Bought a Bushmaster Carbon 15 a month before the '08 election.  Finally shot it today (yesterday now I suppose)...Most fun I've ever had with my clothes on! (haha)  

But seriously, I do have a couple of concerns about my popped cherry.  Shot some Federal "100 VALUE PACK" 223 55gr FMJ rounds I got at WMart a couple of years ago.  Certainly nothing exotic.  Rifle has a std A2 birdcage flash hider & 16" barrel.  I realize I'm closer to my rifle shot than any other rifle on the range, and I've been helping my boys learn to shoot an S&W M&P 15-22 since we joined the local range last week....But I swear this rifle sounded like a freakin cannon going off, it kicked my shoulder like a 12 gauge and it shoots a FLAME 1-2 feet out every shot (from my perspective that's what it looks like anyway).

I've watched online vids of Carbon 15s and they don't seem anything like this rifle.  I don't see any flames and they don't look like they kick that hard.  I've shot a 12 gauge since I was 10 yrs old.  I had this rifle butt (std adjustable plastic) tight in my shoulder area and after only 70rnds the top of my pec is pretty beat up and bruised...Like I was shooting a shotgun instead of a 223.  Don't get me wrong.  I wasn't screaming in pain or anything.  In fact, I kept loading that MagPul up and emptying it. ("I ain't got time to bleed" - Jesse, the Body)

1)  So should an AR with a flash hider be throwing a 1-2 ft spark at every detonation? (I'll get a pic or 2 next time we shoot)  Is that unusual?

2)  After emptying 70rnds in about 20min (the final 20rnds in a little over 1min) the barrel got hot as fire!  In fact, I didn't know what to do with the rifle.  We were leaving the range, but the Bushmaster hard shell case has egg crate foam in it and I seriously wondered if I'd get home and find that foam melted all over the barrel.  Decided to let it cool down about 5min while I swept casings and loaded the range bag, etc.  Once we got to the car, I took it out and laid in on a towel (without the barrel actually touching the towel) and it was still warm when we got home 15min later.  Should the barrel get this hot with only what I consider minimal use?  Obviously our 22 is stone cold after 100 rnds...But this barrel is literally smokin hot.

That's it!  Did take the wife to a Margaritas & Machine Guns Groupon last year (shot the M16 BEFORE the margaritas you know...haha) and put 150 rounds through the full auto M16 rental and didn't have a mark on me...Probably could've shot another 500rnds with no bruising.  I swear it didn't have the kick this C15 does...

I'm interested in and appreciate any feedback about this...Even if it's just, "Hey! Welcome to the world of AR-15s!"

Welcome to the site.

Stab in the dark here. Does your ammo box actually say .223 REM or 5.55mm? 5.56mm tends to be loaded a bit more "hot" and might account for additional recoil especially if the M16 you shot before was using softer loaded .223 rem. Just a wild guess. Even if true, there shouldn't be such a difference that your Carbon would recoil like a 12gauge.

Another suggestion, you could be holding the rifle incorrectly. Maybe there was a gap between the buttstock and your shoulder resulting in repetitive "hits" on your shoulder. I could see this if you were preoccupied with the muzzle blast and you were holding the rifle out in front of you in a flinching manner.

I know you've shot guns before so I don't mean to condescendingly suggest you're inexperienced. Just trying to drum up reasons why you experienced the bruising.

ETA: grammar

Yeah, I know they've got a bad rep.  It didn't help that I got home & started googling and ended up watching "M16 blows up in kid's face"...I was certainly concerned it could fail while at the range.  Didn't think about the cheap ammo causing the big flash.  Gonna try some Black Hills 223 next time we go.  Also prolly rent a Colt or S&W AR there and shoot it for comparison.  Hot barrel still worries me.  I didn't think it should get that hot with so few rounds through it.  Thanks for your input!

Recoil of a 12 gauge? Even with 'hot' 5.56 loads I don't really see how that's possible...

However, yeah OP. Definitely save up for a nice Colt LE6920 rifle, Windham Weaponry, or FN-15 carbine. I've never held carbon fiber rifles with very high regard. Between their carbon fiber upper, lower and 'pencil profile' barrels.

