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Posted: 4/16/2007 8:50:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 9:08:36 PM EDT
[#1]
How'd your rifle do?  Did Vickers change your lubing technique or did you have it spot on when you got there?
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 9:19:41 PM EDT
[#2]
That DPMS....I bet it has too shallow or too tight of a chamber....IIRC Pat Rogers detailed these about a SWAT team that had the same problems.  
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 9:24:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 9:56:11 PM EDT
[#4]
Classes like these will definitely seperate the wheat from the chaff.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 9:58:09 PM EDT
[#5]
But people keep telling me that DPMS is great.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:00:40 PM EDT
[#6]
I'm surprised the LMT malfunctioned, see any Bushmaster's?
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:09:06 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:11:28 PM EDT
[#8]
I would not be suprised if the LMT had a key/tube strike.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:12:52 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:
I'm surprised the LMT malfunctioned, see any Bushmaster's?


Yeah...which ones ran without a hitch?  
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:19:19 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:
I would not be suprised if the LMT had a key/tube strike.


I wouldn't either. That's why I need that MRP at an ultra low price... Being that it's failure prone
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:21:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Still looking for an MRP?

I heard you have a 6.8 barrel....

I will call you tomorrow.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:51:15 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
DPMS
Eagle (aka Armalite)


Hmmm, the two brands that I always recommend against...surprise!

LMT doesn't surprise me either. After my issues with their BCG, I'm don't trust their other products.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 12:29:08 AM EDT
[#13]
I saw a Colt AR completely take a shit (over and over) at a class I attended in Pittsburgh last year. A Bushy kept sticking M855 cases.

Know what that means? Diddly shit.

My cobbled-together franken-Stag (with no other known parts of any quality) has never failed during a class or match. Ever.

Know what that means? Diddly shit.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 4:10:38 AM EDT
[#14]
The AR10 issue sounds exactly like MY AR10 issues. With three separate AR10s. Gets hot, stops working.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 5:21:24 AM EDT
[#15]
The LMT MRP may have a loose gas key on the carrier, in which case it's not the MRP's fault.  Remember the OP didn't examine it, so we may never know.

The various weapons went down but there was no diagnostics performed on them, all we know is the results but not how they came to be, therefore it's unfair to pass judgment on any.  
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 9:31:24 AM EDT
[#16]
They had to banned Bushmasters, to many clients saying it wasnt fair for them, bushmasters never have any problems.

DPMS?


TG
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 9:33:29 AM EDT
[#17]
I'd like to know for certain what the issue was with the MRP.


Quoted:
The various weapons went down but there was no diagnostics performed on them, all we know is the results but not how they came to be, therefore it's unfair to pass judgment on any.  


Thats just silly.

It only makes sense to rashly generalize a given manufacturer's product by way of a single episode, involving a single weapon, without knowing exactly what happened.

I saw a 2500HD on the side of the road on my way into the office this morning. There was some smoke coming from under the hood, so now, I'll never buy another Chevy.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 9:40:19 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:
I saw a Colt AR completely take a shit (over and over) at a class I attended in Pittsburgh last year. A Bushy kept sticking M855 cases.

Know what that means? Diddly shit.

My cobbled-together franken-Stag (with no other known parts of any quality) has never failed during a class or match. Ever.

Know what that means? Diddly shit.


A man after my own heart. In fact, this may be the post of the year.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 9:55:01 AM EDT
[#19]
gs430, just curious, but which BCG were you having issues with and what was wrong with it?
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 10:34:36 AM EDT
[#20]
My take on rifles that fail in class.


Most of these rifles have never been ridden hard before.  Most are not properly maintained/etc.

You should at least have 2000 rounds through the rifle you plan to use in a class.  Not to mention this rifle should experience the worst conditions and the best of the weather and elements.  

You should also find what ammo works and what doesn't.

You should have spare parts on hand (Bolt, springs, extractors, firing pins, etc.)


I don't care what brand rifle you have, if you haven't put it through the tests before it runs a class....you're taking a big chance of your rifle failing you.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 11:02:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Please, don´t let this thread turn into a pissing contest.

I´d really like to know what kind of drills are done in those courses of fire which makes your rifle melt and parts fall off.
Seriously, I´m really interested.

MN
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 11:19:16 AM EDT
[#22]
Larry is the frickin' heat!  If you can ever attend a Hackathorn-Vickers class as well, do so.

