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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/18/2005 5:45:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 5:54:16 AM EDT by jjniven]
Are there any possible ways to improve the AR based on all the current upgrades it has went through? The only possible option I see is reconfiguring the Bolt Release Button, but that would probably have to completely remanufacturer the receiver just for an ease of use function.

Is there anything the AR is lacking now? How much further can we go with new products without creating a new gun, adding "toys" or making a new AR designation?

We have upgraded with:
- Free Floating Rail systems
- Collapsible Buttstocks
- 1,2, and 3 point sling attachment points
- Flash Hiders that nearly eliminate flash or sign of fire
- Rubberized and Storage Compartments in the Pistol Grip
- M4 Feedramps
- Twist ratios to fit all needs, 1:7, 1:9, etc...
- Flattop Uppers for accessories and optics
- T-marks for retaining zero on optics and accessories
- Iron Sights (folding and stationary)
- Enhanced Bolt Carriers (Not 100% reliable yet)
- Charging handle latches (Badgers, PRIs)
- Triggers 1 and 2 stage
- Bayonet Lug
- Anti-roll pins
- Green Mag Followers

I believe this should be a bare minimum in an AR carbine or rifle platform. You can add toys later per job requirements. Lights, Foreward grips, Lasers, Tonka Trucks
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:52:09 AM EDT
The bolt release is fine the way it is, and the M4 feedramps work as designed. If you have never used anything other than regular ammo, and never had a dirty weapon, fired full auto, or any number of things, I guess you wouldn't see a need for it.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:54:22 AM EDT
nope, the ar is perfect.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:54:41 AM EDT
What was the original reasoning behind letting the powder block back into the bolt through the gas rods?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:58:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 6:02:10 AM EDT by donovan007007]
if you think that the bolt release is a problem.........here is the solution.





you put the oversized slappy on over the special drilled mag release supplied and it makes it even bigger. I have been wanting to get one but I am not going to pay shipping on that one part, I guess I am waiting to purchase a larger order to save money.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:09:43 AM EDT
I think you left out some important designs (in no particular order and still probably incomplete):

LMT MRP
MGI QCB
POF piston
LW piston
Pistol caliber uppers
Cav Arms lowers
Alexander Arms uppers
Tromix Uppers
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:23:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By donovan007007:
if you think that the bolt release is a problem.........here is the solution.


www.brownells.com/Images/Products/965000037.jpg


you put the oversized slappy on over the special drilled mag release supplied and it makes it even bigger. I have been wanting to get one but I am not going to pay shipping on that one part, I guess I am waiting to purchase a larger order to save money.


It's not the size of the release as much as the location. Personally, I think it's fine, but others may say it slows down reload time by a few seconds.


Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:
I think you left out some important designs (in no particular order and still probably incomplete):

LMT MRP
MGI QCB
POF piston
LW piston
Pistol caliber uppers
Cav Arms lowers
Alexander Arms uppers
Tromix Uppers



I was going for non-brand upgrades that would make flexibility a priority and able to swap out the most parts without changing complete parts.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:31:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 6:38:32 AM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:43:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
We have a stack of improvements to the AR platform in the hopper right now.

These are not just gadgets or appearance items.

The MGI QCB was just the prelude to what is in store here.

We are introducing full modularity to the AR design, and there are big changes to the basic platform. Still very familiar look, feel, and operation, but added usefulness thru modular features.

The AR will be a very different, but still familiar, gun platform by the end of this year.

Here's a "sneak peek" of one of the major improvements coming out soon. It's a fully modular lower receiver with interchangeable magwells which can be installed for any caliber/magazine you want to use with your appropriate barrel changes. AR and AK magwells shown.
Yes, it is PATENTED!
photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=53166&iGalleryUnq=1956&iImageUnq=39497



Very ingenius! That's what I'm talking about, upgrades like these that remain an AR, just much more functionality and flexibility.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 1:38:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 2:04:08 PM EDT by jjniven]
btt
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 2:01:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 2:18:28 PM EDT by donovan007007]
TAGGERED.................for home
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 2:04:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By donovan007007:
TAGGERED



You can't tag.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 2:07:11 PM EDT
IMHO, the only thing wrong with the original 5.56mm AR platform is that there isn't a big enough hole at the "Business End".

Tack
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 2:21:16 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 2:25:05 PM EDT
Caliber - the AR needs a larger caliber. Perhaps not 308 Winchester, becauswe that takes you to an AR-10 platform, rather I'm thinking of something that works in an AR-15 receiver and magazine.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 2:27:17 PM EDT
Twl,
Good idea on the modular magwell. I posted that idea about a year and a half ago and I'm glad to see someone doing it. I'm assuing 5.56, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 magwells & uppers to match? Registered portion is the rear, FCG portion?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:53:18 PM EDT
piston-driven, belt fed

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:15:32 PM EDT
There is an improved AR design...it's called an AK-47 !
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:25:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
We have a stack of improvements to the AR platform in the hopper right now.