Hey, thanks for the info...Confirmed the ammo is 223 REM.  And I'm not offended.  I've shot a bunch of guns in my days but this was the first AR...So yeah, I am a newbie on it.  And I think you're right about holding it wrong.  I've actually got a freakin cataract forming on my right "shooting" eye. It's not a big deal with a pistol or the 22 rifle and I've just started using my left eye, holding the 22 southpaw.  If I started shooting a shotgun like that, I'd prolly be beat up even worse.  Didn't even think twice about it with the 22.  Shooting the AR lefty didn't even bother me, other than the bruising.  Maybe I can get a pad for the stock at the range and wear a thicker shirt and focus more on the hold.  I still say this thing kicked way more than it should.  Wife shot the M16 in full auto, but I wouldn't let her shoot this...Don't want her to quit on us after only a week you know?

OK...Maybe 20 gauge.  Certainly more than a 410.  Of course I never shoot anything more than bird shot through my 12 gauge anyway, so that's my comparison.  I do believe it would've knocked our 10-yr old a couple of steps backwards, if not right on his butt...And he's pretty sturdy for 10.

I do check SG every day looking for a decent deal on an upgrade.  I know I bought entry level.  And funny you mention WW.  I think those are the same guys who prolly designed & built this C15 at BM, if I heard the story right.

Never been so afraid of a firearm and enjoyed shooting it so much at the same time as that Carbon 15 yesterday.  It was pure adrenaline...

Compared to a M16 your rifle is much lighter wich will result in a more kicking rifle.
A pencil barrel will get hot much quicker than a heavier barrel but will cool down quicker also.

Barrels get scalding hot after only a couple mags.  No worries.  Flash sounds excessive but is not rifle related out of a 16" barrel.  A2 is an effective flash hider.  Kick sounds excessive.  Might be over gassed from factory or just a function of the rifle's light weight.  Consider a muzzle brake with lower flash ammo.

You bought this gun in 2008, and just now shooting it?!

+1
my thoughts exactly.

+2

Carbon 15s are pretty light, so you will have more felt recoil on that rifle than other AR variants.  The value pack ammo also probably doesn't have any flash retardant in it, so you're going to see more unburnt powder leaving the rifle.  

Either way, enjoy.

Thanks guys!  Yeah, just now shooting it...Sounds lame I know.  Bought it for SHTF and although it got close in fall '08, no SHTF.  So now it's going to become a "regular" range shooter.  My sons were all too young to range them back then also.  But we've already made 3 family trips to the range in first 2 weeks, so story has a happy ending!  Lots of fun!!

See, that's why I came here and posted.  Never crossed my mind about the lighter weight amping up the recoil some...Makes perfect sense.

Not sure what a pencil barrel is...Lightweight & cheaper material compared to std Colt AR or M16?  

Think I'll be starting off with the C15 now instead of shooting it last.  Give her some time to chill.  Thanks again for all the input...

OP, pick up a box of 12gauge slugs next time you are at Wal-Mart

Windham Weaponry is the 'old' Bushmaster as I like to say. The Bushmaster of today is more like buying a Remington rifle, since they got bought out by them and moved most of their employees and equipment there. WW is pretty much most of the old guys who started the original Bushmaster and bought the old facility back.

However, since you said that you've had this thing since '08, that still makes it an 'old' Bushmaster. Either way, I'd recommend a higher quality rifle. You'll enjoy it far more than the C-15 rifle and it will bring many more years of durability and enjoyment.

Hey guys...Went to the range today and got some pics of the fire shooting out of this monster.  One of my sons was shooting it and you can see the fireball maybe 10-12 feet downrange and fairly close to hitting the zombie target in the next lane.  This is with a birdcage flash hider installed!  Same cheap Federal "Value Pack" .223 ammo as last time.  I will say it's a real crowd-pleaser at the range...Sounds like a cannon plus shoots a fireball downrange.  Not too good in a SHTF situation.  But what more could you ask for at the range?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fDeQHaoc4sc/Ut3Aqx1cDWI/AAAAAAAAAAc/G9GbzawkL5k/s1024/fireball.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-aw1GsjYXTRM/Ut3AvKAisXI/AAAAAAAAAAk/9nhS0wsyHHE/s1024/fireball2.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aw5lxFKu3zg/Ut3AzJxYUzI/AAAAAAAAAAs/7qIOREofI0Q/s1024/fireball3.jpg

First timer at posting pics here so it may take me a couple of times to get it right...

