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Posted: 10/21/2004 6:04:30 PM EST
Why do so many people seem to hate Colt AR's? I've read that some parts are not mil-spec, but I'm not sure what. If you guys could help, that would be great.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:18:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:19:19 PM EST
Some of the parts in a Colt AR do not interchange with milspec parts. the piviot pin and the trigger/ hammer pins are larger than mil spec.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:20:14 PM EST
"seach" button, the answers to this and the other top NewB questions are answered repeatedly throughout this forum.

and btw, there's nothing wrong with Colts, Tier 1 guns, they're just overpriced
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:05:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By 02Overlander:
"seach" button, the answers to this and the other top NewB questions are answered repeatedly throughout this forum.

and btw, there's nothing wrong with Colts, Tier 1 guns, they're just overpriced[/quote

I've owned Bushmaster & Colt, and handled and shot just about every brand.
I will say unequivocally that my best experiences have been with Colt.
As an LEO, I've picked the brains of armorers I know, I've researched what others that run schools have to say, and the Colt always comes out on top.
All my AR's are now Colt, and I personally won't even look at another brand.
But thats just me.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:21:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 8:22:48 AM EST by mongo001]
Colt is the standard that all others AR manufacturers work towards. Some are very close, thus I don't pay the premium for Colt, other than certain parts; others are not, thus I don't use these "others". This is an old, worn out topic with the same people chiming in on either side of the argument, as you will likely see.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:03:14 PM EST
I would have to agree with you Mongo as I have had two bushys,a DPMS,and a PWA!

And while they all shot flawlessly the New Sporter Target that I just bought(pre-ban) has the best finnish and fit(right up there with the Bushy)!

And it was dead on at 3/8 6 right from the git go!!!

I would never hesitate to buy a good Bushy,Armalite,RRA,PWA,DPMS,or other quality made AR!

But a Colt is something one must own just one time!!!


Then you can bash it all you like!!!!

But I think you will be pleasently supprised!!!


Bob
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:09:12 PM EST
Not this thread again
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:52:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 8:54:35 PM EST by Robert2011]
Some people hate Colts because they don't own them. Then there is another reason.

What does milspec mean? Well, there are a ton of parts are "made" to milspec. The problem though is even a milspec part can be defective. Some parts have to be tested, measured, and INSPECTED to make sure, and sometimes that is not done by all the companies out there. That's why a Colt bolt is worth a premium.

If you fire a few magazines at the range every week you may never find out you have a defective bolt. You might even fire tens of thousands of rounds and never have a problem. But then one day you fire 300 rounds in a matter of minutes and your bolt fails under the stress because it has a small crack.

Colt INSPECTS their milspec "made" parts to make sure they meet ALL MILSPEC STANDARDS.

It's the same with M193 ammo. Not only is it "made" to milspec standards, every lot is "tested" to make sure it meets the standards. Does it have the correct velocity and accuracy at 100 meters? The military cares about stuff like that so they put it in the specs.

The military also has a shelf life for some milspec items. Sometimes shelf life’s are extended because the product is still viable when it tested years after it was manufactured. Protective mask filters in some lots are given extended use dates. If they were to fail a test they could be pulled from the system early.

Sometimes actual M193 ammo hits the surplus market and some people avoid it because it might have failed a long term inspection and was pulled as a result.

All this costs money. Sometimes inspecting a part costs as much or more than it cost to manufacture it. Often the ugly part with rough machining marks passes the inspection, but the lovely finished knock off isn't and wouldn't pass inspection if it was. That's why Colt is loved by some and hated by others.

Link Posted: 10/22/2004 9:15:28 PM EST
I won't chime in unless someone says something stupid.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 10:30:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 11:45:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By RAMBOSKY:
I won't chime in unless someone says something stupid.



Link Posted: 10/23/2004 12:35:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 12:41:41 AM EST by knightone]

Originally Posted By stingerjg:
Some of the parts in a Colt AR do not interchange with milspec parts. the piviot pin and the trigger/ hammer pins are larger than mil spec.



On older Colts (say around pre-`93) the pivot pin on civilian models are larger, but the trigger hammer pins are milspec. Then there was about a year when the pivot pins and the hammer pins were all mislpec. After around the time of the ban, all semi-auto Colts (both civilian and LEO) had standard size front pivot holes (some civilian models had the screw type pin instead of the standard milspec captivated push pin, as I recall), but the trigger/hammer pins were made oversized. This is still true today.

