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Posted: 8/2/2005 7:22:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 7:23:42 AM EDT by Hylton]
I recently bought my first Bushy and want to keep it looking brand new for as long as poss, so I ask this, can anyone give me some pointers on how to do so, what should and what should I defiantly stay away from on the finish to keep it nice and clean looking. Thanks
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 7:38:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 8:26:14 AM EDT by _DR]
I soak the Bolt group in carbon cutter while I clean the rest of the rifle; you have to make sure and relubricate the BCG thoroughly afterwards though as this strips all lube off. It will not get all the residue off, but a lot of it.

I use a bore snake, CLP(the spray foam stuff gets in the tight areas), q-tip and rags until every q-tip comes back white.
I run a few patches down occasionally (mostly use bore snake) but be very careful because a metal cleaning rod can cause throat erosion. I don't use rods anymore but there are fiberglass ones out there.
Mostly the way the US Army taught me. Get it spotlessly clean, lube the action well, as well all steel surfaces, before storage. You can wipe away any excess lube before you shoot again. I have tried almost every product out there, always come back to Break-free CLP.

Clean ASAP after you shoot. The fouling and residue will harden into a concrete like substance if you wait too long.

There are those who say it's not important to clean your weapon, I could not disagree more with this. Racking and putting away a fouled weapon is very wrong IMO.


ETA: I'd like to try that new chamber maid setup for th locking lug area.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 7:53:43 AM EDT
Good advise from DR. I however use a coated Dewey rod. It cleans better than a boresnake and wont dame the rifling or the crown.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:18:13 AM EDT
i use the otis kit to clean my weapons.


use the chamber brush that is offered with it coupled with the chamber stars to mop up and wipe clean the chamber.


black t-shirt to wipe off whatever so that it doesnt leave lint everywhere.


clp
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:43:17 AM EDT
is non drying motor oil good for the finish
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:52:02 AM EDT
it would be good to attract gunk
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:01:13 AM EDT
Most folks here totally over clean their weapon, then complain it takes hours.


Get an Otis kit. Read your manual. 15 minutes with a little practice.


Don't worry about the carbon on the tail of the bolt or in the carrier, it doesnt' matter - per Armalite.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:01:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:21:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:
is non drying motor oil good for the finish



No, don't use stuff that isn't intended for weapons. If all else fails, get a bottle of CLP, as it would be hard to go wrong with it.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:37:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 10:38:15 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Most folks here totally over clean their weapon, then complain it takes hours.


Get an Otis kit. Read your manual. 15 minutes with a little practice.


Don't worry about the carbon on the tail of the bolt or in the carrier, it doesnt' matter - per Armalite.



Armalite can say what they want, you will still have a dirty rifle.
A rifle put away dirty is a liability.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:43:31 AM EDT


Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:40:14 AM EDT
Actually I sometimes use a little Mobil 1 on the finish and it works great.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:57:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Armalite can say what they want, you will still have a dirty rifle.
A rifle put away dirty is a liability.







The rifle is engineering to allow carbon build up to a point, then it breaks off.

I've got guns with 10,000 rounds that I never clean the carbon on. Run 100%
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:14:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 12:20:14 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Armalite can say what they want, you will still have a dirty rifle.
A rifle put away dirty is a liability.







The rifle is engineering to allow carbon build up to a point, then it breaks off.

I've got guns with 10,000 rounds that I never clean the carbon on. Run 100%



You can call BS all you want. And keep your weapon as dirty as you want, none of my business.
When you train with a weapon for battle for years, you develop different habits.
Those habits don't go away just because a company that has never produced a single military rifle
(No, it's not the same Armalite) says you don't have to clean this or that.

I know what the US Army teaches works, and that's the advice I pass on to others.
If anyone wants to call BS, fine. He asked, I answered. He can take it FWIW.
You want to keep your rifles filthy, that's fine too. Again, do what you want, why would I care.

But the soldiers I served with who did not keep their weapons clean were not the ones anyone wanted to share their foxhole with.



Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:23:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

When you train with a weapon for battle for years, you develop different habits.



The Army like to have things to beat you up for - that doesn't mean it's necessary.