I have run a Bushmaster for a Rogers, multiple Vickers classes, Howe and Hackathorn courses/training. The only time I had a problem is when my XM193 ammo would blow a primer and the primer would jam things up.

My solution? Don't use that ammo for training courses or anything else that's serious.

My BM is a late '90's one, so it was before the QC issues.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 11:26:17 AM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 11:48:11 AM EDT
[#24]

You should have spare parts on hand (Bolt, springs, extractors, firing pins, etc.)
 Or better yet, a spare weapon ready to go.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 12:01:22 PM EDT
[#25]
I've seen several malfunctions that could not be cured with normal spare parts or without specialized tools. Destroyed keys, gas tubes and fire control groups, etc.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 12:19:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Gee, and all I take to class with my Ak is ammo and mags....hmm.....I guess I'm missing something?
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 12:26:20 PM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:
Gee, and all I take to class with my Ak is ammo and mags....hmm.....I guess I'm missing something?

Probably the target
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 12:27:19 PM EDT
[#28]
Nah, mine will do 3 MOA which out to 200 yards is well, minute of man....good enough.


Are the Pink Marpat followers now mandatory for a reliable AR magazine? Or was it the green ones, or the gray ones.....I forget....Lol.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 12:53:06 PM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Gee, and all I take to class with my Ak is ammo and mags....hmm.....I guess I'm missing something?

Probably the target


Link Posted: 4/17/2007 1:37:37 PM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have run a Bushmaster for a Rogers, multiple Vickers classes, Howe and Hackathorn courses/training. The only time I had a problem is when my XM193 ammo would blow a primer and the primer would jam things up.


But what do you know, you also use an Eotech


So true. Tragically untactikewl.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 1:39:08 PM EDT
[#31]

Quoted:
Gee, and all I take to class with my Ak is ammo and mags....hmm.....I guess I'm missing something?



If you're not gonna contribute to this thread stay out.  

That's what you're missing.


BTW I've heard of plenty of AK's going down in class.  Don't get me wrong I love my AK but they have their fare share of problems also.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 1:43:23 PM EDT
[#32]

Quoted:
I saw a Colt AR completely take a shit (over and over) at a class I attended in Pittsburgh last year. A Bushy kept sticking M855 cases.

Know what that means? Diddly shit.

My cobbled-together franken-Stag (with no other known parts of any quality) has never failed during a class or match. Ever.

Know what that means? Diddly shit.


You speak the truth brother.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 1:44:28 PM EDT
[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Gee, and all I take to class with my Ak is ammo and mags....hmm.....I guess I'm missing something?

Probably the target


Classic.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 2:21:29 PM EDT
[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Gee, and all I take to class with my Ak is ammo and mags....hmm.....I guess I'm missing something?

Probably the target


Classic.


Owned.

Link Posted: 4/17/2007 2:24:40 PM EDT
[#35]

Quoted:

You should have spare parts on hand (Bolt, springs, extractors, firing pins, etc.)
 Or better yet, a spare weapon ready to go.


+1 on that. I bring a complete spare carbine and a set of replacement parts...full LPK, complete BCG, buffer spring, a couple buffers [carbine, H and 9mm], etc....so far, outside of my LMT bolt failure, I haven't had to ever go to my spare (or parts) though I have patched together a few other people's carbines.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 3:25:20 PM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Gee, and all I take to class with my Ak is ammo and mags....hmm.....I guess I'm missing something?

Probably the target


Link Posted: 4/17/2007 4:09:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Been my experience at classes that after about 500 rounds they seperate the AR men from the boys (AR problems start happening).  Did you see any of the POF or other piston versions ?  They are suppose to be the ultimate in reliability - larry have any comment or opinon on these ?

Thanks for the post as your right I've been one of the boys with AR failures and bought a POF for just that reason.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 4:11:26 PM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:
Gee, and all I take to class with my Ak is ammo and mags....hmm.....I guess I'm missing something?


See swingset's post.  It applies to you too.  
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 4:49:30 PM EDT
[#39]
I enjoyed the Vickers class I attended.  The only problem I had was with some magazines.  Mr. Vickers was kind enough to point out that they were crap.  (No they were not C-products mags)
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 4:57:54 PM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:
I saw a Colt AR completely take a shit (over and over) at a class I attended in Pittsburgh last year. A Bushy kept sticking M855 cases.

Know what that means? Diddly shit.

My cobbled-together franken-Stag (with no other known parts of any quality) has never failed during a class or match. Ever.

Know what that means? Diddly shit.


WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 6:11:11 PM EDT
[#41]

Quoted:
That DPMS....I bet it has too shallow or too tight of a chamber....IIRC Pat Rogers detailed these about a SWAT team that had the same problems.  


I've seen two DPMS barrels/uppers like that.  One wouldn't even fully feed a round, even with a little help from the FA.  Waaaaaaaaay to shallow.  I'd never recommend DPMS for anybody who even remotely thinks they may need to depend on it sometime in the future.  Let the shitstorm begin.


BTW, seen 'em all shit at one time or another.  Nobody's immune.  They need to be shot to their sweet spot when new and they'll run there for a long time befoe they start to puke from age.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 1:23:19 AM EDT
[#42]

Quoted:
I'd never recommend DPMS for anybody who even remotely thinks they may need to depend on it sometime in the future.  Let the shitstorm begin.


Oh...now you've done it!
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 1:42:55 AM EDT
[#43]

Quoted:
I'm surprised the LMT malfunctioned...


I'm not. The 10.5" & 11.5" guns have always been problematic.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 1:49:07 AM EDT
[#44]

Quoted:
I saw a Colt AR completely take a shit (over and over) at a class I attended in Pittsburgh last year. A Bushy kept sticking M855 cases.

Know what that means? Diddly shit.

My cobbled-together franken-Stag (with no other known parts of any quality) has never failed during a class or match. Ever.

Know what that means? Diddly shit.


word(s of wisdom)
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 9:34:05 AM EDT
[#45]

Quoted:
Went to my first Vickers pistol/carbine class this weekend.  Fantastic learning experience by the way...

A 16" DPMS AP4 went down hard during the night shoot.  Was continuously double feeding from what I could see.

My Eagle 16" A4 AR10 had numerous FTF and FTE all weekend.  Mostly as the gun was heated up.  Shooter was using usgi M80 ball.  So we could rule out any ammo problems...  Good news was I wasn't shooting it.

And finally an LMT MRP 10.5 went down hard on the last day.  Stopped cycling completely.  Didn't get a good chance to find out the details.

All and all a friggin' fantastic class that really shows the stuff that YOU will need to master to become an effective shooter.  

Coop


Ive shot rifles from Colt and FN at work and DPMS on my own. the DPMS is the only one that has never malfunctioned. The Colts and FNs usually malfunction for one of two reasons: too dirty from firing too many blanks or a bad magazine. Ive got a personally owned mag in my LBV right now that needs to be segregated out of my kit. I'll figure it out at AT.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 11:03:38 AM EDT
[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm surprised the LMT malfunctioned...


I'm not. The 10.5" & 11.5" guns have always been problematic.


I guess you haven't been around for a few years.....
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 11:09:06 AM EDT
[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm surprised the LMT malfunctioned...


I'm not. The 10.5" & 11.5" guns have always been problematic.


I guess you haven't been around for a few years.....


If you believe 10.5" & 11.5" ARs are as reliable as 14.5" & 16" you are wrong. Can a 11.5" SBR be made reliable, yes. But do they overall have more problems than the longer brled carbines, yes they do.

There is a whole industry supported by the quest for short brl AR reliability. Adjustable gas blocks, pigtail gas tubes, varying buffer weights, enhanced exrtractor parts.

Buy 100 new 11.5" ARs and 100 16" ARs from the same manufacturer and i guarentee the 11.5s will be more problematic.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 11:25:32 AM EDT
[#48]
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Quoted:
That DPMS....I bet it has too shallow or too tight of a chamber....IIRC Pat Rogers detailed these about a SWAT team that had the same problems.  


I've seen two DPMS barrels/uppers like that.  One wouldn't even fully feed a round, even with a little help from the FA.  Waaaaaaaaay to shallow.  I'd never recommend DPMS for anybody who even remotely thinks they may need to depend on it sometime in the future.  Let the shitstorm begin.hit
that's the opposite of what I observed in 2 classes, the DPMS's ran just fine with other manufacturers having problems and that was mostly ammo or magazine problems anyway.... only 1 major problem and that was a Colt...
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 12:18:01 PM EDT
[#49]
I have had most of my rifles, AR's and AK's go down at some point when ridden hard in difficult conditions. That is why a real skill is knowing your platform and how to assess a problem and fix it quickly in the field, weather that is with a tool/lube, replacement part, or your boot.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 1:01:59 PM EDT
[#50]
whats so much different about the class, than going to the range and blasting all day long?
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