Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/9/2002 10:45:38 PM EDT
Folks,
Interesting article written by a very well respected gunsmith and Highpower Competitor. Don't ask me who it's about.
www.mikesshooters.com/story.htm
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:50:50 AM EDT
Well they make their own lowers so I am guessing Wilson.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 3:36:04 AM EDT
I was thinking fulton or tanks rife shop, just guessing.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 5:11:23 AM EDT
Almost has to be Wilson. I wonder if they do the same things in their new shotgun business...
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 5:51:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 7:41:59 AM EDT by JonnieGTyler]
Very interesting.

edited to remove unconstrutive comments

But whoever it is, if they do this to one line of product, they do it to all the products in their line.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 6:14:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2002 6:17:09 AM EDT by NightOwl]

Originally Posted By gus:
Almost has to be Wilson. I wonder if they do the same things in their new shotgun business...



Wilson Combat doesn't do anything with M1's/ M14s though.

Also I'm reasonably sure I've seen pictures of their machinery, and it does exist.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 6:36:24 AM EDT
Well I think the article said something about the owner being suprised the gunsmith made his own barrels and the M14 thing also seems to point away from Wilson and more to Fulton Armory.

That kinda sucks because Fulton Aromory pulled an M4 barrel off a guys upper who is now selling it to me.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 6:41:23 AM EDT
Sounds like a bullsh-t story. At a minimum, if this guy is telling the truth, then this mysterious company would have a large number of complaints. I think the guy is trying to drum up business by disparaging other companies. (The way he wrote the review it could be any company).
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 6:48:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NightOwl:

Originally Posted By gus:
Almost has to be Wilson. I wonder if they do the same things in their new shotgun business...



Wilson Combat doesn't do anything with M1's/ M14s though.

Also I'm reasonably sure I've seen pictures of their machinery, and it does exist.




Good point! So I'll restate it: It almost CAN'T be Wilson...

Good thing too - they have an excellent reputation.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 8:16:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Sounds like a bullsh-t story. At a minimum, if this guy is telling the truth, then this mysterious company would have a large number of complaints. I think the guy is trying to drum up business by disparaging other companies. (The way he wrote the review it could be any company).



I have actually met and used this guy before, Mike Orwan. He comes to Camp Perry every year for the Nationals and sets up on Commercial Row. He is a pretty straight up guy. In fact, he is bascially shutting down his business due to a child with a health problem. He is not trying to drum up buisness, as he is turning it away. What I do wish he had done was simply state what business this was as this would not be slander since it is the truth. I kind of rank this type of story with anonymous letters. If you are willing to tell it, tell all the details.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 11:08:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rebel_rifle:

Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Sounds like a bullsh-t story. At a minimum, if this guy is telling the truth, then this mysterious company would have a large number of complaints. I think the guy is trying to drum up business by disparaging other companies. (The way he wrote the review it could be any company).


I have actually met and used this guy before, Mike Orwan. He comes to Camp Perry every year for the Nationals and sets up on Commercial Row. He is a pretty straight up guy. In fact, he is bascially shutting down his business due to a child with a health problem. He is not trying to drum up buisness, as he is turning it away. What I do wish he had done was simply state what business this was as this would not be slander since it is the truth. I kind of rank this type of story with anonymous letters. If you are willing to tell it, tell all the details.



You said it better than I did. I agree 100%. If he is going to make a claim, be specific.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 11:14:01 AM EDT
QCMGR,
As RebelRifle has said, there was no self serving motive behind the story. Mike Orwan is shutting down his shop to take care of his daughter. He is turning away work.

The purpose of the story was not to highlight the shop or make the shop look bad, but rather to let folk know that a high price does not necessarily get you a better rifle.

I have not and will not be asking Mr Orwan who the shop is, but as an example I rooted around and found a shop that was mentioned on this thread sells AR's for 1549 and M1A's for 2000 without the receiver! I got my CLE Upper and Bushmaster Lower with Match Trigger for several hundred less than that. That very same shop had folk coming out of the woodwork complaining about their work and their business practices on Shooters.com in one of the most heated and nastiest threads on that board in recent memory.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 1:09:44 PM EDT
So if thats public on shooters.com who was the thread about over there? You are not telling us ut was them just that there was a discussion on shooters.com
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:42:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blind Rat:
QCMGR,
As RebelRifle has said, there was no self serving motive behind the story. Mike Orwan is shutting down his shop to take care of his daughter. He is turning away work.

The purpose of the story was not to highlight the shop or make the shop look bad, but rather to let folk know that a high price does not necessarily get you a better rifle.



I read his article and I have a few observations:

First, I have seen mechanical geniuses perform miracles with simple hand tools. His point is only valid if the customer did not get what they paid for. People in this sport are not naive. If this shop is performing substandard work, I doubt they will get repeat business.

Second, why post this type of drivel. This type of post has the he-said / she-said type flavor that cannot be taken seriously.

Finally, he gives no indication that the work is value added. Without a reference, he sounds like a guy making his stuff look better at the expense of someone else. What is his objective evidence to support his position?

