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Posted: 12/19/2003 6:23:20 PM EDT
In the near future, I will be rebuilding some old M16/M16A1s into either carbines or Commando-length weapons, which would make them a little more suitable for entry work and social engagements. I am going to put flat top uppers on these, regardless, and we always stick some irons (ARMS 40) on there behind whatever optic we mount (usually EOTechs, with some Aimpoints and one Trijicon Reflex out there, somewhere).

As a part-time, apprentice, know-just-enough-to-be-really-dangerous-Armorer-type (got the neat little Colt certificate on my desk at work), and also wanting to be wise with my fellow taxpayer's money, I am strongly considering not pushing to buy any ARMS 40s this time. I have a shelf with a bunch of unused Colt M4 carry handles (left overs from the last bunch of carbines, which got EOTEchs and ARMS before ever leaving for the streets), and I am strongly considering chopping these and using them as a fixed BUIS. I figure that I might try using a Dremel, and if that proves too tough, I can go down to our vehicle shop, where they have some pretty decent tools that I have used to grind, chop and mill in some of my other ill-conceived projects in the past. What is the best cheap way to re-anodize or at least blacken the bare metal after I get done with my ameteurish hack-job on these poor pieces of Hartford metal?

An even better question is, "Should I really be imposing my butchery on the world?" Maybe this isn't such a "good" idea. Any thoughts on this? Any compelling reasons why I should just beg for the extra $90 per unit and buy the AMRS? If I do, what would be a good (and moral, and LEGAL, as in these are government property) way of getting rid of these otherwise useless carry handles? ANy thoughts?
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:40:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 7:44:24 PM EDT by Zardoz]
I'd go ahead and cut 'em. The stuff to blacken the aluminum can be obtained from Brownell's, but I forget what it's called, exactly. If you can secure a side-grinder in a vice, use a cut-off wheel and it'll make a very clean cut; a lot faster than a dremel will. It'll also be easier to make the finished cut look square. When you cut the bottom of the handle & clamping bar off, cut it the same length from the screw as the other end; this'll make sure the screw gives even clamping pressure.


Edit: Use the dremel to round off the edges of the cut. Even if you take your time to do it right, you can probably have them all done in just a couple of hours.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:45:34 PM EDT
Zardoz is right on the money. Save money and cut it, as it ain't no good for much else with all the benfits ya get with a flat top to mount directly to.
Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:52:17 PM EDT
Ask Troy for the pics; the one he has was beautifully done.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:56:12 PM EDT
I didn't get the opportunity to round the edges before this BUIS went in a trade.  

Here ya go.  
[img]http://tnrdgrnr.com/project/MVC-112S.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 8:09:43 AM EDT
All it takes is a hacksaw, since it is just aluminum (except for the clamping rail).  Pneumatic grinders make very fast work of aluminum parts, so be careful or you'll be buying an ARMS #40 to peplace the now useless chunk of aluminum [;)].
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 9:12:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2003 9:13:28 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]
[url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/chopacarryhandle.msnw[/url]


This might help, very informative.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 3:03:45 PM EDT
birchwood casey aluminum black was $8 bucks at wal mart about a year and a half ago and turns bare aluminum black in 1 minute
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 3:20:16 PM EDT
I know what you mean about your mechanics. We are always using our city plant metal guys to creat stuff for our tactical team. We just had them make us some wicked rake and break tools that work great. The have also made a lot of mods to our armored cars that we use. They really enjoy doing stuff for us. (beats working on a garbage truck)

Good luck with your project.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 4:44:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 6:58:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 7:02:57 PM EDT
Some would even say that a fixed BUIS is a good idea for a social rifle mounting an Eotech or M2.

[;)]

[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=15537[/img]

BTW, show us some pics of a whole stack of reworked M16's config'd for street duty!

[beer]

Corey
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 10:52:25 PM EDT
[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17877[/img]

I've done three now and I have to say I like this one the best. Dremel first, belt sander second, and yes be very carefull to not let the power equipment get away from you. Aluminum grinds so quick, you can be way under before you know it. I thought this one was going to end up in that category, but I actually like it better than any of the other with more material left behind. Rock solid but nothing extra not really needed. Cheapo black spray paint after heating up the sight in the toaster oven first has been the best match in finish so far.

BTW Natez. I've read your earlier post before about the surplus gear you've been getting and I think I really hate you for it. [:)] I really could use an DX'd Comp M to repair the one I have that recently went down if you feel like helping out.