I know what the US Army teaches works, and that's the advice I pass on to others.




What works is good - but I would suggest folks look at the reason the Army wants them spit polish cleaned.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:33:22 PM EDT
I plan on cleaning my Bushy after ever use, but still want some recommendations on a good cleaning kit I should buy, price is not an issue.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 1:33:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By _DR:

When you train with a weapon for battle for years, you develop different habits.



The Army like to have things to beat you up for - that doesn't mean it's necessary.


I know what the US Army teaches works, and that's the advice I pass on to others.




What works is good - but I would suggest folks look at the reason the Army wants them spit polish cleaned.



Not trying to be confrontational. Sorry if I came off that way.
I'm old school, what can I say.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 2:09:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I plan on cleaning my Bushy after ever use, but still want some recommendations on a good cleaning kit I should buy, price is not an issue.



Since price is not an issue (and it shouldn't be, you're right), here's what you need:

Tipton carbon fiber cleaning rod in 22 cal
Bore guide made to fit inside the upper reciever
Wraparound (parker hale style) jag
Pierce (pointy tip) jag
Slotted-style jag (only for wiping clean the chamber and barrel extension)
Bronze bore brush
Lots of square, flannel cleaning patches
Abrasive bore cleaner like JB, Iosso, or Rem Clean (no, it won't harm the bore)
Carbon/powder solvent (I prefer Break Free Carbon cutter, works on light copper fouling as well)
Break Free CLP
Small flashlight to inspect bore
GI chamber brush

Whatever you can't find locally, you can get from Sinclair International or Midway USA
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 2:11:40 PM EDT
I'm fairly certain this qualifies as a stupid question, but WTF is "non-drying" motor oil? As opposed to drying motor oil? Is Mobil1 non-drying motor oil?

Thanks for that link to the Bushmaster oil the outside instruction. I'll keep using CLP internally, but I'll try the motor oil on the outside.

Never heard the term "non-drying" motor oil before, though, and I don't want to use the wrong stuff.

John Collins
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 3:05:19 PM EDT
you got me on that one to
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 7:37:34 PM EDT
Speaking of cleaning products: Has anyone had experience with Break Free Gun Cloths? Are they useful for anything, like wiping down the outside of the rifle?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:06:32 PM EDT
Mobil 1 is synthetic oil.
It will not dry up because it has no petroleum products in it. (From what I remember)

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:33:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 8:34:11 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By -Tex-:
Speaking of cleaning products: Has anyone had experience with Break Free Gun Cloths? Are they useful for anything, like wiping down the outside of the rifle?



Useful for situations where you don't have a bottle of break-free and a rag handy, that's about it.
You can use them on the action too.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:41:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 8:41:47 PM EDT by -Tex-]
Thanks for the clarification!
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:14:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Wraparound (parker hale style) jag
Pierce (pointy tip) jag




So why two different types?

Whats the pros-cons of these two styles of jags?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:24:37 AM EDT
Super dumb question - which caliber Bore Snake works best in the AR? (my local shop didn't have it in .223) And btw, do .22 cleaning brushes, etc. work well? This is my first .223 rilfe.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:42:33 AM EDT
.22 will work fine, but make sure it is the BoreSnake brand, not some copy. the others are crap, aren't as thick and don;t have the built-in brass bristles. I bought a cheap wal-mart copy, it was absolute crap. Went right out and paid $15 for the real thing.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:45:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Most folks here totally over clean their weapon, then complain it takes hours.


Get an Otis kit. Read your manual. 15 minutes with a little practice.


Don't worry about the carbon on the tail of the bolt or in the carrier, it doesnt' matter - per Armalite.



Armalite can say what they want, you will still have a dirty rifle.
A rifle put away dirty is a liability.



Living with OCD is a liability.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:07:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 10:10:33 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By Ellery_Holt:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Most folks here totally over clean their weapon, then complain it takes hours.


Get an Otis kit. Read your manual. 15 minutes with a little practice.


Don't worry about the carbon on the tail of the bolt or in the carrier, it doesnt' matter - per Armalite.



Armalite can say what they want, you will still have a dirty rifle.
A rifle put away dirty is a liability.



