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Posted: 12/31/2004 8:44:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 8:48:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
No matter who made the barrel, an improperly chrome lined barrel will flake and rust, whether you cut it or not.
Colt SP1 barrel – throat and muzzle gauge as new.
www.adcofirearms.com/images/rustedchrome.jpg



Even disregarding the rust issue. Wouldn't the accuracy go to hell then the chrome started flaking off? It wouldn't RUST any faster than a non-chromed barrel and non of my non-chromed look like that.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 8:52:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 9:00:59 AM EDT
Okay, so I've been asking this question on several other sites with no satisfactory response: I have several other firearms, but how come no other firearm has the "chrome vs. non-chromes" debate? I mean, does the AR prefer chrome lined bores, chambers, carriers, all the above, for better function?

None of my firearms save one - a pistol - has a chrome lined ANYTHING. Why do so many people insist a chrome lined bore - minimum - is vital for a quality AR???

I might be getting an AR soon, so I wanna answer this question ASAP, because I could save a lot of $$$ by going non-chromed, and therefore get the rifle sooner. Seems like a chrome bore that has the lining come off is alot worse than a plain chrome-moly bore.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 9:03:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 9:05:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 9:11:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 9:16:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 9:17:48 AM EDT
WOW thats ugly
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 9:21:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 9:26:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 9:34:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 9:48:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2004 9:50:53 AM EDT by cgv69]

Originally Posted By KingLou:
None of my firearms save one - a pistol - has a chrome lined ANYTHING. Why do so many people insist a chrome lined bore - minimum - is vital for a quality AR???



My Beretta AL391 shotgun also has a chrome chamber and bore so it's not just AR or military style weapons thing.

The AR gas system is unique and is unlike most other systems. It has been said that the AR "shits where is eats" meaning the gas system blows crap right back into the action. This causes the action to get dirtier quicker than most other systems. This "dirt" can, and usually will after some time, affect the reliability of the AR's action.

Chrome lined chambers, which is what a lot of people consider a minimum for a quality AR, help combat that situation. A chrome line chamber will not "gun up" as quickly which will lessen failure to extract issues (FTE). A chromed chamber (and barrel) is also much easier to clean.

Most manufacturers simply chrome the whole barrel as it is much harder and more expensive to just chrome the chamber. Colt is the only company I know of who produced some barrels with just chromed chambers.

A lot of people say, "Go Chrome or go home" because the advantage of a chrome lined barrel far outweigh any disadvantages in most situations.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 10:11:59 AM EDT
Looks like someone was firing corrosive ammo! That would degrade the chrome lining.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 10:34:23 AM EDT
Would this be a good reason to clean after every range visit, esp if your shooting unkown ammo?
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 10:38:05 AM EDT
does it matter if u keep shooting through such a barrel ? what would be the consequences ?
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 10:39:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 10:55:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By exocet:
does it matter if u keep shooting through such a barrel ? what would be the consequences ?



crappy accuracy, ant it would only get worse
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 11:41:23 AM EDT
I only use chrome-lined chambers and barrels. I'll take the hit in accuracy (if there is any). Russian rifles like Saigas and Veprs all have chrome-lined bores and chambers in their hammerforged steel barrels. If you want reliability in the worst of conditions, go chrome.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 11:45:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By Combatvet:
Looks like someone was firing corrosive ammo! That would degrade the chrome lining.



I dont believe .223/5.56 was ever made with corrosive primers?? Its just a fluke case of a bad chrome lining job.



This theory cannot be disproved, but you are correct it could have been a bad lining.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 12:28:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KingLou:
Okay, so I've been asking this question ...
None of my firearms save one - a pistol - has a chrome lined ANYTHING. Why do so many people insist a chrome lined bore - minimum - is vital for a quality AR???

