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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/1/2005 1:46:03 PM EDT
Does anyone build cold hammer forged AR barrels?
I know HK does for their 416 "verbotten" system, but I don't mean those traitors.
Such a barrel with a POF or a LW piston system would closely duplicate the forbidden HK 416 system.

Jorge
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 2:04:04 PM EDT
Umm why would we want a barrel that has poor accuracy and is full of stresses due to hammer forging? There are better options for either durability or accuracy. I refuse to buy hammer forged barrels. It would be the BIGGEST turn off for a wepon for me I could imagine.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 3:06:23 PM EDT
DevL, how do you explain the FN SPR's accuracy then? It shoots 1/2MOA with a chrome lined hammer forge barrel that started life as the blank for an M240B barrel.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 3:07:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Umm why would we want a barrel that has poor accuracy and is full of stresses due to hammer forging? There are better options for either durability or accuracy. I refuse to buy hammer forged barrels. It would be the BIGGEST turn off for a wepon for me I could imagine.



Agreed. CHF's main attraction is production capability -- you can crank out lots of barrels on a CHF setup. Equipment is costly up front, so only big companies can afford them. CHF barrels can be made accurate, but to do so requires several stress relieving cycles and by that point, cost is equivalent. If not stress relieved, CHF barrels will walk shots as the barrel heats up.

Given the same alloys, longevity might be a benefit over buttoned or cut barrels, I'm not sure if one mfg technique offers any advantage over the other. I'll let others chime in on that aspect.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 3:14:22 PM EDT
I may be completely wrong on this, but I always heard the advantage of the CHF barrels where they were stronger than comparable barrels made via other methods and had a much longer service life. I don't know if that is true or not but have heard/read that from several sources.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 3:18:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 3:28:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 4:02:07 PM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 4:06:32 PM EDT
I have seen two tables that showed SPR accuracy as tested in magazine articles. 1 rifle average close to 1/2 MOA, sometimes even less, the other was a shade under 3/4 MOA. Not bad for a barrel that will last a long, long time, and never needed to be broken in. BTW, this was with factory ammo and shooters of unknown ability.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 4:20:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 4:21:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 4:29:50 PM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By DevL:
Umm why would we want a barrel that has poor accuracy and is full of stresses due to hammer forging? There are better options for either durability or accuracy. I refuse to buy hammer forged barrels. It would be the BIGGEST turn off for a wepon for me I could imagine.



I'd have to agree with the rest...............................where did this nugget of info come from.

Biggest turnoff, other than having a barrel longer than 11.5", of course.

IIRC, Diemaco was using hammer forged barrels for their M16 look alikes also (my memory says that SMGLee had one of those barrels).
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 4:23:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I have seen two tables that showed SPR accuracy as tested in magazine articles. 1 rifle average close to 1/2 MOA, sometimes even less, the other was a shade under 3/4 MOA. Not bad for a barrel that will last a long, long time, and never needed to be broken in. BTW, this was with factory ammo and shooters of unknown ability.



Not that impressive, considering that your average Savage rifle can do the same thing, for less cost, and that won't be a CHF barrel...


Link Posted: 9/1/2005 4:27:44 PM EDT
The Savage is an inferior weapon though. I had one, when I was little. A model 110 with a synthetic stock. The POS had a plastic iron sight in the front (the base, not the post), a plastic safety and all the fit and finish of something made in a garage in China.

The SPR has a steel triggerguard, better stock, and a better action, IMHO.

Ultimate accuracy isn't everything.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 4:33:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 4:34:03 PM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:10:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Umm why would we want a barrel that has poor accuracy and is full of stresses due to hammer forging? There are better options for either durability or accuracy. I refuse to buy hammer forged barrels. It would be the BIGGEST turn off for a wepon for me I could imagine.





?
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:18:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Umm why would we want a barrel that has poor accuracy and is full of stresses due to hammer forging? There are better options for either durability or accuracy. I refuse to buy hammer forged barrels. It would be the BIGGEST turn off for a wepon for me I could imagine.



I cannot imagine a better option for durability. As far as accuracy goes, one properly made barrel will shoot as good as another properly made barrel.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 7:38:01 PM EDT
Well when I think of hammer forged barrels I think of the HK 9X series. Not the most accurate of rifles. The SPR is one of the HEAVIEST of bolt guns in its class. It weighs a lot more than a LTR for example. 1/2 MOA? for an SPR? Id have to see it to believe it. I looked in to buying one used and noone claimed the rifle would do that who owned one. Perhaps the weight of the SPR barrel helps absorb the heat better but it is a fact hammer forging introduces stresses to the barrel steel. This will make the barrel walk as it heats up. I certainly would not want to trade a heavier barrel for extending its life to maintain accuracy as I shoot.

If someone let me shoot some Diemaco barrels and I could get consistant sub MOA accuracy I would certainly retract my position as incorrect "speculation" and I woud have learned something. Till then I see it as a way to mass produce barrels for less money when you need to make a LOT of barrels due to machinery costs. I dont see many of the custom barrel makers using hammer forged barrels to win any shooting competitions. In fact I dont think I have heard of the sub .5 MOA SPR doing that either. If you can show me otherwise I would like to know.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 7:43:21 PM EDT
Diemaco makes hammer forged barrels for AR type rifles.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 8:44:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 8:46:23 PM EDT by SMGLee]
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 8:48:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 8:52:28 PM EDT by M4A2_L073754]
Poor accuracy!?

This group is shot from 164 yds (150 m) with my SPRgery using Sierra 69gr MK, 25.46 gr of VV N140, CCI primer in TZZ94 case. Group measured little less than 3/4"



Other group with 77gr SMK. 25.15gr of VV N140, CCI primer in TZZ94 case. Group size is 1.77" with that damn flyer.