Does a high price get you a better product? Only if it is perceived as a value to the customer.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 3:52:23 PM EDT
QCMGR,
The notion that this article is not valid because there are some folk that want to pay more for less is contrary to anyone I've met in my chosen sport of Highpower Rifle. The two groups of folk that I feel benefit the most from this article would be the newcomers that haven't a clue what or where to get and might take a glitzy full-page add at face value. The other is the folk with the mentality that more expensive MUST mean better.

You seem to feel that without naming names, this article is not valid. All this article is meant to do is to prompt folk to look a little closer at what you're getting for your hard earned money. Zediker has written similar on his site, and Feamster has written of his nightmarish experience with a certain barrel maker. I can only guess why each did so without naming names as well.

I could not make sense of your statement; "Finally, he gives no indication that the work is value added." thus will not be able to address it.

I've got to ask you, would you in good conscience recommend a shop fitting the profile to a friend of yours? Would you yourself be purchasing an AR from such an outfit?

Knowlege is power. Ask the questions until you're satisfied, then make your informed choices. All this article did was highlight the fact that shops like that are out there.

Link Posted: 11/12/2002 5:17:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 5:33:42 PM EDT by QCMGR]

Originally Posted By Blind Rat:
QCMGR,
I could not make sense of your statement; "Finally, he gives no indication that the work is value added." thus will not be able to address it.


My statement is based on the principle that people are dissatisfied when they perceive they have been cheated. A Yugo for $5,000 is a rip-off. A Yugo for one dollar is a good deal. In this case, did the work performed result in a better rifle? If it did, even if it was not a good value, is still an improvement. Some people buy Colt's because the perceive them to be a better value although a Kimber may be better. The bottom line, the author did not provide objective evidence that the work was defective. (It may have been over priced, or even substandard in some respects, but was it "bad work".

I've got to ask you, would you in good conscience recommend a shop fitting the profile to a friend of yours? Would you yourself be purchasing an AR from such an outfit?

Based on the article I could not make an informed decision. It sounds bad, but I do not know if it is true.

Knowlege is power. Ask the questions until you're satisfied, then make your informed choices. All this article did was highlight the fact that shops like that are out there.


You are correct that knowledge is power, but the author did nothing to clarify or expand the body of knowledge on this site. If all he wanted to demonstrate is,

" All this article did was highlight the fact that shops like that are out there."
Then why not just say, "A good shopper bases their purchase on value, not dollar amount and high price does not equal a good product.

I think the article is a cheap shot. If he is truly concerned about someone making unsafe rifles, he has a responsibility to warn his fellow marksman.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 5:38:28 PM EDT
I've read the article also. I know Mike Orwan also. I know what he is going through. He is definitely not drumming up business. But simply pointing out that the cover is not the book. A good website and lots of glitter and salesmanship dont' mean the end product is good or worth the cost. And that often you can get better work for less money. After all its not the glitz and advertising that makes winning guns. Its the work of the real gunsmith that makes winning guns. Those folks seldom advertise because word of mouth keeps them busier than they want to be.

The purpose of the article is blind rat states. Be aware of what you are getting. Ask alot of questions. The particular company that I am sure this is offers "custom" work. When in essence they charge for custom and more and you get an assembled parts gun. One that I can put together just as well if not better here at home. And mine will be as accurate also. And as well made.

Basically the fight that went on at shooters.com was that Fulton offered custom gunsmithing. When in fact they were so far behind the AR15 curve and were so far from custom that it should have been criminal to post what they did. They don't offer custom gunsmithing.

Beware of what you buy. Research well. In our game of highpower shooting you'll do well to ask the top shooters what they use and their experiences with the gunsmith. The top gunsmiths in the game shoot the competition and understand what is needed, why, and know how to make it work the best it can.

xman
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 11:55:23 PM EDT
QCMGR,
How about looking at it another way;
If I may ask, who did the work on the AR you compete with? And how did you come to decide on that AR Smith?
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 12:36:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blind Rat:
QCMGR,
How about looking at it another way;
If I may ask, who did the work on the AR you compete with? And how did you come to decide on that AR Smith?



At my level my gun shoots better than me. In the future I would look at Tippie or ask board members. I do not disagree, I just think it would be better to know who he is referring to.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 11:32:40 PM EDT

At my level my gun shoots better than me.

...as it should be. I am a believer in the school of thought that Highpower is filled with enough variables (the biggest of which is the shooter) that you should eliminate all that you can. With AR's, the rifle is an easy variable to eliminate. Even a Marksman can benefit from a sub moa rifle.


I do not disagree, I just think it would be better to know who he is referring to.
Ahhh. The core issue comes out. Again, the purpose of the article was to prompt folk to look closer at what they're spending their money on and to illustrate that you're not always getting what you think you're paying for - this shop just happened to be one of the biggest offenders. I know of some good folk that have fallen for such "tourist traps". They did feel stung when they discovered they didn't have to pay what they did and will be the first to NOW recommend against buying from such a shop. In a free market economy, they CAN charge what the market will bear. But we in turn CAN arm folk with information to make wise purchases.
Top Top