I might be getting an AR soon, so I wanna answer this question ASAP, because I could save a lot of $$$ by going non-chromed,



WAAAYYY back, the M16 was first adopted by the Air Force. This apparently put the Army Ordnance Corp's nose out of joint; standardizing rifles was THEIR turf. So it appears that they went hog wild in fielding the new rifle in SE Asia.

Unfortunately, they didn't realize that since they mandated the ammunition be made with ball powder-which is dirtier than the IMR powders they replaced-that the rifle would gunk up quickly in field conditions. Now with ammunition loaded with IMR powder, there's far less fouling anywhere in the rifle, so Armalite felt that the rifle wouldn't need a lot of cleaning.

The Ordnance Corps, having not put the rifle through its arcane and byzantine approval process, forgot about cleaning materials. So the rifle got sent to a wet jungle with ammunition that's guaranteed to leave gunk all over the rifle's guts, and nobody even thought about cleaning the darn things. (Yes, I think that the brass in Ordnance has other priorities than keeping soldiers alive-at least back then.)

A number of soldiers died because their rifles failed-this probably happened in a number of incidents, and more than a few tax payers got incensed. Can't blam 'em. The problem? Rusty chambers that wouldn't chamber or extract. Solution? Hard chrome plating in the chamber. It wound up being simpler to just hard chrome the whole bore, though it wasn't cheap back then.

Long story, but that's where it came from. Today, I've seen the difference between chromed and non-chromed barrels be as little as $40, so if it's avilable, go for it. Shop around to find that price point, though; some vendors act like that chrome plating is really platinum!
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 1:16:02 PM EDT
Funny how they forgot about the chrome, when the m14 had it?
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 1:32:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 1:34:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KingLou:
Okay, so I've been asking this question on several other sites with no satisfactory response: I have several other firearms, but how come no other firearm has the "chrome vs. non-chromes" debate? I mean, does the AR prefer chrome lined bores, chambers, carriers, all the above, for better function?

None of my firearms save one - a pistol - has a chrome lined ANYTHING. Why do so many people insist a chrome lined bore - minimum - is vital for a quality AR???

I might be getting an AR soon, so I wanna answer this question ASAP, because I could save a lot of $$$ by going non-chromed, and therefore get the rifle sooner. Seems like a chrome bore that has the lining come off is alot worse than a plain chrome-moly bore.



Unless you plan on living in the jungle for months at a time w/o cleaning your rifle, getting a chrome barrel is unecessary. Even if the only role your rifle will have is being a defensive tool.

How many people here subject their rifles to the sort of conditions that chrome lined bores were ment to address?

Hardly any fucking few.

Anyone who claims you MUST have a chromed lined bore to have a quality AR is full of shit. Beware what you read here, as there is a lot of "worshiping" of certain people's opinions and no questioning of the dogma is allowed.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 1:41:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 1:47:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 1:53:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By Combatvet:
Looks like someone was firing corrosive ammo! That would degrade the chrome lining.



I dont believe .223/5.56 was ever made with corrosive primers?? Its just a fluke case of a bad chrome lining job.



Some Norinco with corrosive primers(labeled as non-corrosive) slipped in in the early 90's



+1, I shot a case through a chrome lined Colt SP1 carbine & a Non Chrome lined Mini 14 Ranch, Next day while cleaning them I noticed rust down the Minis Barrel, Bolt & gas system (The heavy piece attached to the Operating rod, Whatever they call it), I propmtly scrubbed all out well with Soap & hot water, Scrubbed the rust out with a stainless bore brush & Old GI bore cleaner; Repeated as necessary until all was well.
The COLT was fine, A little dirtier than normal but No Rust. I still cleaned well with Hot soapy water Just in case.
Funny thing is it was inexpensive, very hot ammo (A Noticable kick & Loud), I had another case that was not corrosive, Wish they still imported it!! Better than that WOlf Crap!
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 1:56:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 1:59:07 PM EDT
Military yes, Civilain not needed.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 2:05:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2004 2:09:11 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 3:09:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Common Chrome-Lined barrels/rifles:

US Military

- M14
- M16
- M60
- M240
- M249

Worldwide
- AKs
- SKSs (yes, this was skipped by a few smaller countries)
- Valmet
- FN FAL
- FN FNC
- FN 2000
- L85/SA80
- SIG 550 series
- HK 50/90 series
- HK G-36

Given that this list represents almost all modern military small-arms, do you think there might actually be a REASON that these weapons are chrome-lined?