Dude.  If nothing else you take cool pictures

 

WOW, I athought you meant the pistol Version, which the fireball is normall...with 223, its a giant flash like a Giant torch, with Mil-Spec 556, Its a giant Flame like a Fireball.

Never saw that much flash on a rifle but those Carbine-15's have a shorter body, dont they??

Normally Carbon 15s shoot broken parts, so yours is good.

ziiiiiing

honestly, that looks like one of bushmasters blast enhancing muzzle brakes.  If it is, in fact, a brake, then you are definitely going to get more flash and concussion off of it.

As for the flame, i would try different ammo.  It might also have something to do with shooting at an indoor range as the air system is constantly sucking air out to keep people from getting sick from all the guns shooting. I've personally have only shot handguns at an indoor range, and did notice more flash than normal.  I also notice when i try to pull the door open at the range, i have to put my body into it because of the slight vacuum in the room.  

As for the recoil, maybe your rifle is overgassed and the buffer is slamming the end of the reciever tube extra hard??? You can try a heavier buffer and/or heavier spring.  Or replace your front sight gas block with an adjustable gas block.  

Also, i would check google maps and join a gun club.  It's outdoors, but most have covered benches.  It's also much much cheaper than an indoor range.  Member dues are usually about $100 a year, as opposed to the $8-$12 an hour at an indoor range.  Also the clubs have pistol leagues and programs for younger children to let people use their guns for something fun instead of just going to a range.

Thanks man!  Can't take credit for the first two...Wife took them.  She done good!

Maybe so...But even if I can't hit anything 2 ft in front of me, Zombie Flambe is not a problem!

You're right!  The ventilation is really good at this range...Best I've ever been to in fact.  The vacuum is noticeable when opening the door.  Probably enhances the flash.

Is overgassing dangerous?  I will say this rifle scares the crap out of me.  Prolly a combination of the big kick, sound & flash plus reading bad stuff about Carbon-15s online.  So far it's performed well.  Shot 100+ rounds of cheap ammo with no failures of any kind.  It's fun to shoot but I don't want to spend an evening picking carbon fibers out of my skin if it explodes, if you know what I mean.  Wish I never would have watched that "M16 blows up in kid's face" video...It's made me paranoid.  Hopefully it's just irrational fear...

We actually joined the indoor range for a year.  If things continue to go well and the boys are interested in moving to the next level, they do hold competitions at this indoor range.  So I'll have a good idea about joining a club in a few months.  Even if they aren't interested, I may join one myself.  Thanks for the tip!

Holy fireballs, Batman!
I don't believe that my brother's Saiga .223 with no muzzle device throws that much fire... even at night. Are you certain that it's an A2 birdcage? I would expect a C15 to come with one, but that looks excessive to me, regardless of the ammo, and I've shot the cheap Fed stuff. Never seen anything like that out of my 16" Middy with an A2.  
As previously stated, I would check a number of things in regards to the rifle kicking your butt. It is about as light-weight a factory rifle as they make, so you have to consider that this thing can easy get pushed around by the light-hitting .223. Look into a heavier buffer and possibly the spring. It may be over-gassed and with a very lightweight rifle, carbine buffer and standard spring, much more of the recoiling forces are reaching your shoulder than should be.

Welcome to the AR and the forums. Nice to see a family out at the range together.

Bawhahahahahahaah! Thank you, I needed that today. OP in all seriousness I think your rifle is fine. When I shoot XM193 from my 14.5 and 14.7 inch barrels, the result is the same, maybe even a bigger flash/flame. Your good to go bro...

Thanks for the reassurance!!  A couple of more trips to the range and I'll relax...

Also learning quickly that a Carbon-15 post means someone will be quick with a joke, or to light up your smoke around here (haha).  No problem.  I've got a sense of humor.  In fact, I'll give you another chuckle from a Newbie Fail:

Was all fired up at the range y'day and ready to fire the C-15.  Popped the Magpul in nice & tight, hit the bolt release and BAM!...Mag fell out on the floor.  Checked it over, looked good so popped it back in.  This time pulled back on the charging handle, let it rip and BAM!...Magazine fell out again.  I'm like, "Don't tell me this plastic mag has already worn out!"  Checked the ammo again, thought maybe I better take a round out...Voila!  Loaded perfectly...