These are not just gadgets or appearance items.

The MGI QCB was just the prelude to what is in store here.

We are introducing full modularity to the AR design, and there are big changes to the basic platform. Still very familiar look, feel, and operation, but added usefulness thru modular features.

The AR will be a very different, but still familiar, gun platform by the end of this year.

Here's a "sneak peek" of one of the major improvements coming out soon. It's a fully modular lower receiver with interchangeable magwells which can be installed for any caliber/magazine you want to use with your appropriate barrel changes. AR and AK magwells shown.
Yes, it is PATENTED!
photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=53166&iGalleryUnq=1956&iImageUnq=39497


TWL are those solar panels on the stock it that photo?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:49:25 PM EDT
YES!!!!!! one thing all my guns need for improvement!!!!!! A fun switch(FA)
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:17:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metoo:
There is an improved AR design...it's called an AK-47 !


how did I know someone was going to say that.......................
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:28:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 7:29:37 PM EDT by safetyhit]

Originally Posted By metoo:
There is an improved AR design...it's called an AK-47 !



Even though I have an AK, I still despise the design as that of the enemy. I just can't help it. My AR is by far my favorite.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:50:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
What was the original reasoning behind letting the powder block back into the bolt through the gas rods?



Weight. Accuracy. Reliability.

A gas tube is lighter than an operating rod. This also keeps the reciprocating mass closer to the bore line. This helps in accuracy too because of reciprocating mass moves the rifle before the bullet exits the bore.

Accuracy. There is no induced vibration on the barrel from the action.

Reliabilty. Greater gas can be diverted to the action without fear of bending the op rod.

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:26:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
What was the original reasoning behind letting the powder block back into the bolt through the gas rods?


.......

Reliabilty. Greater gas can be diverted to the action without fear of bending the op rod.




Oh come on....we all know that rifles with op rods are generally more (sometimes MUCH more) reliable than AR's, especially when filthy dirty.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:52:42 PM EDT
Theoretically, everything can be improved. But I think that the AR is good the way that it is. Why screw with something that works? Everytime we try to replace something that works we wind up going back to the original. (e.g. ARs, 1911s) And IMHO the perfect caliber was created about 100 years ago in the 7MM Mauser. An AR in that caliber would be AWSOME.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 9:28:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 9:28:37 PM EDT by ROMAD-556]
You left out trigger guards....we now have several improved trigger guards
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 9:35:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metoo:
There is an improved AR design...it's called an AK-47 ! Sig 551.



Fixed it for ya. You're welcome...sometimes I don't think before I post either.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 10:12:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drew5337:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
What was the original reasoning behind letting the powder block back into the bolt through the gas rods?


.......

Reliabilty. Greater gas can be diverted to the action without fear of bending the op rod.




Oh come on....we all know that rifles with op rods are generally more (sometimes MUCH more) reliable than AR's, especially when filthy dirty.



But to do so with a LIGHTWEIGHT rilfe DEMANDS one have a user-adjustable gas system. Sure, you can make the op rod large enough that it will not bend but then the weight would be greater and accuracy suffers because all that reciprocating mass causes the barrel to move before the bullet exits the barrel.

The M14/M1/M1A all require SPECIFIC ammunition. No, you cannot fire 220 grain hunting ammo in a Garand. And reloading for any of the above rifles requires propellents faster than IMR4064, limiting the performance.

An infantryman cannot carry enough ammo to cause the M16 platform to malfunction unless it is loaded with crappy, 3rd world propellents. In this manner the AR is "finicky" but using proper propellents, one can fire it with all bullet weights from 40 to 90 grain bullets using propellents ranging in burn rate from IMR4198 to IMR4350. I have put a casefull of IMR4831 behind a 55 grain bullet. Functioned fine. Even 12 grains of Blue Dot functioned with a stock system.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:01:33 AM EDT
Tag...nice post Keith_J.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 10:34:47 AM EDT
Improvements...
An elcro magnetic bolt system, eliminating the entire gas system
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:40:51 PM EDT
The ONLY thing wrong with the m.16 is the gas system,change the to the piston sys and you have an out stanfing system,P.S.useing the heavier grain bullet.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:43:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By metoo:
There is an improved AR design...it's called an AK-47 ! Sig 551.