Good luck,
Mark
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 7:39:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 7:51:12 PM EDT
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Getting blinded by the flash of a chopped barrel is fun too.
Jack
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 12:35:47 AM EDT
Well, if the guys know the limitations and drawbacks of the shorter barrels, let them have some.  Just be sure they are only using them in environments where the drawbacks don't come into effect and there are teammates with longer barrels to back them up if the situation dictates.  As far as flash, any room in your budget for suppressors, or do you already have some in your inventory?
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 3:40:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2003 3:41:20 AM EDT by knightone]
Have you heard of the [url=http://www.ccfa.com/rifle.htm]CCFA SOPS suppressor[/url] or the [url=http://www.tac-ord.com/MS-556MIR.htm]Tac-Ord MS-556 suppressor[/url]?  They both use modified vortex flash suppressors as QD mounts.  The vortexes would give superior flash suppression for the rifles when cans weren't mounted.  Mind you, I have never personally seen either of these in action so i don't know how good they are or   how sturdy they are.  So, obviously, test the crap out of these if you think this is the way you would want to go.  Oh, if you do test these units, would you mind posting the results on the boards?  I am interested in these, but don't have the funds to just buy them and see if they are any good.  As a dept., they may be willing to borrow a sample for evaluation.  See how I sneaked in a couple of suggestions just to get you to test them so I don't waste my own hard earned money?  Seriously, though, I hope you get your people what they need.  Good luck.
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 5:14:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mk1iii:
[url]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17877[/url]

I've done three now and I have to say I like this one the best. Dremel first, belt sander second, and yes be very carefull to not let the power equipment get away from you. Aluminum grinds so quick, you can be way under before you know it. I thought this one was going to end up in that category, but I actually like it better than any of the other with more material left behind. Rock solid but nothing extra not really needed. Cheapo black spray paint after heating up the sight in the toaster oven first has been the best match in finish so far.

BTW Natez. I've read your earlier post before about the surplus gear you've been getting and I think I really hate you for it. [:)] I really could use an DX'd Comp M to repair the one I have that recently went down if you feel like helping out.

Good luck,
Mark
View Quote


This one looks great. How did you decide where to cut it? Is it hard to cut the thing straight?

Link Posted: 12/22/2003 11:29:13 AM EDT

Lancelot wrote:

This one looks great. How did you decide where to cut it? Is it hard to cut the thing straight?

View Quote


It's about impossible to cut it straight. That's why you make the main cut far away from where you want the finish product to be and sand your way in from there. Maybe 1/2" away from where you want it to end up, but it depends on what tools you use. A fresh belt on a sander can do an 1/2" in about 5 seconds if your not carefull.

I actually traded this CCH and I kinda miss it. [>(]
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 11:46:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez:
or with a VERY high-performance round, these should do just fine. We are currently running with 62-grain Winchester match HP ammo,
View Quote
I'm shuddering just thinnking about using Win 62gr Match to stop determined bad guys.


I can get Q3131 for significantly less (I think about $140 per $1000) ... and I may well go with it as a general-issue round, as it (and other mil-spec M193 loads) seems to consitently perform better than many of the high-speed loads, at least as long as bbl length is sufficient.
View Quote

You want to issue M193 when you're also going to have 11" barrels in the inventory?  Are you nuts?

Get some Black Hills 75gr OTM (Heavy Match) if you can't swing the 75gr TAP.  It works well from all barrel lengths you've mentioned and has much better terminal performance than M193.

Go talk with Doc Roberts at TF - with you being an LEO he can provide you with info to make the right decision.


, although setting things on fire MIGHT be an issue, and we have a long history of starting accidental fires in training
View Quote

Another reason for the Black Hills - its VERY low flash (unlike Winchester Q3131A)
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:49:52 AM EDT
Is 'Black Hills' on your buying co-op?  If so try their 75gr Heavy Match round.

I don't see the Winchester 62gr HP on any of Doc Roberts 'recommended round' lists.  I'll look at home to see if I have any other test results from the Win 62gr HP.

BTW These Winchester rounds ARE on Dr. Robert's 'acceptable for LEO use' list:
Winchester 64 gr JSP (Q3246)
Winchester 69 gr JHP (S223M)

So if you are stuck with Winchester check out the availability of these loads.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:41:14 PM EDT
Hmm one of Dr Robert's tests lists a 60gr Remmington Match with 11.5" of penetration and a 67% fragmentation.  That should do better than the FMJ load.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 7:14:48 PM EDT
CHOP CHOP [chainsawkill]

[img]http://home.att.net/~carbine308/wsb/media/183042/site1013.JPG[/img]

[img]http://home.att.net/~carbine308/wsb/media/183042/site1014.JPG[/img]

[img]http://home.att.net/~carbine308/wsb/media/183042/site1020.JPG[/img]

I ordered some Casey Birchwood "Aluminum Black" from Brownells.  It didn't take particularly well, maybe because I smoothed the metal too much.  I followed the instructions.

I didn't much want the ARMS #40.
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