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Posted: 10/24/2004 8:17:31 AM EDT
Hey guys. I have a bit of a situation here with buying my gun that I would like some advice on. I bought a stripped lower reciever and had it shipped to my FFL about a month ago.
They finally get it and I go to pick it up and they tell me that I need a permit to purchase a handgun in order to buy it because it is an assault type weapon. I tell them that since I am 20, I wont be able to get a permit. They assure me that regardless of the federal law that prevents me from buying a handgun, under state law I can still legally get my permit.
Off to the PD I go then. Fill out my forms and I'm on my way (after the clerk tells me they will deny me because I am not 21).
Well, I got a nice letter from my local PD today saying:

"blah blah blah DENIED because: Federal Law prohibits anyone under the age of 21 to purchase handguns.
Federal Firearms Regulations 18 U.S.C. 922 ( B ) (1)."

I live in Minnesota. I wonder if my PD is in the wrong or if my FFL is in the wrong. I spoke with them both about the issue and they are just pointing fingers the other direction.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:27:26 AM EDT
Did you order this as a pistol lower?

Is that your intent, to build pistol?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:30:37 AM EDT
Nope, not at all. I bought it for the 16" M4 upper that I already have. I even told my FFL that it was for a rifle and would be registered as such.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:44:51 AM EDT
Sounds like your FFL doesn't know what he's talking about. I've been ordering Lowers since I was 19 (which was 4 months ago)

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:52:24 AM EDT
yer FFL like all to many is a moron!! I bought my stripped lower a few weeks after I turned 18
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:56:43 AM EDT
Does your state have some kind of state law linking assault weapons and pistols or making assault weapon purchases require 21 yoa?

If not, your FFL is a moron.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:06:12 AM EDT
In spite of what everyone else here is telling you I think your FFL is a Moron .

This is no different than buying a Marlin 30-30 or Remington long rifle in the Feds eyes. If you're sure there are no MN state laws regarding this purchase you FFL is on dope.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:09:04 AM EDT
You might want to put Minnesota in your thread title or go to the MN hometown forums and post if you haven't already. Never heard that MN had a law like that, but I wouldn't be suprised if an FFL was uninformed.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:13:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Does your state have some kind of state law linking assault weapons and pistols or making assault weapon purchases require 21 yoa?

If not, your FFL is a moron.

Other way around, MN requires a pistol purchase permit to buy an "assault weapon". Even if said AW is a rifle. Had to fill one out when I got my DPMS back in '99. The MN legislatures way of getting around having to pass a law raising the age to 21 for so-called AW's.

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:30:47 AM EDT
So you're saying my FFL is correct and I need to take this up with my local PD?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:39:33 AM EDT
there is legally no such thing as an assault weapon i thought any more?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:47:43 AM EDT
A stripped receiver is not an "assault weapon" until you build it into such, tell him you are building a new bolt action kit that uses the AR platform. Don't laugh, there is such a kit, .50BMG.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:58:57 AM EDT
Just have your Dad go pick it up.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 10:00:06 AM EDT
Odds are the FFL is right. Where I live pre-bans are still legally considered to be "assault weapons", and you need a pistol permit to get any type of rifle that can hold ten rounds, or can be modified to hold ten rounds.

You're probably just going to have to wait a year.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 10:04:22 AM EDT
I went to one of my local FFLs to purchase a stripped receiver and they informed me that all of their stripped receivers ger registered as pistols as they have no way to determine if you are building a rifle or pistol. I think they came to that decision based on the T/C Contender and Encore but they do it with both AR-15s and AR-10s as well.

It was fine by me as I wanted it done as a pistol...

Do you have an upper and stock? If so, take these parts and see if he will then do it as a rifle. Also, depending on your state lays you may be able to have your parents buy it and then they can sell iot to you later but nbe careful with that as it needs to be clear that your parent is buying it for THEM for now as otherwise that is a "Straw Purchase" and it can get you into some serious trouble...

