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Posted: 10/12/2018 10:12:53 PM EDT
So we have talked about China optics. There have been many reasons given to not buy them. Some product based and some based around not funding their war machine. Good reasons.

So... What should we buy if we would have been in the market for that? What is a budget minded, but decent quality optic that doesn't support the enemy?

Not the best. Budget minded and decent.
Link Posted: 10/13/2018 1:13:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2018 1:13:54 AM EDT by funnelcake]
New?? DI Optical RV1 or RV2, or maybe the new SP1 (for a micro-size) when it’s more widely available & their peeps actually update the f’ing website.

They’ve been really responsive/helpful via email but could sell more stuff if somebody in their stateside operation gave a crap about marketing and maintaining the site.

Used?? Aimpoint Pro or MRO.
Link Posted: 10/13/2018 2:38:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By modoc_333:
So we have talked about China optics. There have been many reasons given to not buy them. Some product based and some based around not funding their war machine. Good reasons.

So... What should we buy if we would have been in the market for that? What is a budget minded, but decent quality optic that doesn't support the enemy?

Not the best. Budget minded and decent.
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Vortex/Primary Arms are American Companies. Now if you ordered directly from alliexpress/alibaba I would agree with you about funding their war machine.Both of the American companies design these things with American R&D. They are just made overseas to keep the price point down and to allow average people to have something that is about 3/4 of an aim point or quality scope for a lower price. Also everyone has to start somewhere, because of their initial chinese optics they are now having scopes made in Japan as an example.

Check where your phone, tv, computer, and other electronics are made.

Also what of brands that are U.S. made but when purchased end up supporting leftists/socialists/crooked unions. Just some food for thought.

As for Optics, Aimpoint Pro is a good one, Trijicon MRO as well. I have found lower priced/entry level Eotechs lackluster based on todays technology. I strongly prefer Primary Arms/Vortex/Holosun for my purposes.
Link Posted: 10/13/2018 8:40:13 AM EDT
There were some Leopold scopes that were American made and affordable, but they got very sneaky.

Many of their budget scopes are now made in China so you have to do a lot of research. Buyer beware.
Link Posted: 10/13/2018 12:23:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BillofRights:
There were some Leopold.... Many of their budget scopes are now made in China so you have to do a lot of research. Buyer beware.
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I know they have binoculars and such made over seas, first I have heard about anything in the VX line made over seas. Which lines? Rifleman or VX Freedom?
Link Posted: 10/14/2018 12:43:54 PM EDT
I have yet to find a company that makes scope glass in the USA. If you find one, hell, please let me know. As another person posted, R&D is done in the USA and then the parts are made overseas. Some are assembled here, some are not. Alot of the parts in a scope are made in the USA, but the glass is a question I am very curious about.
Link Posted: 10/14/2018 12:58:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By WantsAnRRA:

I know they have binoculars and such made over seas, first I have heard about anything in the VX line made over seas. Which lines? Rifleman or VX Freedom?
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IIRC, VX-Freedom glass is made overseas, but the tubes are made in Oregon. Final assembly is in Oregon.
Link Posted: 10/14/2018 2:50:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2018 3:00:04 PM EDT by Capt_Destro]
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Originally Posted By sycotik1:
I have yet to find a company that makes scope glass in the USA. If you find one, hell, please let me know. As another person posted, R&D is done in the USA and then the parts are made overseas. Some are assembled here, some are not. Alot of the parts in a scope are made in the USA, but the glass is a question I am very curious about.
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Originally Posted By sycotik1:
I have yet to find a company that makes scope glass in the USA. If you find one, hell, please let me know. As another person posted, R&D is done in the USA and then the parts are made overseas. Some are assembled here, some are not. Alot of the parts in a scope are made in the USA, but the glass is a question I am very curious about.
I read that Primary Arms wanted to establish something in the USA but the EPA has so much red tape it makes it hard/expensive to do so. I'll post a link in a bit.