I actually like Colt. I think they have the highest QC of any of the manufacturers and hold any parts they farm out under a stricter standard than any of the otehr companies. That's not saying I would turn down any AR or any component from the other quality makers and marketers of ARs and AR parts. It's just that Colt is a lot more strict about their tolerances, specs, and overall quality of parts than the others. That's not to say Colt doesn't have the occasional problem. And, in the end, an AR is prone to human error on the part of the person assembling it. However, adhering to strict tolerances and having strict QC standards does go a long way in ensuring a quality product will be delivered from the factory.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:17:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 3:50:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:34:40 PM EST
I'm claiming that both my Colt and Bushmaster AR's are Tactical !
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:49:06 PM EST
I'm a newbie so I don't know squat!

Now, that being said, I've learned a lot about this question having posed it myself and read the plethora of responses here on ARFCOM.

It seems as though there are a few brands such as Bushmaster, RRA, and please forgive me for leaving out the others, that seem to be somewhat equivalent to Colt in terms of reliability and performance. You actually here more people complaining about Colts on this forum, not because of quality, but because of people perception of Colt's way of doing business. People here seem to think that Colt is not on the side of civilians with regards to protecting our 2nd ammendment rights. That opinion is easily debatable.

What I can tell you from my research, not experience, is that all other ARs are basically knock-offs of Colts. It's kind of like when IBM had the first Microsoft based PCs and they were considered the best, even for several years after companies like Dell, Gateway, HP started to make almost identical computers. Like Colts, IBMs were also the most expensive. Now, technology has allowed for these IBM knock-offs to catch up and in some cases excede the performance of original IBM computers. Even though IBM was the first, the title of best is seriously questionable. Colts are the standard by which all other ARs are designed. They are the 'designer' brand that many people are willing to pay more for. That doesn't mean that other manufacturers cant make them better, but by the same token, I don't think that there's really any proof that anyone has made a better one. Proof in this market is with experience, and Colt has the most combat proven experience of any other current production military rifle (except maybe the AK? I don't know).

There's my .02
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:23:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 9:24:28 PM EST by Boom_Stick]
Most people hate Colt cause they supposedly alienate their civilian sales. To those I say: I guess thats why they put out the MT6400 after the ban...to alienate us. Riiiiiight.


When your the best everyone nipps at your heels.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:13:24 PM EST

Some people also hate Colt because they have all those little inspection and proof marks on them. How dare Colt charge extra for that. Other AR makers don't the waste time or effort and pass the savings on to you!
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:17:13 PM EST
Notice by the above 2 posts that people don't hate Colts for performance reasons. It's politics and money. Nobody complains about the guns themselves.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 2:35:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Edge767:
www.burnerblog.com/media/deargod.jpg



+1
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 2:38:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By CastorTroy:
Why do so many people seem to hate Colt AR's? I've read that some parts are not mil-spec, but I'm not sure what. If you guys could help, that would be great.



I hate my sear Block
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 2:47:25 AM EST
Ever since they were kids they always wanted a pony and their Daddy never got them one.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:52:11 AM EST
I've got several Colts. Not a problem. Ever.

One RRA-minor issues. Easy to work out but still issues.

One Bushy. Had to go back to factory twice--once for not perm affixing phantom, second was due to rail on upper being out of spec and wouldn't take my ARMS#19 mount. Now the gas key came loose. I'll try to stick with Colt in the future but they seem to have a problem with giving us what we want.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:01:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 6:02:43 AM EST by shamayim]
Bare uppers and lowers? Any major brand; though I personally prefer Bushie and Rock River.

Barrels? Colt (if it's a chrome lined type) and/or Bushie.

Bolts and carriers? Colt! No second choice.

Innards? Colt or Bushie. Actually, I haunt the parts dealers at shows for Colt marked triggers, hammers, etc.; though the one set I got from Bushmaster looks good so far.

Stocks and forends? Colt exclusively, except for the M4 type buttstock assy; cause I can't afford it

Generally, when people talk about brand, they seem to be referring to who made the upper, lower, and barrel. When it comes to uppers and lowers, all the major players are making good stuff these days. Barrels are somewhat more variable when it comes to quality, so 4150 steel and chrome lining restricts the choice for me.