Living with OCD is a liability.



If I have it, then Uncle Sam taught it to me, because I was never that way with my firearms before indoctrination. But if you never served and never had to carry a weapon that your life might depend on, I could understand how it might not seem to be an important habit to develop.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:21:26 AM EDT
How much cleaner do you put on the bore snake? A few drops? Soak the first few inches? Soak the whole thing?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 2:13:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 2:54:53 PM EDT by i-ARF-therefore-i-am]

Originally Posted By ToroRojo:
How much cleaner do you put on the bore snake? A few drops? Soak the first few inches? Soak the whole thing?



I have wondered the same thing. Seems to me if you're using bore solvent, then a few drops on the front part, followed by the brush part, and cleaned up by the dry trailing end would suffice. However, what if you use a little bore solvent but then want to run some CLP through the rifle using the Bore Snake? Should you buy two Bore Snakes and use one for solvent and the other for lubing? Any thoughts anyone?

I would think you probably don't have to get too carried away with "soaking the snake". hty.gif
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 3:38:27 PM EDT
I usually run it through about 5 times dry (I have only chrome-lined bores) then pull a couple of CLP soaked patches through, or until they come out white. usually 2-5 patches is enough. (I pull them through with a bore weight/string, have gotten away from cleaning rods). If you soak your snake with CLP, you will likely have to wash it more often, don;t know. Everyone has their own method. Usually wash all my different caliber snakes in a pillowcase which is thrown in with the cleaning rags (don't wash it with your wife's best lingerie if you want to continue living.)
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:34:08 PM EDT
wont happen, unless its a safe queen--i know, i tried

lots of CLP, bore snake and otis kits
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:58:30 PM EDT
Has anyone ever performed an experiment involving NOT cleaning your rifle ? I'm not talking about military,or matches.Just normal stuff like going to the range or your favorite gravel pit and firing off a few hundred rounds and then putting your rifle away until the next trip.

I'm up to about 3k rounds now without a misfire or any other malfunctions using XM193and a Bushy M4gery

My rifle isn't a safe queen and I don't really care if it gets scratched or dinged with normal use.I'm under the impression that more than a few people here freak out when they first got scratches on thier brass deflector..lol

I Wonder what will happen if i type "Sratches on brass deflector" into the ARFCOM search engine ?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 5:11:41 PM EDT
About the finish on my Bushmaster, is it similar to a blued surface? Will my finger prints if unwashed ruin the finish of my Bushmaster?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 5:17:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 5:21:41 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By Gregory_A:
Has anyone ever performed an experiment involving NOT cleaning your rifle ? I'm not talking about military,or matches.Just normal stuff like going to the range or your favorite gravel pit and firing off a few hundred rounds and then putting your rifle away until the next trip.

I'm up to about 3k rounds now without a misfire or any other malfunctions using XM193and a Bushy M4gery

My rifle isn't a safe queen and I don't really care if it gets scratched or dinged with normal use.I'm under the impression that more than a few people here freak out when they first got scratches on thier brass deflector..lol

I Wonder what will happen if i type "Sratches on brass deflector" into the ARFCOM search engine ?





Ask SMGLee, I know he has very high round counts, full auto and otherwise, and probably can give you some idea.


Link Posted: 8/4/2005 5:59:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BB:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Wraparound (parker hale style) jag
Pierce (pointy tip) jag




So why two different types?

Whats the pros-cons of these two styles of jags?



The wraparound is better for scrubbing, the pierce for wiping stuff off.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:02:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:
About the finish on my Bushmaster, is it similar to a blued surface? Will my finger prints if unwashed ruin the finish of my Bushmaster?



No, it is not at all like blueing (which is an oxidation process). The aluminum surfaces are anodized. The steel surfaces are blackened using a process called "parkerizing" which is a manganese phosphate etching process. Both finishes are highly resistant to corrosion, unlike blueing which IS corrosion.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:03:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gregory_A:
Has anyone ever performed an experiment involving NOT cleaning your rifle ? I'm not talking about military,or matches.Just normal stuff like going to the range or your favorite gravel pit and firing off a few hundred rounds and then putting your rifle away until the next trip.