Funny how some guys can't get an FFL to declare a receiver a pistol and here is a guy that just wants a rifle receiver but the FFL wan'ts to do it as a pistol
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 11:56:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 11:58:46 AM EDT by CVD]
I spoke with my FFL for a while about it. He said that I could buy the 50BMG bolt action he had on the wall but that I couldnt buy any of his M4 rifles off the wall because they were semi autos with a detachable mag in front of the trigger. Not without a permit to purchase anyway.

And I'm not going to make my dad apply for a permit to purchase just so he can go get it for me. If he already had one I would ask.
I'm deffinately not going to wait a year while my FFL sits on my gun parts. I can supposedly purchase and own this rifle according to state and federal law, so there has to be some way to clear this up.

Another note is that the clerk at the PD claimed that my FFL simply did not want to pay for the background check and that is why he wanted me to get a permit.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:16:24 PM EDT
It appears your state law is fuzzy enough WRT assualt weapons that even if you take possesion of the receiver, you run the risk of having a zelous LEO confiscate it should you be stopped with it.

State laws can be more strict than federal laws, this is the case in many locals.

Looks like you are screwed till you turn 21.

And states can define "assault weapon" any way they see fit, just ask California, and the applicable N Eastern states.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:22:54 PM EDT
Have your dad buy it for you. Or sell it to a board member, and have him go take it from the FFL, and dbuy one private sale.

My dad gives me lots of guns as gifts. I appreciate this so much I give him gifts of large sums of cash. We're just like that
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:24:53 PM EDT
Even if they call it an assault type weapon, I can still own it under 21. I just cant buy it without a permit to purchase. So I wonder if my PD is just ignorant of the state laws. My FFL specifiacally said that they legally MUST issue a permit to purchase to any eligable person over the age of 18. Is there a way for me to find this somewhere in writing so I can prove it to the PD if it is true?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:27:24 PM EDT
Another thing, I do have a buddy that would most likely do for me what Combat Jack describes. Would there be any legal issues to worry about with this? I had thought I would be running into the same permit issue if I were to try to do it legally.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:28:59 PM EDT
If you haven't paid for it, leave it there. If you paid for it, get a refund. If it is your FFL's fault, find another FFL, if it is your fault because they are following the law, just wait.

After this, figure out your state laws and your FFL a bit better. This is why most of us have certain FFLs that we deal with, we know we won't get shafted by them.

Post this thread in your state section, see if your local people can help you figure it out.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:33:29 PM EDT

Minnesota law does require a permit to purchase, a permit to carry will also serve as a permit to purchase.

Check out the above link, it may help to answer your questions.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:48:07 PM EDT
or the pump action upper for use in CA

Originally Posted By Jimmy_Hoffa:
A stripped receiver is not an "assault weapon" until you build it into such, tell him you are building a new bolt action kit that uses the AR platform. Don't laugh, there is such a kit, .50BMG.

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:02:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CVD:
Another thing, I do have a buddy that would most likely do for me what Combat Jack describes. Would there be any legal issues to worry about with this? I had thought I would be running into the same permit issue if I were to try to do it legally.

It is unlawful to state on the Form 4473 that you are buying it for yourself when you are not. He would have to lie, which is a felony. Nobody makes a big deal about this when its parents buying for children, but for this they may take ya'll to task. Funny thing is, the law doesn't say that its illegal to buy a firearm for someone, unless they are a prohibited person, e.g. a felon or wifebeater.