My experience is, though, that it's those pieces inside that will get your ass in a sling if they aren't top of the line stuff. And that's why it's Colt for the innards and stocks at my house

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:30:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 4:41:58 PM EST by RAMBOSKY]

Originally Posted by captainpoopy: "Ever since they were kids they always wanted a pony and their Daddy never got them one. "


No, not really............I wanted a Vet. But..............my Uncle Sam got me one(Colt Pony) in 1968. It was just a loner and I had to give it back. But I did buy a 1967 Stingray 427.

I promised I wouln't chime in unless someone posted something stupid. But................I like most of the captains posts and he does have a good but somtimes silly sense of humor. I luv ya man!
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:58:11 AM EST
This is not a loaded question. Really! But doesn't the fact that the DEA & FBI picked RRA over the other brands in what I believe are the latest government reliability / quality / accuracy tests count for something? I have read several articles regarding the testing and only one manufacturer was awarded the contract. This sounds important to me though most on theses boards seem to stick to there limited experience and crude testing methods to form opinions of rifle quality...
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:03:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 9:07:57 AM EST by RAMBOSKY]
ARniesAR,

Cost is a major factor also.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:07:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By CastorTroy:
Why do so many people seem to hate Colt AR's? I've read that some parts are not mil-spec, but I'm not sure what. If you guys could help, that would be great.




They have never owned one, that's why
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:10:35 AM EST
From everything Colt makes...Python to AR-15...one common truth...

An OLD Colt is better than a NEW Colt
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:48:23 AM EST
Come on baby lite my fire
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 10:34:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 10:44:16 AM EST by CJan_NH]

Originally Posted By ARniesAR:
This is not a loaded question. Really! But doesn't the fact that the DEA & FBI picked RRA over the other brands in what I believe are the latest government reliability / quality / accuracy tests count for something? I have read several articles regarding the testing and only one manufacturer was awarded the contract. This sounds important to me though most on theses boards seem to stick to there limited experience and crude testing methods to form opinions of rifle quality...


You sir, are incorrect...

Contrary to Internet and gun rag folklore, the DEA and FBI picked RRA, Colt, and Sig. Don't believe everything you read in magazines...espcially gun rags.

For a bonus question: Of these three manufaturers, which ones have actually received purchase orders and shipped weapons?

While you're at it, read this: AR15 deficiencies

Edited to add:

DEA DEA-03-C-0030 Multi-Bureau Sigarms, Inc. 06/20/08 .223 Carbines Connie Jones
(202)307-7804
DEA DEA-03-C-0031 Multi-Bureau Colt Defense 06/20/08 .223 Carbines Connie Jones
(202)307-7804
DEA DEA-03-C-0032 Multi-Bureau Rock River Arms 06/20/08 .223 Carbines Connie Jones
(202)307-7804

USDOJ Link

Edited to add again:

Here are the dollar amounts:

DEA-03-C-0030 - Estimated $115,142,537.00
CARBINE RIFLE
Sigarms, Inc., 18 Industrial Drive, Exeter, N. H. 03833

DEA-03-C-0032 - Estimated $85,923,935.00
CARBINE RIFLE
Rock River Arms, Inc., 1042 Cleveland Road, Colona, Il. 61241

DEA-03-C-0031 - Estimated $113,639,340.00
CARBINE RIFLE
Colt Defense LLC, PO Box 118, Hartford, Ct. 06141

FBO Daily Link
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 11:12:08 AM EST
sometimes its not about the company's GUNS that they sell; its about the COMPANY

colt seems to have givent citizens a "big screw you up the a-hole" style marketing as they raise prices, cut production, screw up the size of parts so you will buy repacements ONLY from them, and sue the competition (HK, bushy) caue they suck at marketing

go BUSHMASTER or rra
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 11:13:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:

FBO Daily Link



I appreciate the information and resource directory but one question remains. Doesn't the rifle RRA submitted have to match up to the others in all respects (quality, accuracy etc.) to be awarded a contract? Or would the DEA / FBI accept a lesser weapon in order to satisfy there armament quota? Thanks again for your first reply as this was the first factual answer anyone has ever forwarded after many attempts and if it is not asking too much I have another question or two waiting. Regards, Arnie
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 11:31:46 AM EST
I've worked government orders, and it comes down to a few things. What item passes the requirements, then which costs the least after the winners are declared. Price is certainly an object, but after the parameters are set.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 11:40:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Stickman:
I've worked government orders, and it comes down to a few things. What item passes the requirements, then which costs the least after the winners are declared. Price is certainly an object, but after the parameters are set.



