockRocket34:
SirGilbert
I also have a Colt SP1 (1979 vintage), as well as a 6601 HBAR (1992 vintage), and a Stag M4-gery. I did some rest shooting at 50 yards using UMC 55 gr FMJ ammo. With the SP1 (open sights) I got groups of 3/8-1/2".
The Stag, same load, was 1-1/2". withthe open sights and about 5/8" with a BSA Red Dot sight.
The 6601 can stay around 2" with the 'made in china' cheap Colt copy scope, but the groups shift.
All groups were shot with my hand under the foreend over a rolled-up towel from a bench.
As some have stated, the cheap optics, and the less than desireable mounting on the carry handle are most likely a large part of the problem.
My favaorite to shoot? The open sight SP1!!!!


Man, you rock...I doubt that I will get 3/8 to 1/2 inch groups with open sights at 100 yds. I dont have a lot of experience shooting this gun with open sights. I am confident I could hit a chest or even head-sized target at 50 yds and closer with open sights, but not 100...
Link Posted: 7/31/2008 1:42:27 PM EST
I worked up some loads for a freind of mines H-Bar Elite and this was what it would group at 100meters with five shots. It had a 1/9 twist and I was using 55grn V-Max with 24.7 of H335 with LC brass. I know it doesn't mean anything for a 1/12 twist barrel, but I thought I'd show it anyway. I work up a lot of loads for my pals, I'll see what I can do with one of my 1/12 retro's and let you know.
Link Posted: 7/31/2008 1:47:47 PM EST
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Originally Posted By airgun1:
The fit between upper and lower has zero affect on accuracy. The AMU did a study/test and determined no accuracy increase was gained with a nice snug fit. They did specify that there was a psychological factor of having a nice tight gun and a wobbler.

I stand by my earlier recommendation to coat that scope mount with tape, enough that it compresses when you tighten the nut. I guarantee that is a weak link. Also it is very hard to shoot a carry handle scope mounted gun. Each differnt head/cheek placement will yield a different point of impact.

As I said load up some 52 gn Sierra HPBT MatchKings and use Winchester 748 powder. That usually works pretty darn good at 100 yards. If a barrel has some throat wear the 53 gn HP Matchking usually works better.


I dont reload or have any reloading equipment, so I cant try the ammo/powder combo you suggest. I will, however, try any and all recommended factory ammo posted in this thread...I'm making a list, so if you want to add to it, feel free. I dont think I will bother taking the scope mount off and coating it with tape just yet...I plan to experiment with my theory on the scope itself being a piece of crap. I think I'm going to mount it on my new Remington 700 tactical in .308 to see if it can hold a zero. I'm betting it wont...but if it DOES, then I will try your tape on the scope idea to see if I can tighten the groups a little. If I do go that route, what kind of tape are you suggesting??
Link Posted: 7/31/2008 1:51:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By GUTS:
I worked up some loads for a freind of mines H-Bar Elite and this was what it would group at 100meters with five shots. It had a 1/9 twist and I was using 55grn V-Max with 24.7 of H335 with LC brass. I know it doesn't mean anything for a 1/12 twist barrel, but I thought I'd show it anyway. I work up a lot of loads for my pals, I'll see what I can do with one of my 1/12 retro's and let you know.
i57.photobucket.com/albums/g236/Gutss/1220071605.jpg


Well, I dont have any reloading equipment or the money or space to do so, so I only shoot factory loads...
Link Posted: 8/1/2008 6:49:03 AM EST
Another piece of advice that is worth what you paid for it! hen
Bottom line...rest the SP1 rifle's magazine on the bags instead of the front handguards to maximize platform accuracy with the load of choice.

A side note is this...What do you plan to do with the rifle? If you plan to use it as a long distance varmiter then you work is cut out for you and I would think a special built AR would be a smarter choice. For plinking or other action types of gun games the rifle will outshoot you so buy some inexpensive ammo that stays in 4 inches at 100 yards and have fun.

Several years ago I ended up with 3x9 Bushnell from K-Mart and had it on several rifles. It was a $40 scope and worked great but found its home on my old Winchester Model 77 .22 LR. Big piece of glass for that old rimfire but it make popping pop cans at 100+ yards a simple feat.
Link Posted: 8/1/2008 7:44:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/4/2008 9:23:43 AM EST
Well, Thanks for all the replies. I took the scope off and am going to the range today to make sure the iron sights are still sighted in. Guess I will have to use the Ruger bolt for the varmint hunting (if I EVER find anyone that needs it on their land) and just keep the SP1 in its iron sighted form for now. I don't have the money for another AR right now so building a truly accurate one will have to wait. Guess I could always keep that rail on there and mount an Aimpoint or something when I get the cash...
Link Posted: 8/18/2008 7:24:42 AM EST
There's a lot of good info in this thread, so I'll just add my .02 on the accuracy potential for a A1 barreled rifle. Back in the 1980's I shot on a USAR rifle and pistol team. We shot M-16A1's with issued M193. The military standard is, believe it or not, 6" at 100 meters. The 25 meter standard for zeroing is six rounds in a row into a 6 MOA circle. I have seen a few M-16's that couldn't meet this standard, but most will shoot 2-3 MOA. I went through numerous rifles trying to find one that would break the sub 2 MOA barrier, and it is possible to find one. All the advice you're getting on the pencil barrel having an adverse effect on accuracy is on the money, although I never experienced any zeroing problems resting the handguards on the sandbags. The heavier barrel of the A2 makes for a sub 2 MOA rifle on average, and a sub 1 MOA rifle if you look hard enough.


Originally Posted By sirgilbert357:
So, to sum things up, here is what I have learned from this thread...feel free to correct me if I am wrong/missing something:

*Shooting @ 100 yds and getting 2 - 3.5 inch groups with an SP1 is normal.
*The carry handle-mounted scope is just inherently a bad idea and I would be better off using iron sights, no matter how tight I perceive it to be.
*Based on the pics and responses I have noted, my SP1 and barrel is not "shot out" or worn out.
*Since SP1's are not free floated, shooting from sandbags might be contributing to my group size, but these are still acceptable groups at 100 yds.


I guess I will actually look into putting that BSA 4-16x40 scope on my Marlin 60 .22 Finding scope rings that work with it will probably be impossible since the gun isn't meant for that large of a scope, but what else am I gonna do with it...Might be fun if I can get it to work, lol.
And I guess since that tri-rail is thread locked on there, I might just slap a laser and/or flashlight on there to make use of it instead of wrestling it off...
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