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Posted: 9/28/2005 3:29:19 PM EDT
What's really the big deal about these eotechs and aimpoints that cost about the same price as a rifle? I'm sure they're probably a bit more durable, but other than that, what makes them so much better than the cheapies?

What makes it so much better than a hakko or some other cheapie out there?

I got a cheapie 3x dot site on my ruger 1022 and it's held up pretty good even when dropped.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:34:10 PM EDT
Durability.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:35:00 PM EDT
Optics such as EOTechs and Aimpoints are combat proven optics and are built to military standards hence the price tag.


“I'm sure they're probably a bit more durable…………..”


Right there with that statement, you answered your own question.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:41:27 PM EDT
OK, so the main difference is there ability to take a beating, which is pretty important to me also.

I'm just trying to find that balancing point between cost effective and durable enough for what i'd do with it.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:45:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jb241970:
OK, so the main difference is there ability to take a beating, which is pretty important to me also.

I'm just trying to find that balancing point between cost effective and durable enough for what i'd do with it.




It's not what you'd do with it that you need to worry about. Nobody is going to intentionally beat the shit out of an optic. Its the stuff that you have no control over that you need to be worried about. Eotechs in particular come with protective hoods for dings and dents and being dropped, they're water resistant for rain, boating accidents, things of that sort.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:49:04 PM EDT
Less parralax error. The better sites retain zero better under rough use. Less prone to 'wash out' in bright light. Water proof/vapor proof. Still work when it's REALLY COLD. Easier and more consistent to zero. Longer battery life. Compatibility with NVGs. Reduced IR signature from the front. Name brand cool factor. Not manufactured by Chinese slaves who get paid fifty cents a day to build stolen technology.

All that said, some of the "name" red dots are over rated and some of the cheap shit works remarkably well.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:51:16 PM EDT
Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances.
More money - less chance of Mr. Murphy showing up - at least with optics.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:58:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Less parralax error. The better sites retain zero better under rough use. Less prone to 'wash out' in bright light. Water proof/vapor proof. Still work when it's REALLY COLD. Easier and more consistent to zero. Longer battery life. Compatibility with NVGs. Reduced IR signature from the front. Name brand cool factor. Not manufactured by Chinese slaves who get paid fifty cents a day to build stolen technology.

All that said, some of the "name" red dots are over rated and some of the cheap shit works remarkably well.



thanks Bro, that seems to really sum it up.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:22:05 PM EDT
I've been trying to find the red dot that the terminator had in his eyeball. I would ever drop my eyeball, and it would work so well with any gun I wanted to use...

Or maybe I'll just get the Aimpoint...
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:37:13 PM EDT
There's a saying in the Harley community that starts out "If you had to ask..." Personally, I think that if you aren't Ranger Rick and use your weapon as a yearly job-related tax write-off then you don't need the ACOG's or similar devices. If you're using your AR to hunt fuzzy bunny rabbits then a cheaper optic will be plenty fine. I don't doubt the reliability and durability of the high-end optics I just doubt the need for one on maybe 90% of the AR's out there.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:41:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jb241970:
What's really the big deal about these eotechs and aimpoints that cost about the same price as a rifle?




Where are you finding ARs in the $500 price range?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:51:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By jb241970:
What's really the big deal about these eotechs and aimpoints that cost about the same price as a rifle?




Where are you finding ARs in the $500 price range?



How about rifles in the $300 range (EOTech)?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:56:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GetDown_M4A3:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By jb241970:
What's really the big deal about these eotechs and aimpoints that cost about the same price as a rifle?




Where are you finding ARs in the $500 price range?



How about rifles in the $300 range (EOTech)?



Norinco M4gery!
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:52:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:

Originally Posted By GetDown_M4A3:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By jb241970:
What's really the big deal about these eotechs and aimpoints that cost about the same price as a rifle?




Where are you finding ARs in the $500 price range?



How about rifles in the $300 range (EOTech)?



Norinco M4gery!



Even better than that! $30 Advanced Combat Optical Sight (AKA, Walmart red dot scope):


$30 M-4 Tactical Carbine (well, sort of...)



Sorry, gotta go now. I've gotta get my 'battle rattle' on for the tactical squad assault briefing down at the mall. I don't want to be late again cuz taking the bus there sux, dude!
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:00:14 PM EDT
Parallax error is the biggest issue i think.