-Troy



Yes, there is certainly a reason. And it DOES NOT apply to civilians and their rifles 99.99999999% of the time.

Were you last in the critical thinking line?
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 3:12:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2004 3:14:06 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 3:18:41 PM EDT
I've seen quite a few chrome lined barrels that were rusted like that.

But they were on old, high round count M16A1's that were still in service. Most that I've witnessed in this condition were also borderline to unserviceable on the erosion gage too. Nothing that could be attributed to a bad chrome job, just plain worn out from lots of use.

Without stirring the chromed vs. non-chromed pot unnecessarily, I will state this. Chrome lined bores are more resistant to throat erosion than non-chromed bores and will last longer. The anti-corrosion properties are a given plus, but they are not imune to rust. Anything can and will rust given enough neglect or hard use. Another benefit is the ease of cleaning. The barrel is the biggest ticket component on your basic gun, i.e. the heart and sole of the weapon so why skimp. Not saying non-chromed barrels don't have their place, but given the relatively small difference in price to the advantages gained, it only makes sense to go chrome. Lowers are pretty much lowers and even the low end junk can usually be made to run reliably. The same cannot be said for a poorly manufactured barrel, screw up the chamber, the gas port, etc. and you are done.

I know a lot of people build on a budget and use the cheapest kits from the bottom tier manufacturers thinking they're just as good as the high end stuff. Some folks have had very good luck going that route, so I'm not knocking that. For casual plinking they are usually fine and some are more than happy with that choice, congrats. But, I've repaired far to many rifles built with low end kits that have had major problems. After all the usual troubleshooting and parts swaping in an effort to fix them, many end up to be barrel related. It's a hard thing to tell some guy that his new pride and joy will run right after he buys a quality barrel to the tune of $200. And, if he'd spent the extra $50 to $100 bucks and bought a decent kit from one of the better manufacturers that offered a chrome lined barrel to begin with, he would be $100 or more ahead.

Troy and Lumpy, I'm with you................ but what do I know,

Wpns Man
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 3:24:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2004 4:00:13 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 4:06:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 4:27:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2004 10:00:54 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 4:43:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2004 4:44:19 PM EDT by Spooky130]
From bigbore:

2. 5% or AR owners do all the shooting. 95% have them because they are cool, and hardly ever shoot them at all.
Of the almost 1000 uppers I have received in the last months for threading - it is obvious they are not shot often at all. A discolored gas tube is a VERY RARE thing. Most look like they have never had a round through. Most look brand new, and have obvious paint marks where scratches were touched up. Its probably safe to say that 4 out of 10 had some sort of tape, velcro, etc. on the brass deflector to prevent brass marks if that tells you anything.



That observation is really interesting to me... I think I shoot my ARs fairly often - every time I go shooting I take at least one with me... Most of mine don't look barnd new but I don't abuse them on purpose either. But, the last time I went shooting a guy next to me was shooting his new Rem 700 in .300 Ultra Mag - no scope, open sights at all of 25 yards, pretty much wasting ammo and putting big holes in the berm. By the end of the day he was wanting to get an AR - he would be the never shoot it type of guy....

Spooky

Oh, I have a chrome lined barrel on my FN SPR bolt gun in .308 - its a MOA rifle with almost every load I've shot through it, some even down to the 1/2 MOA relm, but I'm a crappy shot that gets lucky every so often!
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 4:54:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 4:57:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
Yes, there is certainly a reason. And it DOES NOT apply to civilians and their rifles 99.99999999% of the time.