So I *guess* I overloaded the mag....Or maybe something just wasn't packed in it quite right.  Funny thing is Range Guy checked my ammo before entering and put the round back into the mag like it was no big deal.  I mean, it DID fit...It wasn't like I had to break anything to fit that final round in it.  

(Now prepares self for inevitable "that's what you get for putting a plastic mag into a plastic rifle" joke).....

Yea, i think the slight vacuum may cause the powder to burn slower.

As for overgassing,  i dont think overgassing will cause any saftey concerns.  It just means your gas hole is overdrilled.  Easiest way to tell is by seeing where your brass ejects.  Theres a chart somewhere that shows the optimal ejection trajectory.  You want to set you buffer spring/weights to try to eject at the ideal spot.

Holy crap those are some good pics. What camera are you using?

Find an outdoor range and try the same thing, just as an interesting experiment but i think the other guys have u squared away here.

When you put the mag in, give it a smack on the bottom.  When I first started dealing with AR's, I had the same thing happen.  You think it's locked in, but it's not.  Just use your palm and give it a bump.

I am still curious about the recoil though. It shouldn't be very hard. The fire ball is similar to when I shot a sbr (short barrel rifle) that a guy at my range owns. It had quite the fire ball especially visible around dusk. But maybe take a video of the recoil?

Pics were easier than it looks.  About 3 years ago I picked up a Sanyo Xacti (VPC-PD2BK) HD pocket camera/camcorder (don't even know if  they make it anymore).  We hadn't upgraded to smartphones yet so I wanted something pocket size to have handy.  Turns out it does a wonderful little thing.  Shoot some HD video and when you review it on the rear screen, you can pause the video and move it frame by frame...Then when you find the exact frame you want, you push the PHOTO button and it saves that frame as an actual photo file!  So while I don't use it for much now except taking eBay photos, it's pretty freakin awesome when you're trying to capture that winning buzzer beater or muzzle flash etc.

Makes you look like a genuine Photo Hero without needing a $3k camera or having to download and edit video on a PC to find a particular frame.  What's really nice is I didn't even know it did that when I bought it!

Please. The HVAC system in the building has not a darn thing to do with the muzzle flash. I can't say what is going on with the rifle but I have never seen a muzzle flash like that out of any AR15 before. It looks like 'Hollywood' blanks that are laced with flash powder for the big muzzle flashes. The only thing I can come up with is the 'cheap' .223 uses a different propellant than any .223/5.56 I've fired or seen fired.

Not necessarily, sometimes loading full 30 rounds in a mag, with the bolt closed,  makes it a little hard to seat the magazine properly. Most will just take one or two rounds out, like you did, all will be well in the world again. Or, you can lock the bolt back, insert the full mag and slap the bolt release.

Do that, but also give the magazine a tug (like you're trying to pull it out of the well) after seating it.  The tug confirms whether it is in fact engaged on the mag catch.

Pmags are some of the best mags made, but it is possible to load them with 31 rounds.  They typically won't seat under a closed bolt if you managed to get that 31st round in.  Be careful not to load more than 30.  Many download all of their mags to 28 to make them easier to seat on a closed bolt.  It is somewhat less "necessary" to do that with Pmags than GI mags, but it does make it a bit easier to seat a loaded mag.

That muzzle flash is unreal.  One of the guys I shoot with loves obnoxious comps, and I don't think I've ever seen a fireball like that from his rifles, even at dusk.  You got your hands on some funky ammo.  You should save some for the 4th of July....

That fireball is impressive!  I have a C15 and have never had that experience. Nor does mine have recoil anywhere near what you experienced. I have been shooting Federal XM193 and PMC x-tac. Both in 5.56.  Very pleased with my C15. Hope you figure yours out.