Thanks Stickman that makes sense but I wasn't sure if the government subscribed to this theory. Do you know if the testing is extensive and do some brands actually get eliminated?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 11:45:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Colt is the standard that all others AR manufacturers work towards. Some are very close, thus I don't pay the premium for Colt, other than certain parts; others are not, thus I don't use these "others". This is an old, worn out topic with the same people chiming in on either side of the argument, as you will likely see.



Yeah, everybody else works toward non standard pivot pins, non standard fire control pins, and now I'm sure they're all scrambling to figure out how to keep offering "post ban" style neutered models to everyone.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:34:03 PM EST
I like Colt
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:08:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By SNorman:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Colt is the standard that all others AR manufacturers work towards. Some are very close, thus I don't pay the premium for Colt, other than certain parts; others are not, thus I don't use these "others". This is an old, worn out topic with the same people chiming in on either side of the argument, as you will likely see.



Yeah, everybody else works toward non standard pivot pins, non standard fire control pins, and now I'm sure they're all scrambling to figure out how to keep offering "post ban" style neutered models to everyone.



If you know me, you know I don't back Colt, as I think the premium paid for them is unnecessary. I use their barrels, bolts and some FCG parts, but you can have the the receivers, as they do nothing for the overall function of the rifle that most other milspec parts can do and are the "show me" parts that everyone's ego is after. As for their stand on different sized pins, that's just plain bull headed, but they have come around on most of their models.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:17:24 PM EST
A quality AR15 is a quality AR15. I really dont care who it comes from as long as it has the features I'm looking for. Colt has a military contract so that gives them more street cred, but I dont really feel envy toward Colt owners. All my Bushmasters and Olympic Arms rifles serve me well, never a problem. As long as that is the case, I could care less which company has its named slapped on the side...
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:33:29 PM EST
Well I bought my Colt LE6920 for a few reasons that isn't worth mentioning, but one reason that did make a difference 1 in 7 Twist.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:40:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By edwin247:
1 in 7 Twist.



BINGO!!!! That was the very first part I bought for my M4gery build, a Colt M4 barrel with 1/7 twist. So now I have a mongo built, perfectly running M4 build with DD7.0, LMT BUIS, PRI front flip sight and Aimpoint Comp M2 with ARMS cantilever mount on a Bushmaster lower with mostly Colt FCG and VLTOR carbine modstock - ALL for just over the price of what a new Colt is going for WITHOUT all the bells and whistles. Of course, I got a few good deals on the EE for the misc parts, but I'm still WAY ahead.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:42:51 PM EST
Aw jeez!! Here we go again, Colt vs everone.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:45:33 PM EST
My first rifle ever was a Colt AR. I loved that rifle, the finish was unbeatable (almost unbreakable). But it also only cost my dad $425, assembled new in a factory box. My current AR is almost identical to Colt's Tactical Carbine, only made by Olymic Arms. I have not had one problem mechanially with it and it cost me $649, assembled new in a factory box shipped with a semi-hard case and 20 rd DPMS mag (the dealer also through in a free 30 rd DPMS mag). I must admit though that the finish of the Oly lower is not anywhere near the quality of a Colt. But a Colt in the same configuration would have cost me almost double. I was not willing to pay double for "pretty".
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:52:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 7:53:31 PM EST by El_Roto]

Originally Posted By kozmic:
[...] it cost me $649[...]. But a Colt in the same configuration would have cost me almost double. I was not willing to pay double for "pretty".



My LE6920's sticker is $300 more than your Oly's - 46% more, not double. And we both know which one will have the higher resale value, so there's more to the Colt than "pretty".

We need one of these but with a Pony instead of a horse in the middle.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:12:41 PM EST
OK Sorry NiceGuyMr BUT please look into it...