I'm currently sporting a walther cheapo red dot designed for target rifles, but saving up for a Eotech.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:06:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 6:15:55 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]

Originally Posted By jb241970:
What's really the big deal about these eotechs and aimpoints that cost about the same price as a rifle? I'm sure they're probably a bit more durable, but other than that, what makes them so much better than the cheapies?

What makes it so much better than a hakko or some other cheapie out there?

I got a cheapie 3x dot site on my ruger 1022 and it's held up pretty good even when dropped.



On the EE you can get a good used Aimpoint and mount for about $300-350.

Infantry can break anvils and unravel ball bearings. The cheapies CANNOT sustain that type of abuse. They need someting thats tough, dependable and holds zero. I've bought a few cheapies in my time and learned my lesson. Most of 'em broke or failed to hold zero right from the factory. The rheostats on several werent consistant and one of them failed after a few months. The windage and elevation adjustments on all of them were mushy and imprecise.

The Aimpoint is in a league all it's own. It's been tested up the ying/yang and proven in combat. Not one cheapie can say that. "You get what you pay for" and you'll hear that quite often here.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:26:42 PM EDT
Not stictly about dot optics, but I will give my 2 cents anyway.
I have a friend who no matter how many times he has been burned, still believes in the free lunch. Once upon a time he called me and said he was going to put a dot optic on a S&W revolver chambered in .41 Mag. The optic he was considering was very similar to the one pictured on the Airsoft gun in this thread. He wanted my comment. I told him I thought it was junk. I thought that it wouldn't hold up. I thought that no matter what it cost, it was a waste of money. Of course he argued. One day I was shooting out at our local range and up drives Roy with his wife and kids in the car. He has his .41 Mag with the dot on it. On either shot 4 or 5 the optic came apart with the innards flying all over the place. I didn't want to embarress him by telling him, I told you so. I didn't want to laugh at him in front of his family, but I just couldn't help it.
I have generally never been one to buy cheap stuff. Throughout my life I have been the type of guy to desire the best, and wait as long as nessessary and do what it took to get the good stuff. But, I have also made the occasional mistake. I once spent a pretty decent sum of money putting together a totally tricked out Ruger 10/22. I had read on-line that dispite their inexpensive pricetag, BSA scopes were worth owning. They seemed to have a following among 10/22 shooters. So, I bought one. This 10/22 project took awhile. I didn't take any shortcuts and several times had to wait until I had the money to go on with the project. When I finally got it all done, I mounted the 6-24X BSA and went to the range. This has been years ago, so I don't remember the details, but the scope didn't work. So, after only firing a couple shots, I packed everything up and went home. The scope had a lifetime warranty and I sent it back. A couple weeks later I recieved a brand new BSA 6-24X. This time, the paralax adjustment was frozen. So, I sent that one back. My rifle had been done for months now and I hadn't ever fired it. Back came another new scope which I promptly gave to some other sucker.
I am a sport shooter. My life doesn't depend on my equipment. But, shooting is difficult enough, find the time to shoot is difficult enough. I don't want to spend my shooting time in frustration fighting cheap junk equipment. I don't want to lose a match because of cheap junk equipment.
Let's use some common sense here people. Think about this for just a second. We are talking about a precision optical/electronic instrument. I just can't believe that any reasonable person would believe that some third world sweatshop employing unskilled laborers is turning out good quality precision optical equipment out of plastic and doing it for a tiny fraction of what the state of the art stuff costs.
If this doesn't make sense to you, no offense but PT Barnum had a saying about people like you.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:28:14 PM EDT
The cheapo's have their place. I got one to put on a bushy for range shooting, to see if I liked shooting with it, and to see if it would be easier on my eyes than iron sights. I learned my lesson about flat-tops (or rather not having one, my next AR will be flat-top). I accepted the fact that it probably would not last 300 rounds, and would have some parralex (sp) issues. I have been pleasantly suprised so far. When it breaks, as it inevitably will, I will look for a quality replacement. For what I use my AR for, which frankly is mostly entertainment (ie, shooting for fun), the cheap "famous maker" red dot is sufficient.

Having said that, if I had to depend on this gun every day in my job (not likely in my line of employment, consulting engineering), I would go with quality equipment from the outset.