Fixed it for ya. You're welcome...sometimes I don't think before I post either.



Sig 551 is definately inferior to the new redesigned AR15 variants out there. There is no question about that to anyone who is being realistic. I give teh 551 the nod on folding stock for storage and... well its inferior in every other way for users here in the continetal United States.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 6:22:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PROVO:
The ONLY thing wrong with the m.16 is the gas system,change the to the piston sys and you have an out stanfing system,P.S.useing the heavier grain bullet.



It already HAS a piston. The bolt is the piston, the carrier the cylinder.

All "grains" are the same, 1/7000 of a pound. No such thing as a "heavier grain".

But if you are saying the AR "needs" an op-rod system, that would decrease the accuracy, increase the weight and lower the reliability.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 7:05:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By metoo:
There is an improved AR design...it's called an AK-47 ! Sig 551.



Fixed it for ya. You're welcome...sometimes I don't think before I post either.



Sig 551 is definately inferior to the new redesigned AR15 variants out there. There is no question about that to anyone who is being realistic. I give teh 551 the nod on folding stock for storage and... well its inferior in every other way for users here in the continetal United States.



Throw that AR in the mud, then freeze it, then put some Barnaul lacquer coated crap in it and see if it'll fire. I love the AR, they're great rifles - but they won't run under the conditions the 551 will, and that reliability doesn't come at the expense of the Sig losing accuracy. Ever seen the tests the Swiss put the Stg90 through? It's unbelievable....seriously.

Yes, it's not quite as ergonomic as the AR - but only in mag-changes and overall weight (although most commercial AR's come in heavy too with fat barrels). Everything else is on par, I'd say. They're quite comfortable rifles to shoot and in full auto, FWIW.

I give the AR nod with modularity, but if we had a 551 here in the states at AR prices - bet your ass we'd have every bell and whistle available to make them like an AR in that dept.

Every rifle has weaknesses - but I think the 55X series is about as good of a compromise between accuracy and reliability that's ever been fielded, without being a unwieldy pig like an AK.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:30:06 PM EDT
Funny, Uncle Sam didn't give me any laquer-covered ammo to use in the M16 they issued me. But they provided all the mud, sand, water, dust and ice I could stand. I've seen M16's floating muzzle-down in waist-deep water and they still functioned.

I doubt if ANY magazine-fed rifle will finction with magazines full of dirt and mud. And there are NO chambers that are loose enough to pass ammo covered with sand and mud. Not a one.

Having a bolt open to the elements and without any provision for closing the openings is a receipe for disaster.

You know that little sprung hinged cover? Its a good thing.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:42:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 9:43:16 PM EDT by Sigurd]

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Funny, Uncle Sam didn't give me any laquer-covered ammo to use in the M16 they issued me. But they provided all the mud, sand, water, dust and ice I could stand. I've seen M16's floating muzzle-down in waist-deep water and they still functioned.



They must have provided me with more sand than you then, because of all the M16s I was issued in the service, every one of them choked at some point except one that was broken in almost to the point of being worn out).


I doubt if ANY magazine-fed rifle will finction with magazines full of dirt and mud. And there are NO chambers that are loose enough to pass ammo covered with sand and mud. Not a one.



Agreed.



Having a bolt open to the elements and without any provision for closing the openings is a receipe for disaster.



Yeah, this is such a problem in with the AK-47 and the Garand, among others



You know that little sprung hinged cover? Its a good thing.



The M16 needs it, most rifles don't.

To claim that gas impingement offers increased reliability over a piston/op rod system is just absurd.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:39:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XM15Carbine:
TWL are those solar panels on the stock it that photo?



If this is the upper that Mack handed me at the SHOT show this year, then YES, those are solar panels.
I forget the reasoning, but they might be setup to charge the rechargable batteries in the SOPMOD stock.
Think about it, store the rifle in your cruiser so it takes sunlight all day.
Spare batteries are kept topped off.
Rotate batteries into any device that needs them and put the used batteries back into the charging bay in the stock.
It could have been something like this, but I forget what Mack said...

Randall Rausch
www.ar15barrels.com
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:07:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:23:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
man, all the toys listed and none of the true problems examined.



Who is this Tweak guy?
He keeps following me around these forums and posting over my last post...
Shouldn't you be in bed?

Randall
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:41:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 12:42:51 AM EDT by blackjack333]
BAM there ya go


Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:42:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Funny, Uncle Sam didn't give me any laquer-covered ammo to use in the M16 they issued me. But they provided all the mud, sand, water, dust and ice I could stand. I've seen M16's floating muzzle-down in waist-deep water and they still functioned.