Have your parents do it or buy one private party.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:22:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:34:16 PM EDT
In MN you have to be at least 18 to posses an AW or a pistol and 21 to buy either from a licensed dealer. I had the same problem when I bought my armalite, there is no way around it. I just had one of my parents pick it up for me.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 2:43:46 PM EDT
MN did define an AR as an assault weapon, I think by features from the former fed ban, but not sure. You can buy them with all the evil features, but you would need a permit to purchase to get one. Under previous law, you used to be able to get one to buy assault style rifles and not handguns if you were over 18 and under 21. I would ask about that, becuase I knew people that had one of these permits a couple years ago.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 2:51:44 PM EDT
It is NOT unlawful, on the federal level, for your family member or someone else to purchase the item and then give it to you as a GIFT (Items of Interest #16) IF THERE ARE NO LAWS BANNING YOU FROM OWNING THE WEAPON. That is written plain as day on the back of the 4473 in regards to question 1, are you buying the weapon for yourself, or however they phrase it. If you are buying the weapon to give as a gift, then that is not a straw purchase. If someone else, such as a close family member buys the item then makes it a "gift" to you, that is not a straw purchase. If you give money to someone else and they buy it for you, that IS a straw purchase. Since gifts are given between family members normally, if you have your father, mother, sister, brother buy the weapon they can legally give it to you as a gift. I would not use a friend as friends, at least none that I have run across, normally give firearms as gifts and that could be very sticky.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 9:20:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 9:53:10 PM EDT by caneau]
Here's another idea. I'm not sure how Minnesota laws work, but in both Nevada and Illinois if you are a resident of a neighboring state, you can legally purchase a firearm without having it shipped to your FFL in your home state.
So, CVD, what you can do is drive over to any neighboring state (Wisconsin would probably be your best bet although I'd double check with the laws there too) and buy an AR lower there, put it in your trunk, and drive back to Minnesota. If the laws are phrased in such a way where you can posess but not buy, then everything you've done is legal. You legally purchased a firearm in another state for private usage and were in posession of it when you entered Minnesota.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 11:16:01 AM EDT
I dug up the laws on this and here is what I found:

From Minnesota Statutes 2004: http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/624/7131.html
624.7131 Transferee permit; penalty.

Subdivision 1. Information. Any person may apply for
a transferee permit by providing the following information in
writing to the chief of police of an organized full time police
department of the municipality in which the person resides or to
the county sheriff if there is no such local chief of police:

Subd. 4. Grounds for disqualification. A
determination by the chief of police or sheriff that the
applicant is prohibited by section 624.713 from possessing a
pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon shall be
the only basis for refusal to grant a transferee permit.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. What does section 624.713 have to say about it? Why this:

MN Statutes - 624.713
Subdivision 1. Ineligible persons. The following
persons shall not be entitled to possess a pistol or
semiautomatic military-style assault weapon or, except for
clause (a), any other firearm:

(a) a person under the age of 18 years except that a person
under 18 may carry or possess a pistol or semiautomatic
military-style assault weapon (i) in the actual presence or
under the direct supervision of the person's parent or guardian,
(ii) for the purpose of military drill under the auspices of a
legally recognized military organization and under competent
supervision, (iii) for the purpose of instruction, competition,
or target practice on a firing range approved by the chief of
police or county sheriff in whose jurisdiction the range is
located and under direct supervision; or (iv) if the person has
successfully completed a course designed to teach marksmanship
and safety with a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault
weapon and approved by the commissioner of natural resources;

So I highlighted these sections and brought the complete laws into my PD. The clerk there read them over and STILL had the guts to argue with me. Saying that because it is against federal law for me to buy a handgun, they cant issue the permit because the permit specifically states that I can "Legally purchase a pistol from a federally licensed firearms dealer"
I then tried to explain to her that I could own these guns, I could even buy these guns, I could be transferred these guns from other people, but that it would be illegal for them to SELL me one regardless of what the permit said.

They said they would "look it over and get back to me." I'm about to take it up with the district court, but I hesitate because I dont know how long it will take if I go that route.

In all I am simply stunned by the amount of bullheaded willful ignorance displayed by my police department.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 9:52:40 PM EDT
I'm not saying police officers don't know the law but look at it this way. The average cop has a year or two at an academy and maybe an associates degree in criminal justice. The average lawyer has an undergraduate degree and 2-4 years of law school plus another year or two to pass the bar exam. Even so, lawyers need to reaserch old cases and look up laws occasionally. Do you really expect some clerk at a local police station to understand the intricacies of firearms law? I don't. If you can fight it out and win in distict court, more power to you. Just be warned, you might be 21 by the time your case comes around. All I can tell you is to either go to another FFL who will do the transfer or buy it in another state (if you can). As long as your lower is forged, they're all pretty much the same with the exception of Colt.
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