Your first car wasn't a Jaguar, was it? Heck, even my fourth car is still only a minivan.

RMT
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:55:15 PM EDT
as 444 said I also have to have the nices gizmo out there and also I am gathering funds for my next purchase a 552.I dont need the 552,I just am after the quality.everything I do with my firearms must be top notch,the work,the mods(if any) and any accesories.people at work crack jokes about the money I put into things like that until thier JUNK breaks and I say "thats why".I only plan to buy things once.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:00:03 PM EDT
It all depends on where your priorities are.

I plan to only put my kids through college once....

RMT
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:05:29 PM EDT
Any input on the Halo from Bushnell vs. the EOtech? Looks similar in principal and is around the same price ( $250 vs. $300ish).

Thanks,
Sean
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 8:55:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 8:59:55 PM EDT
Buy quality - buy once.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 9:26:32 PM EDT
two words. parallax free.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 9:33:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By steve-oh:
two words. parallax free.



Actually - eight words: almost parallax free at ranges beyond 50 meters.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 9:33:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zack3g:
Nobody is going to intentionally beat the shit out of an optic.


Link Posted: 9/28/2005 9:36:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wombat_SCSO:
Buy quality - buy once.



Right on the money
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 1:06:07 AM EDT
The adjustments are more precise. If the manual says 1/4" per click, thats what it does, and stays there.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 1:41:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shingaling:

Originally Posted By Wombat_SCSO:
Buy quality - buy once.



Right on the money



Except when your fancy optic craps out. It's not like it doesn't happen. Less often, but even the very best can take a dump on you.

I bought a Zeiss Conquest that cost more than my bolt gun and on the 2nd range trip it came undone and wouldn't hold zero. Shit happens.

Generally, you get what you pay for...but sometimes you get more, and sometimes you get less.

Besides, and I know Lumpy and C4iGrant will agree with me here, we all know the Tacpoint is the best combat optic on the planet.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 3:28:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 3:28:22 AM EDT by Boom_Stick]

Originally Posted By Zack3g:
Nobody is going to intentionally beat the shit out of an optic.


It's not the intentional stuff I'm worried about.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 4:05:43 AM EDT

"............we all know the Tacpoint is the best combat optic on the planet."


Tell me more about this "Tacpoint".
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 4:59:28 AM EDT

Buy quality - buy once.


Oh hell yeah.

I learned a long time ago to buy good or better stuff later rather than buy crap now. It's MUCH cheaper in the long run.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 5:23:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QUIB:
Optics such as EOTechs and Aimpoints are combat proven optics and are built to military standards hence the price tag.


“I'm sure they're probably a bit more durable…………..”


Right there with that statement, you answered your own question.



Do you really know that though? Have you ever beaten on an aimpoint or an EoTech like it's a rented mule to see what it can take? For the type of shooting that most on this board do, a tacpoint or similar is all they need because they just will never beat the optic to the point that it's durability will matter, most won't use the optic in conditions where the ability of the optic to operate while wet covered in mud and grime will matter.

FMD and I picked up tacpoints at about the same time. I took me 6months to completly kill the tacpoint. I put it through conditions most(70%) of the shooters on this board will never put it through including probably most of the LE on this board with the exception of the SWAT type guys. FMD's tacpoint hasn't been exposed to the type of abuse that I put mine through, but he too uses it rougher then the majority of folks on this board would and his is still working even after two carbine classes and various Wisconsin Crew get togethers, which are not exactly light use shooting sessions.

If somone wants to drop the cash on an EoTech or an Aimpoint good for them(I will eventually) especially if their shooting use calls for it. But for most people, a tacpoint type optic may fit the bill at less cost for the shooting they do. Me I'm rough on guns and optics, I think the aimpoint or in my case the EoTech is well worth the cost and maybe one of these days I'll get one. Because of the shooting I do and the rough use my rifles get they make sence. If I didn't shoot them and use them as hard as I do it wouldn't.

Basicly if yer rifle doesn't see a lot of rough use a tacpoint will be just as durable as an aimpoint. I garuntee that I could kill an aimpoint in 6 months just like the tacpoint, but I'm not going to drop that cash just to see what the threshold is for the aimpoint before it dies. I just don't have the money to do that. If I did though, I sure as hell would.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 5:28:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Less parralax error. The better sites retain zero better under rough use. Less prone to 'wash out' in bright light. Water proof/vapor proof. Still work when it's REALLY COLD. Easier and more consistent to zero. Longer battery life. Compatibility with NVGs. Reduced IR signature from the front. Name brand cool factor. Not manufactured by Chinese slaves who get paid fifty cents a day to build stolen technology.