Armalite came up with the AR-15 BUT as they were a small company and the govt. did not do biz with those small companies (look at browning in the early years) Armalite worked with Colt and somehow Colt made them BUT if you look at the early versions They have both Colt and Armalite on them ALSO (I could easily be wrong here BUT) I was told the AR in all of these really stands for Armalite.

Im cant swear by this but its what I have been told and read from very reliable resources.


Originally Posted By niceguymr:
.

What I can tell you from my research, not experience, is that all other ARs are basically knock-offs of Colts. It's kind of like when IBM had the first Microsoft based PCs and they were considered the best, even for several years after companies like Dell, Gateway, HP started to make almost identical computers. Like Colts, IBMs were also the most expensive. Now, technology has allowed for these IBM knock-offs to catch up and in some cases excede the performance of original IBM computers. Even though IBM was the first, the title of best is seriously questionable. Colts are the standard by which all other ARs are designed. They are the 'designer' brand that many people are willing to pay more for. That doesn't mean that other manufacturers cant make them better, but by the same token, I don't think that there's really any proof that anyone has made a better one. Proof in this market is with experience, and Colt has the most combat proven experience of any other current production military rifle (except maybe the AK? I don't know).

There's my .02

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:30:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 8:31:52 PM EST by knightone]

Originally Posted By El_Roto:

Originally Posted By kozmic:
[...] it cost me $649[...]. But a Colt in the same configuration would have cost me almost double. I was not willing to pay double for "pretty".



My LE6920's sticker is $300 more than your Oly's - 46% more, not double. And we both know which one will have the higher resale value, so there's more to the Colt than "pretty".

We need one of these but with a Pony instead of a horse in the middle.



Have you seen what the model is going for this month? The dealers seem to be driving the price up. SAW was charging more than twice the price of an Oly or RRA or even a Bushy for Colt LE M4s. It's not completely Colt's fault, but demand for the product is outstripping supply and the bigger Colt dealers seem to be taking advantage of it. I'm glad you got a good deal, but not everyone can find that. I don;t have anyone in my area who carries the Colt LE models, so I'd have to deal with places like SAW and pay what they want for them.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:54:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 8:55:28 PM EST by Boom_Stick]

Originally Posted By knightone:
I'm glad you got a good deal, but not everyone can find that. I don;t have anyone in my area who carries the Colt LE models, so I'd have to deal with places like SAW and pay what they want for them.




StyreAUG is selling LE models on the EE for a little under $1K + change.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:06:56 PM EST
Castor Troy,
(AKA "Flannel Boy")

Is the RC51 in the shop or what?

Colt, if you can handle the political baggage.
Bushmaster if you don't mind the thing ain't a Colt.
Armalite if you can handle the price.
Rock River if you dons't mind a bit of a wait for a SOLID rifle.

Buy new if you can.

BTW.
You realize of course that your Minty and delicious SP1 that was left to you, is worth a mint and could very well cover the cost of a new Bushmaster AND several cases of ammo right?

Forgive me, just saw the handle on the original post.
Would have chimed in earlier had I been paying attention.
Even if you are deluded about the whole "Duck eater" thing.
(Bet my Sophie still has a higher resale AND will pound that rice grinder in the 1/8th mile )

S-28

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:16:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:

Originally Posted By knightone:
I'm glad you got a good deal, but not everyone can find that. I don;t have anyone in my area who carries the Colt LE models, so I'd have to deal with places like SAW and pay what they want for them.




StyreAUG is selling LE models on the EE for a little under $1K + change.



Thanks for the tip! I'll do a search.

Well, that goes to show if people searched the EE, they wouldn't stand for the prices some of the dealers are charging and those same dealers wouldn't be able to drive up the prices.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:26:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 9:28:03 PM EST by Boom_Stick]

Originally Posted By knightone:

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:

Originally Posted By knightone:
I'm glad you got a good deal, but not everyone can find that. I don;t have anyone in my area who carries the Colt LE models, so I'd have to deal with places like SAW and pay what they want for them.




StyreAUG SteyrAUGis selling LE models on the EE for a little under $1K + change.



Thanks for the tip! I'll do a search.

Well, that goes to show if people searched the EE, they wouldn't stand for the prices some of the dealers are charging and those same dealers wouldn't be able to drive up the prices.



Dangit! I always spell his name wrong. Heres the link. The M4 is $1035, not bad.
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