Best group so far in 300 meter is 1.535". I couldn´t find the pic for this but I can post it later if someone wants to see...

Barrel is chambered for .223 Wylde. ROT is 1/8". Barrel is made by Sako of Finland.

Biggest reason for those fliers is box stock trigger of Bushmaster. Now I have RRA 2 stage but so far I haven´t had time to test it.

Accuracy could have been better but I´m very satisfied.

MN
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 10:51:07 PM EDT
I have a Sako TRG42 which I think comes with a hammer forged barrel. I think it's accurate enough with respect to the barrel. However when I shoot the barrel out, I'll probably re barrel it with a cut rifled stainless type of barrel.



IIRC on snipers hide some of the members from finland had Sako barrel blanks cut down to "spr" profile and used these on their AR builds. I suspect they had nice groups from it as well, and it cleans up very nicely too.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:53:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 2:02:40 AM EDT by Humminbird]

Originally Posted By DevL:
Umm why would we want a barrel that has poor accuracy and is full of stresses due to hammer forging? There are better options for either durability or accuracy. I refuse to buy hammer forged barrels. It would be the BIGGEST turn off for a wepon for me I could imagine.



Hmmmm....

Accuracy International uses CHF barrels in their AW and AE series, Sako in all their rifles including the TRG series, Steyr in all their rifles including the SSG series, CZ in all their rifles, FN, H&K, Diemaco, Tikka.... hell the list goes on! H&K uses CHF barrels even in their 21E light machine gun without problems.

The stress issue is controversial at best, I've never seen any evidence of free-floated CHF barrels stringing when hot. I've shot a lot with a CHF barrel on a TRG with suppressor, the barrel was often too hot to touch and the POI didn't change at all. Same thing with my Mk11 SPR clone, that has a custom CHF barrel. Please share your experiences of the stress and stringing issues. You'd be the first person I've met that can give a direct account of events that occured to THEM, instead of repeating some rumors on internet boards or repeating things they heard "from a guy at the range".

Don't get me wrong, CHF is not the end-all of barrel making, other methods can produce barrels of equal quality. Besides, the chamber and crown play a huge role, the rifling is not the main issue. However, I strongly object your view about CHF, it is a proven and widely used method that produces consistent and accurate high quality barrels.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 3:59:36 AM EDT
The only hammer forged barrel I have is a Sako .243 but it seems my barrel is walking more from its thin hunting profile than from the fact it is hammer forged. Thank you for setting me straight guys.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 5:09:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
DevL, how do you explain the FN SPR's accuracy then? It shoots 1/2MOA with a chrome lined hammer forge barrel that started life as the blank for an M240B barrel.


=================
Absolutely correct. +1
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 5:33:59 AM EDT
Hey guys, ease up a bit on DevL. Nobody's saying CHF can't produce accurate barrels, it's just that to do so you need to perfrom several stress relieving cycles to get the barrel steel to "relax". Not all mfg's go through all those processes. Going through those processes hikes up the cost as well.

CHF improves mfg efficiency. A barrel can be pounded out in minutes, much quicker than buttoning or cutting a barrel. Large batches can be stress relieved together -- it's a parallel processing thing.

Lastly, for pure accuracy, I know of no mfg that uses CHF for their process. It may be because the small barrel makers can't afford the up-front costs of the equipment, but the best barrels being produced today are either buttoned or cut, and then lapped. Along with this they are finished by smiths who know how to cut concentric, straight chambers, and cut straight threads in shanks. High production it ain't, but the prrof is in the pudding when you go up and down the line and poll who's using what, whether it's HP or BR.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 5:40:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jmart:
Hey guys, ease up a bit on DevL.



Why ease up? He put that statement out there, with no ifs ands or buts about it, and he should back up the statement or eat it.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 5:45:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jmart:
Lastly, for pure accuracy, I know of no mfg that uses CHF for their process. It may be because the small barrel makers can't afford the up-front costs of the equipment, but the best barrels being produced today are either buttoned or cut, and then lapped. Along with this they are finished by smiths who know how to cut concentric, straight chambers, and cut straight threads in shanks. High production it ain't, but the prrof is in the pudding when you go up and down the line and poll who's using what, whether it's HP or BR.



You got that right. Button cutting is a much cheaper method if you produce barrels in small batches. Hammer forging equipment cost a lot of money and the tooling for different riflings aren't cheap either. A custom barrel will always beat a mass produced barrel in accuracy, that should be obvious. In Europe cold hammer forged barrel blanks are easy to come by, so many smiths use those to make custom barrels. You know what? They shoot as accurately as any custom button cut barrel. Which just goes to prove the point originally made by Mongo: the chamber and crown are key, the method of making the rifling inside the barrel is largely irrelevant if it's done properly.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 3:57:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Humminbird:
Accuracy International uses CHF barrels in their AW and AE series,


AI uses Border barrels which are cut rifled.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:44:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 6:49:37 PM EDT by DevL]
I have never shot a weapon that was hammer forged that was sub MOA or did nto string horribly. I applied too small an amount of knowledge in an inappropriate way. I own one hammer fogred barrel and it strings. I already conceded its probably the light weight of that barrel that makes it string. My sample size was too small to draw correct inferences. I recant my statement because I ASS_U_MEd something without having good, current data. I have been corrected/educated. Thank you.

PS: Without beratement noone would budge from their position or believe the truth when they hear it. It is neccessary that incorrect statements are squashed by more than one person and that its done quickly. I am not upset everyone jumped on me on this one. I appreciate it.
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