I doubt if ANY magazine-fed rifle will finction with magazines full of dirt and mud. And there are NO chambers that are loose enough to pass ammo covered with sand and mud. Not a one.

Having a bolt open to the elements and without any provision for closing the openings is a receipe for disaster.

You know that little sprung hinged cover? Its a good thing.



Ok, so you got me. Systemically, the AR platform is more reliable than a Sig55X.

I just made it up, and you got me.

Lookie, I love AR's and for what they do well, they have no equal. But, they have weaknesses and some of those weaknesses are remedied by other guns - I cite the Stg90 as a gun that boasts trememdous reliability without sacrificing accuracy, apparently you disagree. Fine. How many Sigs have you shot or compared under adverse conditions? Probably about the same as me so don't feel supreme in your opinion.

Here's Biggerhammer's techdata and testing on the Sig....read it it's pretty interesting:

www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 3:50:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 3:54:19 AM EDT by jixxerbeast]
Personally I would like my AR to be 7.62X39 but with 30rd mags, if that were ever aftermarketed,
7.62upper w/30rd mags, it would be perfect in my eyes.and someone will post this pic of an AK with AR furniture while bitching about my grammer and punctuation but I dont like plastic furniture that is put on AK's it makes them look like AR drag queens. well on second glace that looks pretty bad ass [eat-own-words]
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:02:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 5:09:03 AM EDT by Atreides]

Originally Posted By jjniven:
Are there any possible ways to improve the AR based on all the current upgrades it has went through? The only possible option I see is reconfiguring the Bolt Release Button, but that would probably have to completely remanufacturer the receiver just for an ease of use function.

Is there anything the AR is lacking now? How much further can we go with new products without creating a new gun, adding "toys" or making a new AR designation?

We have upgraded with:
- Free Floating Rail systems
- Collapsible Buttstocks
- 1,2, and 3 point sling attachment points
- Flash Hiders that nearly eliminate flash or sign of fire
- Rubberized and Storage Compartments in the Pistol Grip
- M4 Feedramps
- Twist ratios to fit all needs, 1:7, 1:9, etc...
- Flattop Uppers for accessories and optics
- T-marks for retaining zero on optics and accessories
- Iron Sights (folding and stationary)
- Enhanced Bolt Carriers (Not 100% reliable yet)
- Charging handle latches (Badgers, PRIs)
- Triggers 1 and 2 stage
- Bayonet Lug
- Anti-roll pins
- Green Mag Followers

I believe this should be a bare minimum in an AR carbine or rifle platform. You can add toys later per job requirements. Lights, Foreward grips, Lasers, Tonka Trucks



Well, most of those accessories do enhance the AR15. I'm not going to argue that. But the question at hand is "Can the AR platform be improved?" and the answer is, yes. Every design has traits that can be improved upon. No weapon is perfect. The HK416 may be the newest encarnation of designs similar to the AR15 format but it still utilizes the 5.56mm X 45mm round that some will argue is the main fault having to do with the AR15's original design.

I guess the same question could be put in another way: "Has the AR15 design peaked to the point where it is at the end of it's road?" Alot of people think so, or at least thought so which prompted the Government to look into other designs like the XM8 chambered in 6.8mm. The AR15 is an old design and has been in service for over 3 decades but it has lasted this long for a reason: it served it's purpose. The AR's gas system is a problem that was addressed with the HK416, and it seems like the whole railed upper for accessories thing has found it's way into fundimental weapon design, but what does this all mean for the AR15?

Well, in my humble opinion the AR15's design has peaked, and it has turned the corner to obsolete. That does not mean that I think of the AR15 as junk, but the basic design has seen its day and all the design can look forward to is "Band Aid" fixes and add-on's to squeeze as much life out of it as possible. Of course this is from a Government point of view, the AR still has life in the civilian market and will continue to have it for years to come. That may not be a nice thing to hear for AR fans, but like the musket, everything has its day, and then it is replaced.

As far as the AK47 being a superior weapon to the AR15, well, I don't agree with that view at all. The AK is certainly more prolific and can still be seen being used by military forces along with it's newer encarnation the AK74 all over the world, but this is due to the AK design being cheaper to produce than the AR15 and doesn't have much to do with the quality of either gun. Both guns have their good points and bad, but in no way is an AK47 (7.62mm X 39mm) superior to an AR15.

BUT...out of a short barrel I have to admit that the Commie guns have an advantage over the AR Carbines in ballistics in both the 7.62 X 39 and the 5.45's.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:22:28 AM EDT
Very Nice Post! I guess that is what I was leaning more towards the fact that the AR is as good as it's gonna get and there is not much more it CAN do without us making a new gun.
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