Were you last in the critical thinking line?



Those that hunt, or cops that use their ARs on duty, often face similiar conditions. Folks that attend shooting schools will usually shoot regardless of weather conditions. And many people live in areas where humidity is normally at 90% or higher during the summer months. These folks, especially those who live near the coast, are always fighting to keep their guns free from rust.-Troy



Most people who hunt hard or live near the ocean have rifles with SS barrels and/or actions. And they carry a simple, portable bore cleaning system and a little bit of oil.

Psssst, I know about shooting in inclement weather. about 99% of my AR shooting is NRA HP. The only time I have had a match called due to weather was this year at Camp Perry when the targets were blowing off the frames. My non-milspec Rock River has been wet most all day several times a year, and often doesn't get cleaned until the day after. No a spec of rust on that SS barrel. And no need to worry about crap flaking off the inside.

If I needed durability in a rifle for extreme conditions, I'd get it with a SS barrel at least and a SS barrel and action if at all possible.

As for personal attacks, don't incite them by insinuating that those who don't agree with you are stupid, and you won't get one.

I don't live for this site.

Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:05:37 PM EDT
Ok, the dirt on chrome plating.... A lot of this comes from my (late) father who worked for years doing various metal treatments for the aviation industry, including military and Concorde.

He told me that chrome will never adhere fully to steel - witness the chrome plated what-nots on 1950's and 1960's cars which invariably peeled and rusted within a very short time.

To make a successfull chrome job the steel must first be nickel plated, and then chrome on top of the nickel. Its more time consuming and expensive, but the only way to get a reliable chrome electro-plate which will stand up to mechanical stress and exposure to the outside world.

If you don't believe me, go buy a set of chromed wheels for your car (or talk to someone who has bought some) and see how long they last before starting to flake, peel, blister or otherwise rot.

So why does the military chrome plate their barrels and not go for a full nickel/chrome job?

Why chrome at all should be obvious - military rifles will be exposed to all sorts of mis-treatment, including getting water (and worse) in the barrel and no opportunity to clean/dry for days or weeks on end. This WILL destroy barrels - ask any vetran of early Vietnam. A lot of this was blamed on ammo loads, but much was just plain neglect - not in the negative sense, just neglect because they didn't know better, and even if they did, there was little time/opportuity to clean and oil weapons.

They don't use nickel/chrome because (a) its expensive, (b) it requires a much thicker plating in total than just a chrome job, so the bore would need to be oversise to begin with to compensate, and (c) its a complex plating job to get that much plating done EVENLY as would be required in this application.

A chrome only plating is MUCH better than nothing. But like chrome wheels it WILL fail. But the failure will take MUCH longer than it would take if you (for example) got sea-water in your barrel in a hot humid climate and didn't/couldn't clean within a few minutes.

Do YOU need chrome plating?

IMHO, ONLY if you don't/can't clean after each use and definately after exposure to the elements where water (or worse) may have entered the barrel. For general civilian use its a waste of money if you just adopt a reasonable cleaning regime and use CLP or equivalent to coat the bore when in storage.

If its a SHTF gun, and you expect to use it under those conditions - go ahead and get a chromed barrel. If its for target/plinking/home defense use, don't go out of your way looking for a chromed barrel. For target use, avoid it.

Just my 2c worth...
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:13:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:22:25 PM EDT
Industrial hard chroming has a nickel layer underneath it (on steel).
I don't believe that AR barrels have that.

The photo at the beginning of this thread seems to confirm that belief.

Maybe there are different quality chrome platings used on AR barrels - I don't know.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:30:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:31:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Most people who hunt hard or live near the ocean have rifles with SS barrels and/or actions. And they carry a simple, portable bore cleaning system and a little bit of oil.