I'm up to about 3k rounds now without a misfire or any other malfunctions using XM193and a Bushy M4gery

My rifle isn't a safe queen and I don't really care if it gets scratched or dinged with normal use.I'm under the impression that more than a few people here freak out when they first got scratches on thier brass deflector..lol

I Wonder what will happen if i type "Sratches on brass deflector" into the ARFCOM search engine ?



A friend of mine got to 3000 rounds with his Bushmaster before it started acting up.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:06:31 PM EDT
While I don't clean my rifle to white glove INSPECTION standards anymore ( Uncle SAM taught ) I still clean her after the range. That day. I Break Free her and wipe her out and clean the lugs area and run a few patches down the barrel. Wipe steel; parts off with CLP and put her away. It's clean but not Uncle SAM clean. I served also and I would rather not share a Fox hole with a guy who don't want to wipe down his rifle also. SEMPER PRIMUS, WarDawg
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:13:09 PM EDT



No, it is not at all like blueing (which is an oxidation process). The aluminum surfaces are anodized. The steel surfaces are blackened using a process called "parkerizing" which is a manganese phosphate etching process. Both finishes are highly resistant to corrosion, unlike blueing which IS corrosion.



Actually anodizing is an oxidation proccess. Anodizing turns the surface of aluminum into aluminum oxide(hard stuff, they make sandpaper out of it}. It is then dyed & sealed, leaving a very tough finish that resists corrosion very well.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:16:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2manytoys:
Actually anodizing is an oxidation proccess.



True, but there is a fundamental difference in the mechanical properties of aluminum oxide compared to ferric oxide.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 1:36:53 AM EDT
thanks guys
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:31:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

If I have it, then Uncle Sam taught it to me, because I was never that way with my firearms before indoctrination. But if you never served and never had to carry a weapon that your life might depend on, I could understand how it might not seem to be an important habit to develop.




It's been said many times, in many places that people do more damage OVERCLEANING their weapons.


I know I did back in the days of scraping carbon.


These are military weapons - they get dirty when you fire the 1st shot. Over anal cleaning just isn't necessary. Carbon scraping just isn't needed at all.

You guys can all do what you want - it's America, and you own the weapon.

Just don't cry how finicky AR's are, or how they take hours to clean - they aren't and they don't. That's a personal choice people make.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:37:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR: I have tried almost every product out there, always come back to Break-free CLP.


i've been a long time hoopes #9 and remoil user, but i went out on a limb and picked up a bottle of break free when i got my first AR. i was very impressed. this stuff is leaps and bounds better then other clp's.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:45:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 9:42:38 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By _DR:

If I have it, then Uncle Sam taught it to me, because I was never that way with my firearms before indoctrination. But if you never served and never had to carry a weapon that your life might depend on, I could understand how it might not seem to be an important habit to develop.




It's been said many times, in many places that people do more damage OVERCLEANING their weapons.


I know I did back in the days of scraping carbon.


These are military weapons - they get dirty when you fire the 1st shot. Over anal cleaning just isn't necessary. Carbon scraping just isn't needed at all.

You guys can all do what you want - it's America, and you own the weapon.

Just don't cry how finicky AR's are, or how they take hours to clean - they aren't and they don't. That's a personal choice people make.



I beg to differ on several points.

It has also been said many times that if you are damaging your weapon while cleaning it, you are doing it wrong. I believe this to be 100% true. I have seen M16s with extremely high round counts that kept on going for decades. Things that were replaced broke due to the stress of firing, such as broken bolts and extractors. I have never seen an M16 lose accuracy or break when it was cleaned properly. Yes, steel cleaning rods can cause throat erosion. I would accept the argument that using a non damaging bore cleaning method could improve throat and bore life.

I have trained soldiers and supervised soldiers training soldiers in cleaning, marksmanship and unit level maintenance for too many years to believe the "overcleaning" myth. If you are doing it right, it will absolutely prolong the life of your weapon just as changing the oil in your engine will give you more miles before it goes tits up. Abrasive foreign matter where metal to metal contact is present causes wear that would not otherwise occur. This is a no brainer. In my opinion the argument that cleaning is harmful stems from rationalization of neglectful behaviour.