All that said, some of the "name" red dots are over rated and some of the cheap shit works remarkably well.



Those two are not true. The only time I had problems with washout on the tacpoint was at the lower brightness setting. I had the same issue with an aimpoint that a buddy owns. I never once had an issue with a los of zero on the tacpoint even with all the shit I put it through. The water proof vapor proof I have to agreew tih though at least as the tacpoint got beat up it became a problem. Never had an issue with the tacpoint when it was really cold. I burried the thing in snow for 12/24/and 48 hours and it always fired up right away. NV compatability is an issue but they are not made for use with NV anyway same with some aimpoints and eotechs.

Totaly agree wtih yer last statment too.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 5:38:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 5:38:39 AM EDT by wildearp]
I have had an Aimpoint for years, but scored a Tacpoint used/cheap, just to "see for myself".

The main thing I see first off, is that the brightness control is very sketchy. You can easily get the knob between clicks and have it turn off. It also rotates entirely around, both directions, no hard stops. There is no way to turn it off by feel, you have to line up tiny little marks to be sure that it is turned off.

I have run it about ten times, and it has held zero, however, it does not seem to be as accurate as my Aimpoint Comp ML/XD, possibly due to the parallax mentioned above.

The used ARMS 22M68 cost as much as the sight. I will probably sell the entire thing on a rifle package at a gunshow and then purchase an ACOG.

I avoided shooting an ACOG for years, but was finally arm-wrestled into shooting one (non bindon) last week. I tatooed the X-ring at 100 yards, rapid fire, not paying too much attention to the factory Colt heavy trigger pull. I was, to say the least, impressed.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 5:55:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 6:39:27 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Zack3g:
Nobody is going to intentionally beat the shit out of an optic. Its the stuff that you have no control over that you need to be worried about. Eotechs in particular come with protective hoods for dings and dents and being dropped, they're water resistant for rain, boating accidents, things of that sort.



You obviously haven't read through the Tacpoint FAQ




Notice the water, and then notice that the dot is visable at about the 11 O'clockish. The water was trapped between the inner and outer rear lenses. Thats after 24hours of being at the bottom of my pool, after getting a severe beating over 6months. Also notice that the tensioner knob on the QRP is bent. Thats from all the abuse the optic and mount took. even bent like that the optic returned to zero, it died about two days or so after these pics were taken, but not till after I shot it one last time.

Yah some of us do intentionaly beat the shit out of optics. Here are a couple pics of MisterPX and his EoTech.





ETA: In about a week I'll be starting the process of beating the shit out of a S.P.O.T optic. it's another one of the $120-$150 red dot optics.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 6:34:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 6:35:44 AM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By home_with_kids:
The cheapo's have their place.



Yep, in the warranty department of the company who made them, that is if you can reach them.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 1:07:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By home_with_kids:
The cheapo's have their place.



Yep, in the warranty department of the company who made them, that is if you can reach them.



Not every guy on this board is bristling with disposable income, and not everyone takes optics so seriously. Some of us, myself included, have plenty of uses for a "range toy" gun and optic package. Some of my guns are for nothing but fun, nothing at all but for playing with.

I also have some very nice optics (Leopold, Zeiss), and I appreciate them and use them when it matters, but cheap optics can work and do work and I've found that more times than not I'm very pleased with what today's $50 scope is capable of.

The T-168 scope for instance is proving to be very handy, very durable. A superb buy for alot of us.

As for warranty? Well shit.....if it's $50 instead of $800, and you do have some problems with warranty or it's slower than Eotech's CS, is that really a big deal? That saved $750 buys alot of patience. For me, it bought a Bushy M4. As it happens, I sent a Tasco cheapo dot back for warranty once and got a brand new one in 3 weeks. Had a friend get some Tacpoint parts for something he broke, don't recall him having a difficult time.