All of our optics are either made in China or Japan. If any of you are an eccentric billionaire, please convince the EPA to let you spin up an HD optical glass factory here in the USA. Preferably Texas. Please!
We truly hope someone does. Making or at least assembling red dot sights here in the USA is something we have been looking into for quite some time. We want to live in a country that makes things. And, I can't get into details on this, but the obstacles to making that happen are daunting. Frustrating. We can make rocket ships that spin back around and land right back where they started in the USA but we can't make rifle scopes here? NOBODY has US made glass. Not Leupold, not Vortex, not US Optics. When they say "US glass" they mean they did a final polish and applied coatings here, which is impressive enough. But the glass came from overseas first.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Primary-Arms-announces-our-first-lifetime-warranty-micro-red-dot-MD-RB-AD-/124-720277/?page=2
Link Posted: 10/14/2018 5:23:37 PM EDT
Check out our EE forum!
Link Posted: 10/14/2018 6:25:05 PM EDT
I have a few di opticals sights, the rv2 and eg1c.

I am happy with both, they are super robust.
Link Posted: 10/14/2018 6:41:04 PM EDT
Best you are probably going to do is buying from a solid company here. Yeah, China is making money off of them but Primary Arms should be making more, is great to work with, and I believe supports our industry more than just using it as a market to make a profit in.
Link Posted: 10/14/2018 7:07:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Capt_Destro:

I read that Primary Arms wanted to establish something in the USA but the EPA has so much red tape it makes it hard/expensive to do so. I'll post a link in a bit.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Primary-Arms-announces-our-first-lifetime-warranty-micro-red-dot-MD-RB-AD-/124-720277/?page=2
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Someone get the President's ear
Link Posted: Yesterday 10:37:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: Yesterday 10:45:08 AM EDT
Good to hear, Vortex. I've known guys that wouldn't buy any optic that wasn't made in Europe.
Link Posted: Yesterday 11:04:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: Yesterday 11:22:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Yesterday 11:25:40 AM EDT by 762AR25]
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Originally Posted By VortexOptics:
Couple things to note here after watching this carry on for a bit. Take these points as you wish - ultimately, your decision and where you decide to spend your money is entirely up to you. Also worth noting we can only speak to our situation, though it may very well be similar to others' in the industry.

It's already been pretty well beat to death that country of origin is, at best, a very loose determination of overall quality of the product. We hate to even say that, because these days anyone in any country is capable of making an excellent product if they have the technology, equipment and resources. We could throw a couple of magnifying lenses in a toilet paper roll and call it Made in USA, but in the end, it's still a piece of sh*t. Just like someone in China could make the nicest riflescope on the planet if they had the proper equipment and all the R&D, optical design and engineering already done for them - it's just push button at that point practically (And it's also still gonna be pretty damn expensive). Regardless of where the product is manufactured, in our case, the product is designed, engineered and spec'd out here in the USA. These specs are worked out with the factory and product is simply not accepted until it meats the proper quality level for the price point we wish to achieve. It seems like that's something a lot of people forget - almost as though we just say "Hey factory - make us a $____ scope and make it snappy" and then we accept whatever they spit out. Simply not the case at all... (For companies with an engineering/product development department - sorry to say the Amazon company that sells $15 scopes probably doesn't have one of those. Ever wonder why those all look the same with different names?)

As for funding the war machine of another country, it's also been pointed out (And is a good point) that companies like Vortex (And many others) are American companies with American employees who support all things USA. Going overseas for manufacturing is kind of the way things are these days and it's very hard to avoid. Heck - we set out to create the most American Made riflescope on the planet with the Razor HD AMG 6-24x50 (Yes - even the lenses are made in the USA!) and in the end had to get a purge screw from somewhere in Scandinavia and the reticle from Germany. Oh and after all that, it's $2500, so definitely not a high volume product. Very nice, though, you should check it out It still is arguably the most American Made riflescope on the market, and sure, we probably could have eventually sourced those items from the USA, but we're also trying to sell product here in order to stay in business and maintain jobs of over 250 people with families in South-Central Wisconsin. Then there's the products that are made entirely overseas. We get it - why would anyone want to fund their war machine? Well, it's worth keeping in mind that when we make product over there, we're able to make quality optics that don't all have to cost $2500, so more people can buy them. When more people are able to buy them, more people are able to get into shooting, hunting, competition, etc. - All the many things that make America awesome. Oh, and since you're buying them from an American company like Vortex, Vortex is able to pump that money back into R&D to make even newer and more quality products for consumers to enjoy AND fund R&D for exciting new products for OUR military and law enforcement, charitable organizations for veterans, competition sponsorships, salaries for American workers, etc. [Insert circle of life soundtrack]