You're right...This isn't an A2 birdcage.  I thought it was and some models of C-15 did come with them...But did some research and this is a Carbon 15 Model 4 Carbine.  According to the older catalog description, it has a:

14.5" M4 Profile Chrome Lined Barrel - 1 x 9 twist - with pinned/welded Izzy Compensator

I snapped a couple of shots of the barrel and in the first one, it looks like there's a pinhole near the middle of the photo.  However, I looked it over with magnifying glasses and a flashlight and it's just a surface scrape (i.e. it's not causing the big flash).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_OF68ZPkCIk/UuBJLIaaHsI/AAAAAAAAABM/ZPPmw6jtLgk/s1024/SANY0194.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-90iPzQJJhX8/UuBIvhg8lCI/AAAAAAAAABE/oMUzo2NbYSA/s720/SANY0193.JPG

There seem to be different versions of the Izzy Suppressor/Compensator, including an Izzy Muzzle Brake.  Or maybe it's an "Izzy Flash Magnifier"?  (haha)

What's really funny is I just found someone else going through this same exact thing 8 yrs ago (blinding flash...is it a suppressor or a brake):

Bushmaster "Izzy flash suppressor" doesn't!

I'm pretty sure this is the Izzy Suppressor/Compensator...3 gas ports and a closed bottom.  It doesn't seem to do much flash suppression, but does quite the opposite!

You make it sound as if it's just a normal HVAC system, like it's all part of the heating and cooling of the range.  Newer shooting range building regulations require a dedicated air movement and filtration system.  It's all designed to work so people won't breathe harmful lead.   It requires roughly 10% more suction than filling, which by rough calculations would give about -1.47psi less than atmospheric.  Design also calls for a slight 50-100fpm air velocity towards the end of the range.  As you can see in the picture below, that entire unit is just for moving air, it's a giant blower fan and filtration catch system.  I'm not saying the slight vacuum is the cause of the excessive flash, but may exacerbate it.  






http://www.nafahq.org/wp-content/documents/NAFA_Firing%20Range_Guideline.pdf
http://www.actiontarget.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Ventilation-cutsheet.pdf

Shot 30 rnds of Federal American Eagle 55 Grn FMJ "100 Round Value Pack" yesterday.  Technically, it's still Federal Bulk ammo...But I picked it up this past summer and it's different from the ammo we shot that produced the original fireballs.  A couple of pics with the new ammo:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fr9CgKuWuEU/UuZSLt_0fzI/AAAAAAAAABc/FuocrvjCjU8/s1024/fireball4.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bErK0QrRi6o/UuZSPg-1kqI/AAAAAAAAABk/TUKsUqvBYSY/s1024/fireball5.jpg


It's still throwing fireballs, but they don't seem to be quite as massive as before.  I think the IZZY Flash Suppressor and cheap Federal ammo is responsible for 90% of the flash.  Read through archives (some on this site) where the IZZY was doing this a few years ago.  Since this is an older Bushmaster M4 (bought Aug of '08), it has one of those IZZYs on it.

Thanks for all the input!  I still say this rifle is a BLAST (literally!) to shoot...Sounds like thunder, shoots fireballs & kicks like a rented mule.  Contrary to popular opinion on Carbon 15s, I think I'll keep her!  

Its not the muzzle attachment or the hyped-up ventilation in the building. You could fire it in a wind tunnel and it would create no more or less flash, but wind speed of 20 mph or higher probably would blow the flash in the direction of the wind. That could not be taking place at an indoor range. If a wind that strong were being created inside the building, paper, targets and hats would be flying all over the place. You have what looks like a good set-up. Its the ammo. I wouldn't worry about it or change anything. Shoot it all up and get something else next time.

I guarantee a Vortex or even A2 FH will work much better than that muzzle device. I have a 10.5" that I've fired all manner of cheap ammo through with nothing like that coming out the end. Even my braked 16" puts out but a flame kernel compared to that.

Some pads for your butt:
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?usersearchquery=slip+on+ar-15+recoil+pad&itemsperpage=24&newcategorydimensionid=17116

Thanks for the tips guys!  Popped the PMag in Sunday and it clicked.  Gave it a whack on the bottom and then it REALLY clicked and seated.  Tugged on it just to make sure.  Got too used to popping in 22lr mags to notice that there is a difference with the AR.  No more embarrassing "Oops...Yeah...That was me dropping the mag out of my rifle" moments at the range!!