You're better off speaking for yourself (not "most people"). SS is less than ideal in cold weather, like we get here in UT.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:36:00 PM EDT
Respect is something that is earned, not guaranteed because of a quasi position. I am almost certain that I will pay for this!

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
Were you last in the critical thinking line?




I would think you would be well advised to show a little more respect to a STAFF MEMBER.

Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:37:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Of the 5% I see that were really shot - I'd say half were beat to shit and not cared for at all. Some looked like thay had thousands of rounds through and were never cleaned. Schuster - who does all the machine work wants me to cahrge and additional $10 for every upper that needs to be cleaned when taken apart because they are such a mess.



+10 on the extra $10 for cleaning nasty uppers! That's time your folks have to spend cleaning parts, that they can't be doing something more profitable. GO FOR IT. And I promise that if I send anything to you for work, that it'll be as clean as I can get it. Geeze, isn't that like bringing someone in to your house without even trying to pick up after the party the night before? Yuck! My 2¢, but that's the way I feel.
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:40:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By KingLou:
Okay, so I've been asking this question on several other sites with no satisfactory response: I have several other firearms, but how come no other firearm has the "chrome vs. non-chromes" debate? I mean, does the AR prefer chrome lined bores, chambers, carriers, all the above, for better function?

None of my firearms save one - a pistol - has a chrome lined ANYTHING. Why do so many people insist a chrome lined bore - minimum - is vital for a quality AR???

I might be getting an AR soon, so I wanna answer this question ASAP, because I could save a lot of $$$ by going non-chromed, and therefore get the rifle sooner. Seems like a chrome bore that has the lining come off is alot worse than a plain chrome-moly bore.



Unless you plan on living in the jungle for months at a time w/o cleaning your rifle, getting a chrome barrel is unecessary. Even if the only role your rifle will have is being a defensive tool.

How many people here subject their rifles to the sort of conditions that chrome lined bores were ment to address?

Hardly any fucking few.

Anyone who claims you MUST have a chromed lined bore to have a quality AR is full of shit. Beware what you read here, as there is a lot of "worshiping" of certain people's opinions and no questioning of the dogma is allowed.



Sounds like when comparing "advice" from all the websites around, you are pretty much correct. It seems the original ARs shipped to Nam were made of steel, which most rifles were back then, including the old M-14 and several com bloc weapons. When you have a steel barrel, it is a good idea to have Chrome lining, HOWEVER, nowadays barrels are made of a Chrome-Moly alloy, and the necessity of Chrome isn't there.

So as far as I'm concerned, Chrome is unecessary, unless you have an "original" AR or some other weapon with a steel barrel that is likely to rust.

That makes sense, because the only other weapon I have that is Chrome lined is my steel barreled 1911by RIA. All my other wepons either have stainless barrels or - guess what - Chrome Moly alloy.

Thanks for all your help in getting to the bottom of this!
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:49:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
Were you last in the critical thinking line?




I would think you would be well advised to show a little more respect to a STAFF MEMBER.



RESPECT MY AUTHORITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:50:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brewsky101:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Most people who hunt hard or live near the ocean have rifles with SS barrels and/or actions. And they carry a simple, portable bore cleaning system and a little bit of oil.






You're better off speaking for yourself (not "most people"). SS is less than ideal in cold weather, like we get here in UT.



Which alloy are you talking about?
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 5:55:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2004 5:59:14 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 12/31/2004 6:05:12 PM EDT
buy what fits your bill, I dont have a master card. I like the ease of cleaning a chrome barrel. I treat all my barrels as if they were cheap steel and coat then in oil, always dry patch 2 times before shoting.

Buy what what you want, i'll buy chrom plated ar's for all my ar are used for is 3 gun ipsc style shooting, where all you have to hit is an ipsc tasrget out to 300 meter.

now my CMP rifle is a NM M1A with a med ss barrel, rebuilt by fulton. thats a totally different animal.
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