Hope this helps. Again - it's your money and your right to spend it where and how you please, just figured those points were worth noting. - Jimmy H jchamilton@vortexoptics.com
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I don't think anyone is going to have a problem with a scope that is overwhelmingly American in parts sourced, assembled in the US, but with a few pieces here and there from Germany or Sweden, or even Japan. They make great stuff over there, I love me some S&B, Norma, Vihtavuori, Lapua, etc. The AMG is a great scope at a great price and you have every reason to be proud of it.

However, myself personally, I can never trust a product made in the Philippines or China for serious use. I've seen so so many broken in real life and on the internet and have closely followed the development of optics the past 8 years or so and I've seen nothing in that timeframe to suggest to me that either of those two countries can consistently put out a good optical product. I remember 9 or 10 years ago when no one knew who LOW was (I learned of them on SH around that time) and mentioning that xyz scope was made in Japan caused people to get bent out of shape. Now it seems to be common knowledge that LOW builds scopes for many and "Made in Japan" is a positive thing for an optic (from a quality perspective) and I see references to LOW on this forum all the time (and others) so the optics consumers seem much more informed than even 6 years ago.

Everyone has a different philosophy or usage criteria. For a hunter or someone that sees the range maybe twice a year (or are just uninformed) they can probably be satisfied rather easily with a lesser scope. However, I never understand the "budget" argument. If you can afford a rifle, ammo, and an $800 optic then you can afford a $1600 optic. You just lack the patience to get there if you don't have all the money RIGHT NOW.

Even leaving politics/nationalistic feelings aside I just don't feel like my dollars would EVER be well-spent on a Chinese or Philippine optic. I've owned many from Germany and Japan and will do so again.
Link Posted: Yesterday 12:36:42 PM EDT
If funding the Chinese military is a concern, then Wal-Mart and Amazon are in big trouble
Link Posted: Yesterday 1:04:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: Yesterday 1:35:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By funnelcake:
New?? DI Optical RV1 or RV2, or maybe the new SP1 (for a micro-size) when it’s more widely available & their peeps actually update the f’ing website.

They’ve been really responsive/helpful via email but could sell more stuff if somebody in their stateside operation gave a crap about marketing and maintaining the site.

Used?? Aimpoint Pro or MRO.
View Quote
This. Their stuff is ACTUALLY duty-grade, and not flimsy at all. I now have three, and finally changed the AA battery in my RV-1. Still OK, but around 2 years is a good time to change a battery.
Link Posted: Yesterday 3:06:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By heavymetal762:
This. Their stuff is ACTUALLY duty-grade, and not flimsy at all. I now have three, and finally changed the AA battery in my RV-1. Still OK, but around 2 years is a good time to change a battery.
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Originally Posted By heavymetal762:
Originally Posted By funnelcake:
New?? DI Optical RV1 or RV2, or maybe the new SP1 (for a micro-size) when it’s more widely available & their peeps actually update the f’ing website.

They’ve been really responsive/helpful via email but could sell more stuff if somebody in their stateside operation gave a crap about marketing and maintaining the site.

Used?? Aimpoint Pro or MRO.
This. Their stuff is ACTUALLY duty-grade, and not flimsy at all. I now have three, and finally changed the AA battery in my RV-1. Still OK, but around 2 years is a good time to change a battery.
Great Optics but even heavier than AIMPOINT Pro/Comp M4. The things are built like tanks/seem bomb proof.
Link Posted: Yesterday 7:30:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Yesterday 7:32:26 PM EDT by funnelcake]
I've got an RV1 that's been fantastic. Yeah, it's a little heavy but I don't think much more than the M4 (can't remember weights off the top). I like rotary knobs, but might give the RV2 a shot next.

I just bought one of their SP1's (micro size) for a pistol build (posted in the AR Pistols forum). Funny, I'd been waiting since March for Optics Planet (or anyone!) to have 'em in stock. Never happened, so I ordered from a European outfit. Less than a week later, OP has 'em in stock...well a few anyway! Oh well, I think I would've saved like $14 bucks.

I'll post a review up once it gets some use.
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