I am not one of the guys that professes cheap glass is useful for anything but casual shooting, but they DO have their place if you're willing to accept that fact.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 1:58:39 PM EDT
Photoman, thanks for the posts. I feel much better about my purchase now ( never regretted it to begin with ). I bought it as a scope to get me by until I could afford a ACOG, and felt that for the money I couldn't go wrong. I will still get an ACOG but I think that is true testament to the ability of the TacPoint. Best $100 I have spent on an optic.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 2:28:05 PM EDT
I bought a TacPoint blue ring. I mounted it on my bushy while sitting in front of the TV one day, and low and behold, the thing was dead on. Red Dot was sitting right on the tip of the front site post when I looked down the iron sites. Didn't have to adjust one damn thing on it.

Since then, I have shot it on about 10 different occasions. A total of about 400 5.56 rounds and about 1000 .22LR rounds via a colt .22LR kit. The thing was still spot on a few days ago when I showed it to a friend who had dropped by for a beer and Monday Night Football.

I love the damn thing. Aboslutely no complaints from me.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 2:30:07 PM EDT
Don't you all every tire of this endless debate...................................Some buy cheap, some buy expensive.. some get lucky, some learn a lesson, some never do.

All of you save your energy and buy what you want, and lets all work together to repeal all the old Gun laws so I can buy a suppressed short barreled M240 for under 30K......
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 2:37:17 PM EDT
Said it best in another thread:



Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
My 2 cent. I use an ACOG. I used the same ACOG in iraq. That thing got banged up smashed up and blown up and it is still ticking. Trijicon fixed it up to look nice again for me but that is another story. If I bang my weapon up good enough to destroy it I have destroyed my weapon also. I saw many things fail there. I saw boots fall apart. Machine guns get dropped and beet up, uniforms torn. Vehicles blowe apart. Rail systems break off of weapons along with pistol grips and lower receivers coming apart. One time I was even riding down the road and heard a clank clack clack and saw half my 249 stock banging on the side of the truck only heald on by the sling. Lets just say I saw many things destroyed. One thing I did never see was a Aimpoint, Eotech, or Acog ever break or get destroyed.


Link Posted: 9/29/2005 2:41:19 PM EDT
This arguement is seriously old, and I seriously dont care what people buy.


If EVERYTHING about guns (watch the news lately moron?) is just toys and fun, then buy whatever crap you want and shut the fuck up about it.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 2:46:52 PM EDT
As with most things you get what you pay for.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 2:52:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
This arguement is seriously old, and I seriously dont care what people buy.



Yep, I don't give a rat's ass what anybody else buys and what their luck is with what they buy. I know what I buy and luck isn't part of the equation.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:00:08 PM EDT
Yeah got one of those early tacpoint made in japan and so far is held up good however the mount that came with it was crap,so I got a use aimpoint mount and walla the perfect set up for under 200 dollars.......ps. the newones with the blue rings are chinesse shit.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 8:37:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
This arguement is seriously old, and I seriously dont care what people buy.


If EVERYTHING about guns (watch the news lately moron?) is just toys and fun, then buy whatever crap you want and shut the fuck up about it.



LIAR!!!!!


What are you doing in a thread called "Cheap vs. Expensive sights" if you don't really care????

You care buddy. You care. We all care.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 10:53:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsc:
Even better than that! $30 Advanced Combat Optical Sight (AKA, Walmart red dot scope):

www.bsaoptics.com/imagesProducts/Thumbnails/rd_30_sb1.jpg
$30 M-4 Tactical Carbine (well, sort of...)

members.sparedollar.com/resize.aspx?user=medic1959&img=m4-e-4.JPG&size=600

Sorry, gotta go now. I've gotta get my 'battle rattle' on for the tactical squad assault briefing down at the mall. I don't want to be late again cuz taking the bus there sux, dude!



Dude where can I get one of those M4s? My son would love that.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:02:54 AM EDT
I couldnt trust a chinese reddot sight. Just couldnt get myself to do it. So I looked at other options and I cam up russian with the PK-01 V:



This is there newest model that uses AAA batteries. Is completely adjustable for the brightness of the dot. And its actually milspec, russian Milspec which means rugged beyond anything chinese. Very nice overall.

Got it off www.posp.ru
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:14:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:14:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
... ETA: In about a week I'll be starting the process of beating the s*** out of a S.P.O.T optic. it's another one of the $120-$150 red dot optics.



I'll really be looking forward to that thread - I picked one up recently and haven't mouned/used it yet...
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