My ARs and M16s have never been finicky. I can't recall even one. I read about the reliability issues many AR15.COM members are having on these boards, and I have to conclude many issues are related to poor maintenance and operator error. There are just too many. I have a broad spectrum of AR15 type rifles, from Olys to Colts, and have had no reliability issues with them. Luck? I don't believe in luck. I also say this because I have seen it for years in the military. Poor cleaning technique that leaves crud in the exctractor, encrusted carbon that breaks free and gums up the bolt cam operation, obscured rifling due to excessive copper and powder residue buildup, you name it.

So I also don't buy this argument that cleaning makes you rifle finicky, I have never seen it. I say prove it. I'll wager you can't. Other instances of operator error I have seen are thinks like loading mags and not seating the rounds uniformly by rapping the back of the mag on a firm object, easing the bolt forward, rather than letting it slam home as it was designed to do, and others. The rifle is only as good as the shooter.

I just don't accept that the act of cleaning itself is harmful at all if done correctly. Dozens of M16s, M60s, M2s, M249s, and hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange over almost a decade has proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt of the enormous value of a properly cleaned and appropriately lubed weapon. I'd bet my life on it.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:09:25 AM EDT
You are less likely to shoot a weapon that you have spent hours cleaning. Most of mine are 'dirty', so they are range ready. I will wipe the bolt face, check the chamber and swab it if necessary, punch the bore wipe the bolt and receiver with a CLP covered cloth, and re-lube. 15 minutes or less, ready for zombie defense.

A detail cleaning is good if a drill instructor is going to put a boot in your butt, but it really serves no purpose, other than glorifying your safe queen.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:08:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 9:10:51 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By wildearp:
You are less likely to shoot a weapon that you have spent hours cleaning.



Not true here.

My range time is dictated by free time from work and family needs, not how clean my weapons are.
And I consider cleaning time factored into range time.

This just sounds like another rationalization to justify a dirty rifle.

I clean and maintain my rifles just as I clean and maintain my vehicles, my tools, my garden equipment.

Do you honestly think I am going to put off mowing the lawn because my garden tractor is cleaned and oiled?


Come on now....that's just silly.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:15:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By wildearp:
You are less likely to shoot a weapon that you have spent hours cleaning.



Not true here.

My range time is dictated by free time from work and family needs, not how clean my weapons are.
And I consider cleaning time factored into range time.

This just sounds like another rationalization to justify a dirty rifle.

I clean and maintain my rifles just as I clean and maintain my vehicles, my tools, my garden equipment.

Do you honestly think I am going to put off mowing the lawn because my garden tractor is cleaned and oiled?


Come on now....that's just silly.



I can't believe how people rationalize their filty weapons, can you?

My duck gun got some serious field use in water, mud, dust, and ice when I lived in Kansas. If you saw that gun today, you would not believe it.

The only damage to the throat of ANY of my rifles is from the heat and pressure of gunpowder combustion. I use either coated steel or carbon fiber rods and proper rod guides. The only thing that touches the bore is the patch or brush.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:58:12 AM EDT
I've never used a rod guide on my ARs, just on my M1A. What kind are you guys using?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:59:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 10:24:52 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
Originally Posted By _DR:

I can't believe how people rationalize their filty weapons, can you?



Never ceases to amuse me.
Among the excuses I have heard not to clean a firearm:

1. The powder residue conditions the steel and makes it stronger.
2. Cleaning harms or damages the the gun.
3. The cleaning products are harmful to your health (may be some truth to this one).
4. The dirtier the rifle is, the more accurate it becomes.
5. It is self-cleaning (where have we heard that before)
6. Cleaning supplies are too expensive.
7. I don't have time to clean it.
8. The rifle is meant to be shot until it can't shot any more, then thrown away.
9. If you clean your rifle, it will no longer be waterproof.
10. It is easier for the enemy to detect a soldier with a clean rifle. (maybe if you oil it up too much )
11. If you clean your rifle after sighting it in, it will not hold zero.
12. Cleaning will cause your rifle to be unlucky

And the latest from above - a clean weapon is less likely to be shot.
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